Newb wants to know,did I get a good deal?

[goosegunner]

I'm that guy who's the poster child for screwed up underground. My run is over 170' from boiler room to HX. Once up to temp, the energy loss on the total round trip is amazingly small on my system. Once you decide on a insulation METHOD that involves closed cell polyurethane foam (which you'd be crazy if you didn't use foam), then the only variable in determining retaining the energy is the thickness from the pex to the dirt. I have AT LEAST 3-4" between the pex wall and the dirt. Impossible to get that thickness in a product that has to be shipped to a customer. I'm not bashing the commercial, pre-foamed products. It's just the laws of physics, if the material is the same then the only other variable in energy retention is thickness. Any product with the word "wrapped" I would avoid since the worst offender of conducting energy underground is water. BTW, my lines are in an approximate 12" square block and it was done much cheaper than the prefoamed products. I love having our system in an out building. Sounds like you really got a stunning deal. EVERY component of your system can be replaced or upgraded fairly easily, except the underground. You found the right place to learn about heating with wood. Best wishes.[/quo


I called every local company I could find for a quote on closed cell foam and the only bid I got was $2,200. Maybe I should try again. I think the "foam in place" idea is a great one but what about cracking with the freeze and thaw or the ground settling ?

Cracking of the foam was one of the concerns I had with spray in trench method. The commercial products might not be as thick but they are as water proof and insect resistant as you are going to find. Either one would be better than wrapped.

I went with Logstor also because of trench/ timing concerns. I went 6' down in sandy soil. I would have had to have a open trench longer if I went spray foam. Any weather problems, I would have had a mess. With Logstor we dug trench and dropped it in and began the backfill. It saved on excavating costs also. Going 6' down gives me the flexability to travel with out worry of lines freezing. Both ends come up in heated space. My advice would be put your lines deep enough so you can go away without the worry of having someone tend the fire or moving water the whole time to prevent freezing.

gg

 

[willworkforwood]

Congrats - it's a very good deal you got there Grovenburg. But with storage in an outbuilding, you may be climbing uphill. Not saying the tank can't go outside - others have done it. You're going to need to do a heck of an insulating job on the tank, in order to retain nearly all of the heat, and not incur a double non-productive standby loss. Do you know what your heat loss is? What type of emitters? If the EB100 falls short on the cold days, you could always supplement with fossil. Many of us here on the forum get militant about not using fossil - in my case the oil burner gives me a horrible pain in my ears, and so it's just not allowed to come on. But, if it doesn't bother you, there's no reason you can't help out the WB if it struggles on the coldest days. In any case, best of luck with it!

 

[Grovenburg]

Congrats - it's a very good deal you got there Grovenburg. But with storage in an outbuilding, you may be climbing uphill. Not saying the tank can't go outside - others have done it. You're going to need to do a heck of an insulating job on the tank, in order to retain nearly all of the heat, and not incur a double non-productive standby loss. Do you know what your heat loss is? What type of emitters? If the EB100 falls short on the cold days, you could always supplement with fossil. Many of us here on the forum get militant about not using fossil - in my case the oil burner gives me a horrible pain in my ears, and so it's just not allowed to come on. But, if it doesn't bother you, there's no reason you can't help out the WB if it struggles on the coldest days. In any case, best of luck with it!

I'm starting to wonder about the storage in an outbuilding myself. My basement is finished and have very limited space for the tank (my wifes storage room). Is there a danger with the tank? I mean are my kids in danger with 650 gallons of scalding hot water in the next room? The tank from STSS is insulated but not enough in my opinion. How about freezing? If I had the storage in the basement and buried my lines deep, could I go on vacation and not worry about freezing? So many questions. Thanks for the help.

 

[Tennman]

My storage will be in the out building. Obviously it's best to have your energy "leakers" inside the house but in my case impossible to get a 1000 gal tank there. Ask the guys here how warm the outside skin of a well insulated tank is. If its close to the room temp of the outbuilding that tells it all. I would guess the energy loss of a tank with 3-4" of foam to be a small amount of wood over a season. Best in the house but ultimately energy loss results in more wood. I happily pay that price to have my boiler outside when I know having it in the house is more efficient. Put it where you're comfortable from a space useage and safety standpoint. But I will add the likelihood of a big leak when the system will be at 12-25 psi is pretty small. My guess is most here have their storage near the boiler for similar reasons to yours. I'll answer later about the concern of cracking underground foam. Sorry but it will include the laws of thermodynamics again. But I don't want to do it from a John using my PDA.

 

[goosegunner]

Congrats - it's a very good deal you got there Grovenburg. But with storage in an outbuilding, you may be climbing uphill. Not saying the tank can't go outside - others have done it. You're going to need to do a heck of an insulating job on the tank, in order to retain nearly all of the heat, and not incur a double non-productive standby loss. Do you know what your heat loss is? What type of emitters? If the EB100 falls short on the cold days, you could always supplement with fossil. Many of us here on the forum get militant about not using fossil - in my case the oil burner gives me a horrible pain in my ears, and so it's just not allowed to come on. But, if it doesn't bother you, there's no reason you can't help out the WB if it struggles on the coldest days. In any case, best of luck with it!

I'm starting to wonder about the storage in an outbuilding myself. My basement is finished and have very limited space for the tank (my wifes storage room). Is there a danger with the tank? I mean are my kids in danger with 650 gallons of scalding hot water in the next room? The tank from STSS is insulated but not enough in my opinion. How about freezing? If I had the storage in the basement and buried my lines deep, could I go on vacation and not worry about freezing? So many questions. Thanks for the help.

Yes you could go away if your boiler is in a warm space, lines are deep and tank is in a heated space. Every link has to be protected from freezing.

