Time for a complete system overhaul -- Looking for input.

[mtnsideman]

My old farmhouse is due for some upgrades or an overhaul to the heating system. I would appreciate some input to help me determine the best action plan. I'm located in south-central Pennsylvania in a 2500sq ft stone farmhouse with the plan of this being my forever home. I have 20 acres of forest plus my neighbor's forest that can supply me with endless firewood if I put in the effort.

The Current System: The main boiler is oil-fired with a DHW coil, 1 zone that supplies heat to my upstairs and downs stairs loops. Manual valves control the balance of the heat between the two hydronic baseboard loops. There is a fireplace insert boiler that is tied into the oil boiler with an aquastat and circulator. The two systems share the same water. The fireplace boiler is in my living room while the oil boiler is right below it in the basement. The fireplace boiler heats the oil boiler, sending heat to the baseboards and DHW coil. The equipment is believed to be circa 1984. Likely the oil boiler and fireplace insert boiler were new when an addition was added on to the house. Both are operational and in decent condition, if they are that old.

My first winter experience: The fireplace is working better than I expected. I gobbles up wood but I was able to maintain 70deg temps when it was single digits and windy this winter. Despite the mild winter, I believe that I burned 3 chords of wood during the month of January, so 15 chords+ for the year is what I'm planning for next year. I have boiled over the system a few times learning how it all works and was fortunate to not experience any significant power outages. The fireplace bubbles more than I would like. This is likely because air gets trapped at the high point and the water can begin to boil if you let the fire get too hot. There is no hot water storage in this system. Once the water temp reaches the high limit on the oil boiler (160F) it forces the circulator pump to distribute heat to the zone till a low limit (~140F) is reached. The oil boiler does not run until the low limit of 120f is reached during high demand or when the fire goes cold.

Operational Concerns:

• Loss of power will boil over the fireplace boiler.
• The oil and wood boiler share the same water.
• Loss of power keeps me from heating the house effectively.
• The fireplace overheats water on startup if too big of a fire is made until the aquastat turns on the circulator.
• The fireplace makes bubbling noise more than desired requiring purging.
• I haven't looked in the chimney yet and it likely doesn't have a liner.
• No storage to bank heat excess heat causing the house to overheat on warm days from continuous fire.
• Cresote build up on water tubes in the firebox and are basically impossible to practically clean.
• Fire bricks are due for replacement.
• Oil boiler is likely near end of life.
• Fireplace circulator pump has a manual variable speed switch
• Oil boiler short cycles (rarely) to maintain water temp during high demand when the zones are full of cold water

What to do moving forward: I enjoy burning wood and cutting firewood but I also have young kids so time is limited a precious. The house is getting remodeled in sections as time and budget allow. The windows are very leaky and likely the main source of heat loss. Having a warm fire in the living room is nice but the mess is annoying, getting it out of the living space is preferred. I would like to make improvements to the system as a whole to make it more reliable and efficient and would appreciate your input.

I've briefly talked to Tarm and the local distributor for Froling to learn about indoor cordwood boilers. This type of system would work well in my basement because I have plenty of space and can easily get wood to it. The problem is the $20k pill to swallow for an all-new system. I'm not at a stage of life (early 30s) where this can absorb an investment like that. Maybe 10 years from now.

If I make no major change to the system components, I'm considering the following improvements to keep the budget-friendly and the system more reliable:

• Move the aquastat closer to the firebox to monitor water temperature more accurately and allow for the circulator to be more responsive to changing temperatures
• Electrically back up oil and wood boiler to be able to properly heat the house during a power outage. Bonus points for automatic standby options that don't break the bank.
• Add control of circulator pump speed to stabilize water temps in the firebox to reduce creosote buildup and reduce electric consumption.
• Separating the boilers so hot water is not shared between the systems in case the wood boiler overheats and blows the TPR.
• Add a bleeder valve at the top of the wood boiler to manually remove air in addition to hy-vent.
• Add temperature monitor/gauges somehow.
• Inspect the chimney and evaluate if a liner is needed/required. Possibly add EGT gauge because science....
• Continue remodeling the house to improve insulation and install new windows to reduce heat loss.

