New to Inserts - Looking at Napoleon 1401/1402 - Quadrafire 3100i - Questions

[jimplasticguy]

Hi all. I am new to high effeciency wood burning. Right now we have a 1952 Cape Cod with finished first floor, 1300 square feet, and a nice large fireplace which we have found sucks out all of the warm air in the house. It looks nice, but that is about it. We have been looking for a year or so at inserts. I had settled on the Quadrafire 3100i, but found that if you were looking for value, the Napoleon 1400 series was worth a look. I agonize a bit over 3,000 dollar investments, so wanted to post here before taking the plunge, as I have gained insite from hearth.com.

Current buying situation:
Have looked at 3 dealers. The Quadrafire is well over 2,000 dollars and probably closer to 3 (without install) if you add options like blower, etc.
I have a quote on a Napoleon 1402 at $1699 and a quote at another dealer who has a 1401 left for $1599. It looks to me like the install with full lining up the chimney will be about $1,000 in parts and labor, no matter where I go.

The dealer with the 1401 made a few statements that I want to verify. He stated that it was essentially the same as this years model 1402, with the exception of the fancy colors which I don't care about. He also stated that he installs UL listed liners and does not feel that insulation is necessary. I want to especially make certain of this. Our biggest concern and the reason for not doing it DIY is that the smoke goes up the chimney, not into the house. If we are going to invest this much, we want to do it right.

Final questions now that you know my situation.
Would there be anything that would lean us to spending more on the quadrafire? We want a functional fireplace that provides supplemental heat and takes the chill off of us. We like the idea of clean glass and not having smoke belching into the house.
Any others I should look at? Again, we want something that works well, but don't need to pay for a name. Like my old Pentax K1000 35MM camera. It did the job, but I saved a few bucks not buying a top name.
Anything that I am missing here?

I really appreciate your feedback and I also appreciate having a forum where people can ask these questions.

Jim

 

[moterhead3]

I just got a napoleon 1402, it hasn't really been cold in SE PA, but so far I love it. I haven't needed my heater at all. It's amazing how much heat it makes with a small amount of wood. I think it looks good and it includes dual fans, quiet on low, not bad on high.

 

[hfjeff]

My brother in law has the Quad 3100i and loves it. It really kicks out the heat for it's size. I looked at it as well but went with the Regency because it had slightly larger firebox.

My other brother in law has a Quad 5100i and loves it as well. But that is a monster unit.

 

[axleman]

I put a 1401 in my downstairs fireplace last fall. I ran about 25' worth of liner and insulation. My wife and I installed it all ourselves in about half a day. Total cost was about $1800 if I recall. I have been very happy with its performance and it did the vast majority of the work in heating my 2 story 2500 sq ft home last winter (in Alabama).

 

[Jimbob]

Any others I should look at? Again, we want something that works well.....I really appreciate your feedback and I also appreciate having a forum where people can ask these questions.

Jim

This should be similar, and roughly the same price as the Napoleon 1401.


(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/product_insert_pacific.php)

 

[begreen]

GMC just put in a 3100i, he should have some opinions soon on the heat output of this stove. Do you also have an upstairs in the house?

Is the chimney on the interior of exterior of the house? If interior, you may be ok without a liner. If exterior, go for an insulated liner.

Both stoves are good. The Quad might be a bit more heavy duty, but the Napoleon is a good stove and offers a nice value.

 

[Daniel]

This is my first winter with the Napoleon 1402. I started shopping for the Quads and Hearthstones, but after seeing quotes for $3500 installed I bought the Napoleon 1402. I installed it myself for much less complete with the cost of metal and insulation for block off plates and chimney extension. I love the stoves performance and look! PM me if you want the price I paid or the dealer. I try not to talk dollars or dealers in the open forum to respect the advertisers on the Hearth.

Dan

 

[BrotherBart]

I try not to talk dollars or dealers in the open forum to respect the advertisers on the Hearth.

Why not? Craig has a whole section of the site for stove reviews including where ya bought it and how much ya paid. And another whole section for prices of fuel and dealer/location.

 

[Gooserider]

I would second BG's comment - if you have an interior chimney, the insulation on the liner will help, but you can live without it. If you have an exterior chimney, you need insulation.

I would also say that you should INSIST on a blockoff plate on the bottom of the flue. It may not be a strict code requirement - there are arguements about that - but we have multiple reports that it makes a MAJOR difference in the performance of the insert as a heating unit. This keeps the heat from the insert from going up the chimney along the outside of the liner. In my opinion this is so critical that if an installer tried to tell me it wasn't needed, I'd tell him he didn't need my job and look for a different, more competent installer.