We went away last year during the coldest week of our winter. My insulated boiler room was kept warm by a small electric heater. Lines are below frost line and it was very nice to travel and not worry.

I just don't understand why anyone would not bury their lines below frost line for their area. By not doing so you are committed to having someone babysit your system.

gg

 

[salecker]

Hi Grovenburg
My setup is boiler and storage in it's own building 120' from house.
Foamed in trench lines
In the boiler building i have my Backup Oil boiler.
I have the wood boiler and storage one one side of a plate HX with water,the oil boiler and underground lines on the other,these have glycol in them,so far i have less than a barrel of glycol in my system.
I went this setup for a few reason.
-wife and daughter have Asthma
- no flame source in house
-no mess in house
-no worries of freezing lines,the wood boiler and storage is protected by the Oil boiler and a circ that comes on if the temp drops below 50 in the Econoburn
My boiler building gets very warm after a long burn,anything more than two loads you need to be in a tshirt to work in there,no insulation on lines in building,works well to dry wood though.
In the future i will try to retain the BTU's in the system by insulating the copper lines in the boiler building,and this building will eventually be tie in with my shop,so extra heat will be used in the shop.
The con's are more wood usage,a walk in the winter weather to tend boiler.
I'm glad i found this site prior to starting,otherwise i would have crappy lines and a bunch of other problems.wish i would have had a couple of years to plan after i found this site,but it's built now.Tweeking for a few years to come.
Read as much as you can before you begin,and post any Questions you have.Redesign is the easiest before you begin to solder.
Good Luck
Thomas

 

[Grovenburg]

Congrats - it's a very good deal you got there Grovenburg. But with storage in an outbuilding, you may be climbing uphill. Not saying the tank can't go outside - others have done it. You're going to need to do a heck of an insulating job on the tank, in order to retain nearly all of the heat, and not incur a double non-productive standby loss. Do you know what your heat loss is? What type of emitters? If the EB100 falls short on the cold days, you could always supplement with fossil. Many of us here on the forum get militant about not using fossil - in my case the oil burner gives me a horrible pain in my ears, and so it's just not allowed to come on. But, if it doesn't bother you, there's no reason you can't help out the WB if it struggles on the coldest days. In any case, best of luck with it!

I'm starting to wonder about the storage in an outbuilding myself. My basement is finished and have very limited space for the tank (my wifes storage room). Is there a danger with the tank? I mean are my kids in danger with 650 gallons of scalding hot water in the next room? The tank from STSS is insulated but not enough in my opinion. How about freezing? If I had the storage in the basement and buried my lines deep, could I go on vacation and not worry about freezing? So many questions. Thanks for the help.

Yes you could go away if your boiler is in a warm space, lines are deep and tank is in a heated space. Every link has to be protected from freezing.






So how do I figure how deep is deep enough to bury the lines? I'm in mid Michigan. Thanks again.

We went away last year during the coldest week of our winter. My insulated boiler room was kept warm by a small electric heater. Lines are below frost line and it was very nice to travel and not worry.

I just don't understand why anyone would not bury their lines below frost line for their area. By not doing so you are committed to having someone babysit your system.

gg

 

[Grovenburg]

So how do I figure how deep the lines need to be? I'm in mid michigan. Thanks.

 

[Grovenburg]

My storage will be in the out building. Obviously it's best to have your energy "leakers" inside the house but in my case impossible to get a 1000 gal tank there. Ask the guys here how warm the outside skin of a well insulated tank is. If its close to the room temp of the outbuilding that tells it all. I would guess the energy loss of a tank with 3-4" of foam to be a small amount of wood over a season. Best in the house but ultimately energy loss results in more wood. I happily pay that price to have my boiler outside when I know having it in the house is more efficient. Put it where you're comfortable from a space useage and safety standpoint. But I will add the likelihood of a big leak when the system will be at 12-25 psi is pretty small. My guess is most here have their storage near the boiler for similar reasons to yours. I'll answer later about the concern of cracking underground foam. Sorry but it will include the laws of thermodynamics again. But I don't want to do it from a John using my PDA.

From the John? That's dedication! Thanks for your help.

 

[Grovenburg]

Hi Grovenburg
My setup is boiler and storage in it's own building 120' from house.
Foamed in trench lines
In the boiler building i have my Backup Oil boiler.
I have the wood boiler and storage one one side of a plate HX with water,the oil boiler and underground lines on the other,these have glycol in them,so far i have less than a barrel of glycol in my system.
I went this setup for a few reason.
-wife and daughter have Asthma
- no flame source in house
-no mess in house
-no worries of freezing lines,the wood boiler and storage is protected by the Oil boiler and a circ that comes on if the temp drops below 50 in the Econoburn
My boiler building gets very warm after a long burn,anything more than two loads you need to be in a tshirt to work in there,no insulation on lines in building,works well to dry wood though.
In the future i will try to retain the BTU's in the system by insulating the copper lines in the boiler building,and this building will eventually be tie in with my shop,so extra heat will be used in the shop.
The con's are more wood usage,a walk in the winter weather to tend boiler.
I'm glad i found this site prior to starting,otherwise i would have crappy lines and a bunch of other problems.wish i would have had a couple of years to plan after i found this site,but it's built now.Tweeking for a few years to come.
Read as much as you can before you begin,and post any Questions you have.Redesign is the easiest before you begin to solder.
Good Luck
Thomas

Thanks for your advice. Your system sounds awesome. I'm now thinking of finding a cheap/used propane boiler to put in my room for back up. I've already got propane out there so better safe than sorry. These systems look like they get very complicated very fast! Thanks again.

 

[goosegunner]

So how do I figure how deep the lines need to be? I'm in mid michigan. Thanks.

The best thing to do is ask local contractors what the recommended depth is.

gg