If money was no object, I would consider putting in a new Froling system with proper storage, a propane boiler with DHW, and a propane standby generator. But this is not financially feasible right now.....if ever.

I'd love to hear all your input on this system. Thanks.

 

[brenndatomu]

Do you have central air...or ductwork of any kind?
Was just thinking that a Kuuma VF100 wood furnace would be a lot cheaper if you don't have to install new ductwork for it.
(broken link removed)
Never heard of a fireplace insert boiler before...interesting

 

[mtnsideman]

Do you have central air...or ductwork of any kind?
Was just thinking that a Kuuma VF100 wood furnace would be a lot cheaper if you don't have to install new ductwork for it.
(broken link removed)
Never heard of a fireplace insert boiler before...interesting

No ductwork or central air conditioning. Probably will put in mini splits one day but for now we are living without air conditioning.

I haven't found any information on the internet about the insert wood boiler. Maybe it was custom built....

 

[hobbyheater]

If your in your 30's now is the time to do it ,the payback will be huge! Did my system when I was in my 30's (1980's)was the best investment I ever made . Froling ,Vedolux with storage , no danger of chimney fires and very efficient !

 

[mtnsideman]

Here is a better look at the wood boiler. The oil boiler is a New Yorker S-114-AP 127kBtu. I have no idea how old they are but both are functioning "fine". I didn't calculate the payback but 20k is not in the budget now. Ultimately, I can make no changes and still heat my house on wood only. In the fall before I started using the fireplace, I consumed 100 gallons of oil rather quickly. I haven't fully grasped the time required to stockpile enough wood but don't want it to consume me.

 

[brenndatomu]

Ever see one of these insert boilers @bholler ?

 

[bholler]

Ever see one of these insert boilers @bholler ?

I worked on one for yearsand it's a nasty creosote factory. I finally said I wasn't working on it anymore because it was unsafe

 

[Woodman1]

Time is valuable. 15 cords of wood will take some TIME. Around here a cord goes for $250.00. I figure that is $3750.00 whether you cut it or not, as you could have sold it for that. I don't know how old your kids are, but don't underestimate the amount of time school aged kids require, especially if they are interested in sports. If you are comfortable plumbing, and mechanicly inclined, I would look at good used. I've got less than 5 grand in a pressurized 1000 gallon storage/eko 60 set up. EKO was used and storage tanks came from a scrap yard. It takes about 6 cords to heat my house and hot water from October till May. I think there was a tarm listed in the classifieds recently. Good luck whatever you do!

 

[mtnsideman]

If you are comfortable plumbing, and mechanically inclined, I would look at good used.

Yes, I am comfortable accepting this challenge. Digging around on FB market place has turned up some Tarm Solo PlusII units and a Vedolux 37.

Vedolux 37 build in 2011 with 2 500 gallon storage tanks asking $4k. This could fit the bill.

 

[hobbyheater]

With the Vedolux and storage your wood consumption would drop to 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cords a year !

 

[Woodman1]

With the Vedolux and storage your wood consumption would drop to 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cords a year !

Maybe, but that seems a little optimistic. Although the EKO is crude I don't see how it could burn the wood any more efficiently. I could probably save a cord if the boiler and storage were inside the heating envelope.

 

[mtnsideman]

Reducing my wood consumption would save significant TIME. So getting away from this stove would be beneficial and safer.

Replacing my leaky windows would save a ton of heat loss. This is in the short term remodel plan. They are so bad that I can smell wood smoke in my one bedroom on occasion with a proper wind direction.

6 cords per year seems more realistic with a proper gasification boiler until it proves it could do better.

 

[hedge wood]

If it were me I wouldn't spend a dime on any new or used equipment until I replaced the windows and tighten up the house. Then I would set up some storage and run your current wood boiler insert output into storage so you could batch burn it. What you have for equipment is working and not leaking. Then later on put a new boiler in. Unless you run across the deal of a life time there's no reason to install someone's else's junk.