Another thing I've seen reported by several folks that is another optional item, useful only if you have an exterior fireplace, and doable only if there is room behind the insert, is to fasten up sheets of Micore, rock wool, or other high temperature suitable insulation (NOT standard house fiberglass) on the back and sides of the fireplace before sliding the insert in. This slows the loss of heat from the insert to the masonry of the fireplace. On an interior fireplace this loss doesn't really matter as the heat will just radiate back to the interior of the house, but on an exterior fireplace, heat sent into the masonry is mostly going to go to heating the outoors.

Gooserider

 

[Daniel]

Brother Bart:

Working in sales has probaly made me more sensitive to price posting. Somewhere in Ohio a stove shop has invested time with Plasticguy. If they give him good service and negotiate a fair price for both parties they will earn his business. When I went shopping and all the shops quoted me list price and $75 to come out and give me an estimate for installation this eliminated my incentive to buy locally. If Plasticguy cares about what I paid for my stove & liner (which he may not) I will tell him otherwise I hope the dealer in Ohio can earn his business. I bought my stove online and the price was determined by the bidders during the summertime. The shop in Ohio may not be able to sell the stove for that price in the winter. If homeowners do not feel comfortable installing their new stoves I think they should buy locally. Basically I was lucky and got a great deal because I won the bid at the right time.

Dan

 

[jimplasticguy]

Thanks for all of the replies. I am also in sales, but an engineer by education. You can probably guess what I peddle. There is a clue in the name. I am in favor of educated consumers. My customers certainly are. That being said, I know that I am buying during prime time sales season. The wife vetoed me over the summer. Now it is getting cold and she wants one at any cost.

None of these guys have earned my business yet and the guy with the 1401 did not give me a satisfactory explanation of why I wouldn't need to insulate. The chimney is on an external wall. He did not ask about that, just tried to fast talk. I have also looked at the two (1401/1402) and decided that I just like the looks of the new 1402 better.

I am going to work a bit with the 1402 place. They have an installer certified with the NFI.

You guys have me thinking about the self install. The main thing is I want it to be safe and work. But I am a mechanical engineer who does his own plumbing, electrical, etc. I have found that I can save significantly and do it to code with some prework and studying. I don't like to do anything substandard and will pay more to ensure that if I go with an installer.

Thanks for being a friendly place. I always hate those forums where you ask a question, probably partially redundant, and get scathing replies. Every situation is unique.

 

[begreen]

Welcome Jim. If you are a do it right kind of guy, you probably can do a fine job with a self-install. Perhaps better than the pros. You will need the tools, and knowledge of code safety regulations and home construction if you add a hole to the roof. It takes a bit of research, time and patience. But there are good instructions provided by the pipe manufacturers and a wealth of info here.

When you settle on the stove and the location, take several photos and post them here. Post a sketch of the floor plan too if you have questions about placement for the best heating.

 

[Daniel]

Jim:

The 1402 has been burning all day and it has a huge firebox capacity that can hold alot of wood for long burn times. My wife is even getting comfortable throwing logs in the hopper and does great starting fires from a cold start. Did you check out the other dealer with the 1402? If so keep us posted on your progress with purches and whether you decide to install it on your own. It sounds like you are more then capable to do the job. The tools needed for the job are fairly basic. Hope plastic sales are booming!

dan

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for all of the replies. I am also in sales, but an engineer by education. You can probably guess what I peddle. There is a clue in the name. I am in favor of educated consumers. My customers certainly are. That being said, I know that I am buying during prime time sales season. The wife vetoed me over the summer. Now it is getting cold and she wants one at any cost.

None of these guys have earned my business yet and the guy with the 1401 did not give me a satisfactory explanation of why I wouldn't need to insulate. The chimney is on an external wall. He did not ask about that, just tried to fast talk. I have also looked at the two (1401/1402) and decided that I just like the looks of the new 1402 better.

I am going to work a bit with the 1402 place. They have an installer certified with the NFI.

You guys have me thinking about the self install. The main thing is I want it to be safe and work. But I am a mechanical engineer who does his own plumbing, electrical, etc. I have found that I can save significantly and do it to code with some prework and studying. I don't like to do anything substandard and will pay more to ensure that if I go with an installer.

Thanks for being a friendly place. I always hate those forums where you ask a question, probably partially redundant, and get scathing replies. Every situation is unique.

Welcome to the Forum, we do try to be helpful. Doing your own install is certainly possible, there isn't anything in the process that is terribly difficult, though it involves a fair number of "trades" skills depending on what you have to start with. It is also possible to split up the job and just sub out those parts that you feel uncomfortable doing yourself.

