New woodstove, new stainless steel 5 1/2 chimney flue liner - very poor performance

[TracyD]

Putting this question out for ideas/suggestions.

Have heated house for 15 years with dependable woodstove and chimney (20 foot). No problems.
Upgraded to a new Pacific Energy Super 27 and a 5 1/2 inch stainless steel flue liner 2009 summer ( $$$) - professionally installed

Stove will not sustain burn, smolders, seems to lack draft. Could leave the stove on full open till the cows came home and no fire lasts more than 40 minutes.
Have tried a variety of wood...even buying bundles of bone dry. Fire will flame if I hold the ash dump door open for a couple of minutes, but then goes out. Can't crack open door to increase draft 1) dangerous 2) fillllllllls house with smoke.
This is a draft problem, quite sure....but why?

Thanks in advance for any ideas. We are cold and very frustrated.

 

[Frostbit]

Don't despair, help is on the way. I am not worthy, but I'll follow the thread so I learn, too. The PE and stack pros will chime in here shortly.

You have checked the obvious, I presume, like is your stack free and clear from stove to topper?

 

[littlesmokey]

My immediate reaction is a serious draft issue. Clues come in your description of using the ash pan door. Clearly you need to state your procedures for starting the stove. You should also read the stickies on starting your stove. Just guessing, but sounds like you are using the same techniques as your old stove and they are not working. A new EPA stove is a different animal from the old Smoke Dragons. Welcom to the hearth, pull up an easy chair and prepare to get all the information you need.

 

[begreen]

Greetings Tracy. First things first. Why was the liner downsized from 6"?

Check to see if they punched out the fresh air knockout. The ash pan door symptom sounds like they may not have done this. Check the manual under the section labeled " combustion air". I think it's at the back of the ash pan enclosure on this stove.

Sounds like maybe there is poor draft too. Can you describe the flue installation from the stove up? Is this installed to a wall thimble? Interior or exterior flue? Two possible things to check are if there is a horiz. connector, is it heading uphill to the thimble and how well sealed are the connections? Next, is this a flex or rigid liner? If flex, check for denting. Also, is there a clean out door or cap on a cleanout tee? Is this sealed tightly?

 

[TracyD]

Thank you. Appreciate your questions. We made the changes to new stove and flue liner, not because we had any problems or concerns about the previous system) but to be sure we complied with all home insurance regulations (as the house is now 21 years old....and regulations have changed).

Yes, we had the chimney liner (new in August) re-cleaned and liner checked for kinks or blockage. Smokey fires had not been very clean burning...

Spent a good deal of time researching new stove and learning any changes for starting, running. I have checked the manual to trouble shoot draft/combustion.

Starting stove: I start with newspaper in middle. Topped with a few dry cedar shingles (also had our roof redone in summer) and then criss cross wtih a bit of dry kindling. Set stove to "start" or full open. Light. Paper will burn and shingles (very dry). If kindling gets going then I add one piece of wood ....and start there. Can't add too much wood or fire goes out quickly. I leave a inch or two of ash in bottom as recommended.

Chimney construction: Chimney is one of two original to the house (rancher). The woodstove sits on a brick hearth (large) that exents up the wall The chimney for the woodstove runs through house and roof (run is 20 feet). The stove pipe comes up from stove (14 inches) with an elbow that turns toward wall and then a straight run through the bricks and to connect to the chimney/liner. The original chimney is cement block with tile inside ......the first try to insert a 6 inch flue liner was a near fit but a little tight....so a 5 1/2 inch liner was used. I am 99 percent certain is is a flexible liner (watched it being installed and it was not a rigid straight piece of metal). Connections have been checked and seem okay.

I watched the stove being installed and remember the punch out. Will double check that this was the "fresh air" piece. (Installer coming back. He too recognizes the draft issue. Busy guy though, it seems...). He was going to take the baffle out and check it.

You have me thinking though. The original chimney extends down into the 5 foot crawl and has a cast iron clean out door. The new liner is not capped at the bottom, and thus is open down these last, say, 6 -8 feet to the bottom of chimney extending down to the clean out in the crawl space. Should the liner have been capped/closed off when installed? I mean capped at the end that extends shortly past the where the woodstove connects to it inside the chimney?

Thanks again. Very much appreciate your ideas here. I have better ideas to ask the installer, when he returns... Tracy

 

[Konrad]

The new liner is not capped at the bottom

I'd say there's your whole problem. Your liner is drawing air from inside the chimney -- and any air filtration into the chimney. The only place it should be pulling from is your stove. So first, whatever capacity a 5.5" liner has to move air is diminished by sharing the capacity with your chimney void, and secondly, the cold air from that void is cooling whatever smoke comes from the stove -- both of which will reduce draw significantly. That will also aid in creating creosote.


I have a 5.5" flex liner. And I installed a new 12"x12" cast iron door in the back of the masonry chimney to access the clean-out cap.

 

[oconnor]

snip....

Chimney construction: Chimney is one of two original to the house (rancher). The woodstove sits on a brick hearth (large) that exents up the wall The chimney for the woodstove runs through house and roof (run is 20 feet). The stove pipe comes up from stove (14 inches) with an elbow that turns toward wall and then a straight run through the bricks and to connect to the chimney/liner. The original chimney is cement block with tile inside ......the first try to insert a 6 inch flue liner was a near fit but a little tight....so a 5 1/2 inch liner was used. I am 99 percent certain is is a flexible liner (watched it being installed and it was not a rigid straight piece of metal). Connections have been checked and seem okay.

I watched the stove being installed and remember the punch out. Will double check that this was the "fresh air" piece. (Installer coming back. He too recognizes the draft issue. Busy guy though, it seems...). He was going to take the baffle out and check it.