 

[maple1]

Yes, I am comfortable accepting this challenge. Digging around on FB market place has turned up some Tarm Solo PlusII units and a Vedolux 37.

Vedolux 37 build in 2011 with 2 500 gallon storage tanks asking $4k. This could fit the bill.

I would jump on that Vedo, fast, before it gets sold. Thats a great deal for that plus storage. Unless it's been seriously abused somehow. You might find a comparable brand but you won't find better. The dealer is in PA, and is awesome.

 

[mtnsideman]

Found out that the dealer is right down the road from me, which is cool.

I got some pictures of the stove. It looks worn but I'm no expert. The tanks are also too big to fit through my basement door and I don't have enough headroom to stack them. So I might let this one pass.

 

[Woodman1]

Found out that the dealer is right down the road from me, which is cool.

I got some pictures of the stove. It looks worn but I'm no expert. The tanks are also too big to fit through my basement door and I don't have enough headroom to stack them. So I might let this one pass.

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Holy Crap! Look at all the expansion tanks. There must have been a couple thousand dollars right there!

 

[hobbyheater]

Reducing my wood consumption would save significant TIME. So getting away from this stove would be beneficial and safer.

Replacing my leaky windows would save a ton of heat loss. This is in the short term remodel plan. They are so bad that I can smell wood smoke in my one bedroom on occasion with a proper wind direction.

6 cords per year seems more realistic with a proper gasification boiler until it proves it could do better.

We had a boiler like this in the early 80s. It burned 22 cords a year. The Jetstream with storage averaged 4 per year for 37 years. I think 4 cords a year is possible with a Vedolux or Froling with storage!

 

[hobbyheater]

Maybe, but that seems a little optimistic. Although the EKO is crude I don't see how it could burn the wood any more efficiently. I could probably save a cord if the boiler and storage were inside the heating envelope.

I was replying to mtnsideman not to you , sorry for the confusion! I know someone who went from a Eko to a Froling , who seen a 25% reduction in wood consumption. The Lambda controlled boilers are very efficient!

 

[maple1]

Found out that the dealer is right down the road from me, which is cool.

I got some pictures of the stove. It looks worn but I'm no expert. The tanks are also too big to fit through my basement door and I don't have enough headroom to stack them. So I might let this one pass.

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I would get input from Dean (dealer) on the condition of that. I am not directly familiar with the 37 but that kinda looks like just a refractory replacement. Then if he gives favorable input, I would still jump on that. Even that price for just the boiler and expansion is a bargain, even if you can't use those storage tanks. Maybe he would have something smaller you could trade them for? Big bonus is you would have a (very good) dealer for what you are using close by.

 

[mtnsideman]

Since I've been looking at used boilers......Is the Tarm Solo PlusII Boiler held in high regard like the Vedolux units?

 

[hobbyheater]

Since I've been looking at used boilers......Is the Tarm Solo PlusII Boiler held in high regard like the Vedolux units?

The Tarm boilers were well made!

 

[mtnsideman]

I picked up the unit. $ 2700 for the boiler, expansion tanks and miscellaneous piping components. The 2x500 LP storage tanks were left behind because they won't fit through my basement door and I don't have enough ceiling height for them.

I'll be taking to over to Dean @ Smokelessheat.com and see what thinks of the condition.

Now to begin planning how the flue and storage, then start laying out a piping plan. I would like to be operational for the next heating season.

 

[Woodman1]

Man you got a deal! I'd go back there and get those tanks though. You will figure out some way to use them, and it will never be any cheaper!

 

[hobbyheater]

Great acquisition !

 

[maple1]

Nice. Hopefully Dean doesn't find anything wrong with it but I think it would have to have seen serious abuse for that to be the case. And he is the guy for sure to help get it up and going.

Your thread title says complete system overhaul. Along with storage, I would next be looking for low temp emitters to either add to or replace your baseboard. There are lots of used cast iron rads for sale around here. If you couple storage with low temp emitters, that's as good as you can get for hydronics. Then you'll be all set for the next change - plugging in an A-W heat pump.