New PB105 setup

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Delta-T

Minister of Fire
Feb 27, 2008
3,146
NH
again, I'm no plumber, but the water volume through the machine is limited by the pipe size and the circulator GPM, so, as long as neither of those is oversized you shouldn't have any problems with getting the water over that 140 and up to 185 if you so desire. Do you know what the return temps are?
 

Wayne64SS

New Member
Oct 15, 2008
97
Upstate NY
No I don't. It's been too long for me to remember accurately. I can provide the circulator model # when I get home. I know that it's an older taco.
 

Sting

Feeling the Heat
Jan 8, 2008
477
Wisconsin
Sting said:
and second you are (likely) circulating too fast thru the PB105 and the water is not able to pick up the energy available -- so the boiler is running cold

guessing here -- need more info - but if I am correct you need a valve on the supply side of that circulator and you need to use it to choke the flow so the Harmon has a chance to do its job -
 

Wayne64SS

New Member
Oct 15, 2008
97
Upstate NY
Sting I could just put a ball valve in right??

Let me ask you this..... currently my "overheat zone" just consists of a variable speed circulator on the outlet of the PB. It has it's check valve removed. Could I just swap circulator wires and use the variable speed on its lowest setting and keep my taco where it is and use that as my "overheat zone"??

I think you guys really need to see this setup to believe it. I will take pics and make an accurate digram when I get home tonight.
 

Sting

Feeling the Heat
Jan 8, 2008
477
Wisconsin
Your original drawing does not show this "overheat zone or the second circulator! This could also be a impact on the appliance performance. Its no fun writing advice when the system parameters are a moving target. I am gently reminded why I stopped posting on Hearth - This and "competing" with folks that write advice and have no clue how your appliance is even shipped from the factory, or how to pipe a simple system, with full disclosure that they don't have a clue - but they keep posting advice regardless. :roll:

I think Ill just go back to lurking and sort of missing IBC.

Kind Regards
Sting
 

Delta-T

Minister of Fire
Feb 27, 2008
3,146
NH
I should hope that these comments are not directed at me sir, for I have full understanding of how the PB105 ships from the factory. I'm not so sure we are "competing" though. You seem to think there is a deficiency in the design of the system and so that is what you address, bravo. I see an operational problem with the unit not being able to supply the energy needed to attain the desired temp, and so I address that. I disclose that I am not a plumber, but certainly not clueless. Besides, typing in condescending tones does nothing for your health

Wayne, it really would be best if you could explain, in its entirety, the design and flow of the system. Without this, any and all information anyone gives is an educated guess. small details can and will become big details when so many things must come together to do a job.
 

Wayne64SS

New Member
Oct 15, 2008
97
Upstate NY
Sting,

My original drawing was of a proposed new setup, not what is there currently. Below is a diagram of what is currently in the system, there are 7 radiators in the system, not 2, but i drew 2 to show how they are plumbed. They are connected to the primary loop with T connections that have arrows for which way the flow goes. I assume it's some kind of flow separator so some water will go through the loop, and some through the radiator. The majority of the primary loop is all old black steel pipe, including the Ts I mentioned. The DHW thing (I really have no idea WTF this thing is, but my DHW tank used to be plumbed into its inlet and outlet. I have since gotten rid of the DHW tank (tank housed the coil) so this is really a loop of pipe with nothing attached to it. (Plumber couldn't get it off its all real old cast iron).

This is literally ALL the equipment currently in the system except the actual water feed line which is plumbed into the bottom of DHW thing. The "overheat zone" IS the regular zone just with a different circulator (check removed). I have no idea why it was done like this, or what to do about it.

So lets regroup and start over. I have no idea what I'm doing. I DO NOT know how to make this work properly, but unfortunately nobody local can help. Here is what I asked my installer for:

1)Independant use of each boiler if I desire (I realize that because of the series plumbing one boiler is going to heat the other no matter what i do, I just want to prevent the oil boiler from trying to run while the PB is primary and not in a failed state.
2)I want my primary boiler to be the PB105, with the oiler as an automatic backup.

My oil boiler is not a "cold start" boiler and NEEDS to stay at temp, its super old and was not designed to hot / cold cycle. Because of this I am willing to sacrifice the stack losses incurred while using the PB to heat the oil boiler as well as the house.

CurrentBoilerSetup.png


I will post actual pics of this stuff when I get home later tonight.
 