Sounds like your setup would be pretty simple to deal with - slide a liner down the chimney, preferably insulated, and install blockoff plates top and bottom - You need to be comfortable w/ heights and doing work from a ladder and / or on your roof (how steep is the roof pitch? How high is the chimney, and how far above the roof is it?) You need skills in general agility, and basic sheet metal work. Note - This part of the job gets MUCH harder and more dangerous once you start getting snow and freezing weather - snow covered / icy roofs are treacherous.

You then need to put the stove into the fireplace and connect it - more basic mechanical and sheet metal skills, a good bit of brute force, and some "art of moving heavy things w/o killing self" skills. You might also need to extend your hearth, which would involve basic carpentry and tile laying skills...

All of these are things that you will find lots of threads, and Wiki articles, etc. on, and stuff that we can advise you on how to do, as long as you have the basic tools and skills.

No insult intended to the reputable industry folks around, but judging by the "horror stories" we see posted here, it does seem like there are a lot of "hacks" out there, so it may very well be likely that you can do a better job yourself as long as you can follow codes and the instruction manuals.

Gooserider

 

[jimplasticguy]

Thanks again. Here is the update on the search. Today we went to two dealers who happen to be within a few miles of eachother, one with the quad and the other with the Napoleon 1402. Both dealers have installers who are certified by the fireplace instute, which seems like a plus to me.

I took my wife with me to check out the acceptance factor. I found myself leaning to the quad, because it just seems to be a heavier build. The thing that I have been sweating is reading reviews that say 18" is a bit generous for maximum log length. I know that I have wood in the garage right now for the fireplace that would need to be cut down, so I wonder how much of an issue this would be.

Anyway, I am standing there thinking about that and I saw the buck model 91. It has a really large interior, my wife really likes the extra glass, and it is one heavy mutha.

It is a cat model and I have read up a bit on that. I haven't really seen any negative comments on the bucks. My only potential negative that I can think of is that we have 1300 square feet here on the main living floor and I wouldn't want to get cooked out, but it sounds like once you get the cat going, you get long steady temps. I also plan on putting in a ceiling fan.

So that is where I am. It looks like the Buck costs in the range of the quad, with a lot more cubic feet to play with.

If you have comments on where I am so far, please feel free to chime in. I think I could live with any of the three. I am now leaning toward the buck, but researching a bit.

 

[moterhead3]

My Napoleon 1402 cooks me out of my 1600 sq ft rancher.

 

[jimplasticguy]

I wanted to update you all on what I did and a new question. My wife preferred the quadrafires, so we went with the 3100i to be installed this week. We went with and experienced dealer who seems pretty credible with answers. The house has a deep fireplace. On Monday, the installers worked for many hours to fit the liner to the insert. Because of the way the fireplace was built combined with the design of the 3100i, even with an offset adapter, it was not going to work. We called the shop and he upgraded me to the quad bodega bay which is nice, because it has a lot of viewing glass and it has the nice tapered back so that the liner went right in.

We have noticed that the two side pieces of glass built up a coat of soot quickly, as did the center glass, but it stays clean down the very center. I called the dealer and he asked me to see if it cleaned up when burning hot, which it did somewhat, but not completely. I only have one day burning experience, but it seems like if I damp it down to even a medium high setting, the buildup gets worse. The buildup is significant enough that it is difficult to see the fire through the portions that are affected. The wood was bought seasoned the winter before last and is very dry. I am not wood experienced enough to know what type of wood it is.

This is all new to me. Does anyone have an opinion about the air wash and if something might be amiss there? I left an email note for the dealer this evening, but it is always good to be an informed consumer.

Thanks for your help and suggestions along the way.

 

[TMonter]

How dry is the wood you are burning? If the wood is not completely seasoned I've noticed the glass gets a lot dirtier on my 3100i.

 

[jimplasticguy]

The wood should be very dry and well seasoned. It has not been in the weather at all. I have been searching around this forum and there is a lot of good information about the problem. As was mentioned to someone in another thread on the subject, it IS my first day. So I am going to play with this a bit over the next few days. I may have caused a problem the first few hours I am thinking by damping it down too quickly. We wiped it off and are starting over to see if it was newbie syndrome.

 

[RonB]

Hi Jimplastic and welcome. Following is a good video link on burning a wood stove. The moderator Gooserider posted it the other day for a new wood burner. I also found it helpful. Likely you are damping back too quickly. Here's the link:http://www.ec.gc.ca/cleanair-airpur/default.asp?lang=En&n=8011CD70-1