You have me thinking though. The original chimney extends down into the 5 foot crawl and has a cast iron clean out door. The new liner is not capped at the bottom, and thus is open down these last, say, 6 -8 feet to the bottom of chimney extending down to the clean out in the crawl space. Should the liner have been capped/closed off when installed? I mean capped at the end that extends shortly past the where the woodstove connects to it inside the chimney? snip... Tracy

I actually asked this question the other day, and yes it should be a closed system. If the liner is open at the bottom, then you have two entries to it, one at the stove, and one in the cleanout, and the flue will not "suck" the gasses thru the stove, as the other entry is an easier path to pull air from. Usually, the T they install is closed at the base, and when you sweep you have to remove the soot thru the thimble, as I understand it. I don't have a Tee insatll, so someone out there who actually has a system like yours will chime in soon, I'm sure.

Good luck and welcome the the forums.

 

[thechimneysweep]

TracyD,

Cap your tee! Path of least resistance rule will create that the chimney updraft pulls air in through the open tee bottom instead of through the more constrictive stove.

 

[Highbeam]

If the tee isn't capped then your installer made a huge mistake. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that it should be capped.

 

[begreen]

You have me thinking though. The original chimney extends down into the 5 foot crawl and has a cast iron clean out door. The new liner is not capped at the bottom, and thus is open down these last, say, 6 -8 feet to the bottom of chimney extending down to the clean out in the crawl space. Should the liner have been capped/closed off when installed? I mean capped at the end that extends shortly past the where the woodstove connects to it inside the chimney?

BINGO! Fix that and you should experience a world of difference. Also have the installer confirm that the fresh air knockout is removed.

 

[Frostbit]

I told ya these guys were good...

Gawd, I love this place!

 

[TracyD]

A sincere THANK YOU all! So appreciate your helpful and constructive advice. Tomorrow I will call the installer and get that flue capped (at bottom), come heck or high water. Truly looking forward to having my woodstove warmed house again. Will post with an update when the flue is capped. Again, so glad you were all here to help....Sincerely, Tracy (and family)

 

[jabush]

While capping the bottom of the Tee should solve the problem you are describing, something you can do now is check the cleanout door to ensure it closes tightly and is sealed.
If your cleanout door is sealed and there are no other leaks in the door frame or surounding masonry, then you should get the same results as a "cap" on the bottom of the Tee. Plus any crud that falls down your chimney will fall into the pit...where it belongs.

 

[jtp10181]

You might be able to close the ash door over some plastic and tape it to get a decent seal and see if that helps.

If the old chim is block only, first of all, I hope they insulated the liner, and secondly you might be getting air leaks just through the block.

 

[TracyD]

Hi and thank you. Trying to be pro-active with the suggestions received, today we worked on a plastic seal and taped around the chimney clean out ash door in the crawl space. This has already made a significant difference and the fire is actually heating the room tonight. More thanks, Tracy

 

[begreen]

Yea! We love happy endings.

 

[jtp10181]

I'm still wondering about the insulation on the liner... ?

 

[TracyD]

Thank you... I had meant to ask more about insulation of the liner...

There is no insulation on the liner that I am aware of.
The chimney is cement block (outside) inner lined with tile, then the liner.

Is insulation of liner to improve draft? Stop any unseen air leaks? Are cold winter climates a factor in deciding whether to install an insulated liner? On Vancouver Island (BC) we have relatively mild wiinters. Lots of rain! but not sustained deep cold or snow.

Would this mean buying a new liner? (Still recuperating from big roof replacement, and chimney and new woodstove expenses from summer....) Or are there other ways to provide greater insulation for the liner/chimney?

Thanks again. Amazing forum and great information. Tracy

 

[Todd]

Ask your installer if they could connect a length of liner with cap to the bottom of your tee that would extend to the old cleanout. Then you could still use that cleanout.

 

[jtp10181]

Well at least you have the clay tile liner, makes me a little less nervous.

Read this article if you want to know why it should be insulated anyway: http://www.aer-online.com/aerpage.phtml?page=ar-vent1

 

[TracyD]

Thank you for the article. Very helpful. Wish I had read it earlier!
Should I ever undertake this type of reno/repair again, I am asking the big questions here first.
Tracy

 

[webby3650]

Stove shops always seem to only offer the easiest way to re-line a chimney. If they would have suggested removing the tiles to make way for an insulated 6" liner you might have said no, or you might have said yes, but they often don't even give you an option. They seem to avoid the insulation at all costs, I don't understand why, it is so easy to use. My friend had the same set-up you have on a new house and chimney, the installer forgot to seal or attach the clean-out door in any way, just set it in the hole. The first problem was an unexplained run away fire, the next problem was a new 3 story house completely full of smoke! The guy could have put a cap on the bottom of the Tee and put his clean-out door right under it for access.

 

[jtp10181]

The one thing we have not done yet is remove tiles. Right now for those damned 8x12 OD flues we are ovalizing the liner and then doing the insulation wrap. Not sure if we would get much benifit removing tiles over ovalizing, besides a round flue.

 

[TracyD]

Follow up to my original post.....

Yes, it has taken a month to get installer back in picture.

No, installer did not cap the bottom of stainless flue liner....when he installed it....nor does the liner go to the clean out in the crawl...ends about 6 feet above clean out...

Thank you for teaching me about a "closed" system. if you hadn't I would not have asked the right questions....fellow still would have said I did not know how to build a fire ( after 15 years of heating our house with wood....).

Liner being reinstalled this Wednesday. We may have a warm house yet this winter. Again, thank you all! Tracy

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the update Tracy. Keep us posted on progress and hopefully a very happy ending.