Wayne64SS

New Member
Oct 15, 2008
97
Upstate NY
ok here we go here are some pics:

PB and oil boiler:

The red circulator you can see in the pic is a 3 speed design and is my "overheat zone". The plumbing comes out of the top of the PB and goes up and over into the front of the Oiler. The aquastat on the front of the oiler is the only one you can see and runs the only circulator(can't see it in this pic) for my heat zone.
IMAG0087.png




This picture is the output of the Oiler, which goes up out of that T, past the expansion tank and to the large black metal pipe that goes to the radiators. The big ass iron thing to the right of it used to have plumbing connected to it that went to my DHW tank, but that's been removed. I have no DHW running off a boiler.
IMAG0090.png




This picture is just another shot of that big ass cast iron thing, I'm going to call it a DHW coil for lack of a better term. You can see the cold water fill enters the system at the bottom of the DHW coil return to the boiler. The green circulator in the picture is the primary circulator for the zone (and only) and it is connected directly to the PB right there in the return line which comes from the return end of the large black metal pipe to the radiators.
IMAG0089.png




Another shot of the big ass cast iron thing. You can see where it was plugged is where the pipe to the DHW tank used to be. Top was hot feed bottom return cold.
IMAG0098.png




This is the model # and specs for the old oil boiler. You can see it is 131BTU gross and only 118btu net. This was when it was new mind you. God only knows how old it is, because he probably installed it.
IMAG0088.png




Here is a close up of what I think is a flow control and the expansion tank. These were never touched during the install of the PB.
IMAG0091.png




This is a picture of the inside cover of the aquastat on the oil boiler. This is the only aquastat in the system other than the one internal to the PB which only controls the PB itself.
IMAG0094.png




These are the setting inside that same aquastat. If you can't tell both settings are turned down as far as they can go. This is the only way I can get my oiler to stop running all the time.
IMAG0095.png




This is a picture of that green Taco brand circulator. This is my main and only circulator for the zone. As in the other pictures it is located directly at the back of the PB, on the return plumbing. If you can't read the model # it is 007-F5 It's specs are HP: 1/25 AMP: .70 HZ: 60 RPM: 3250 Voltage: 115 Max temp: 240deg F.
IMAG0097.png




Here is a pic of the "overheat zone" circulator which is a 3 speed and has it's check valve removed. The bottom left table shows the specs for each of the settings. I am unsure as to what the meant.
IMAG0096.png





Here is a pic of the large black metal T fittings that go off the main loop to and from the radiators. This particular one is a return as you can see the arrow points to the right, which is the way the flow goes.
IMAG0086.png




Here is a pic of one of the radiators. This one is in the bathroom and I believe it to be the smallest in the house. The bathroom is only 6x8. All the radiators are the same basic design, just varying in size.
DSC02461.png




I hope I have provided enough information, so that you nice folks can help me. Its starting to get cold and I'd like to get this handled. I appreciate everyone's time, thank you for joining me on the tour!!

Wayne
 

787MH

New Member
Nov 14, 2008
7
Vermont
I have a similiar installation. The PB 105 is in series with the oil burner. My dealer recommended that I install a 3/4 pipe with 007 circ going from the top of the OB to the return of the PB 105. This runs as long as the PB105 is above 140F as measured by a Honeywell Type L6006C strap on aquastate that is on the output of the PB. This keeps the OB hot and I am able to set the temps on the OB aquastate above the min that you are now using. I have the OAT option installed on the PB and run my PB 105 temps at 140F min and 185F Max. The PB 105 is a 114K BTU furnace it should easily heat your house.
Make sure you are getting a full burnpot and getting a flame that raps up and across the boiler tubes. You may have an obstruction that is keeping the pellets from getting to the burnpot. Adjust the feed rate. You don't want unburned pellets falling out. You do want the pellets about 1 inch from the lip.
Don't believe the temp guage on the PB 105 they are often in error. Better yet get your PB 105 dealer to come over and check the furnace with the Harman test computer. He will verify that it isn't your furnace.
Next I would check to see if you don't have air in the radiators. I see a bleed screw in the picture of the radiator. Bleed all the radiators.
Does the wall thermostat turn the circ on? Or does the OB need to be at temp for the circ to work.
When you turn the oil to 140 min 180 max does your house heat normally?
Are all the valves open?
I bet you will find your problem is easily fixed. Good luck.
 

Wayne64SS

New Member
Oct 15, 2008
97
Upstate NY
Dude I think that's the simplest easiest to implement solution.... I'm definitely going to get that done. I can use the "overheat" zone circ i have now in place of the 007 one you are talking about and also because there is no check valve in it i can put a shutoff valve after it near the PB return and close it a little bit, this will act as a mixing valve when the regular circ is running so it doesn't shock the PB! Genious! I can't wait to try it, thanks a bunch man.
 
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