Newbie looking for insert recommendations and air flow advice

[ColdInMN]

Hi All,

We have a large but well built 13 year old house in central MN with a large masonry fireplace to which we'd like to add a wood burning insert. The house is about 5800 sq ft, with 3800 finished sq ft (about 2000 on main floor, plus 1800 upstairs linked by a 2 story foyer which runs almost the whole length of one half the upstairs, with the bedrooms being on the opposite side). We have 2000 sq ft of unfinished basement, which we don't really need heated to comfortable temps.

We have 2 furnaces burning propane but we'd like to make it a lot more economical to heat such a beast of a house. We keep it chilly in the winter just to be affordable, but we'd like to be a lot warmer!

The fireplace is on one end of the house, in a 20'x24' great room with a 15' peaked ceiling. This room opens via a 6 foot wide open archway into a 9 foot deep open space (also with 15' ceilings) and off of that comes our kitchen, dining room, and a very long hallway (all with 9' ceilings) from which the rest of the house is accessed. The great room and kitchen are our primary living spaces during the day and therefore of greatest concern to bring to comfortable temps. It would be a real plus if the heat reached some or all of the rest of the house but we're really not sure how the air flow would work. We don't want to get roasted out of the great room in order for the rest of the house to get any heat. We would definitely run our furnace fan full time to circulate air and plan to add a cold air return vent near the fireplace to facilitate this (currently the great room has no cold air returns, we have no idea why).

The great room has 2 ceiling fans and the open space adjacent to it also has one.

So, I guess if anyone has thoughts on how the heat might disperse in our house or things we could do to facilitate it, they would be appreciated.

Also, we would like some feedback or suggestions on what type of insert to get. Having learned about cat via this site, I'm thinking we'd want to go that route to avoid roasting in the great room and also to extend the burn time (although I am home all day so I can add wood at least every several hours if need be but would rather have to do that less). I think we'd also want a large firebox (looking at ~3 cu ft).

Our fireplace opening is quite large at 47"W x 24"D x 24"H (on sides, with an arch that tops out at 35"H in the middle). Since our fireplace is the aesthetic focal point of our house we'd like to maximize the viewing window space. We really like the looks of the Vermont Castings Merrimack, but I am concerned about the older reviews. Anyone have more info on a recent model Merrimack or the state of the company/quality? Or could recommend another insert given our situation?

Thanks so much!

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

Man, that is a large home! I think I would consider a wood furnace and an insert.

 

[begreen]

Based on the size of the place and the cathedral ceilings involved which are increasing the cu ftg to be heated, I don't think you need to be concerned about going too large. I would go bigger than the Merrimack. I'm thinking the Kuma Sequoia or at least a 3 cu ft insert. But I might be thinking freestanding stove here too.

In the old days they wouldn't try to heat the whole house in winter. Have you considered partitioning off part of the building for summer use only? That might be the most cost effective approach.

Note, code prohibits a return closer than 10 ft to the insert or stove and distributing heat via the hvac system is often ineffective due to duct losses.

 

[Snotrocket]

You need a beast of a free standing stove not an insert.

 

[ColdInMN]

Thanks for all the advice. begreen, I like the looks of the Kuma Sequoia and the fact that if we lose power it will still heat well (we often lose electricty even in nice weather out here, so in winter that is a concern). Thanks also for the tip about the cold air return location.

I don't think we are ready for a full blown wood furnace right now but maybe in the future. We also have a large family and utilize a lot of the space, and unfortunately none of it is really easily segmented off for summer only use.

For now we really enjoy the atmosphere of a fire and would like to capitalize on that to get the 2-3 rooms nearest the insert to a comfortable temp. If the other rooms are colder it's not as big of a deal, and we can heat with our existing propane/heatpump/plenum heater system for those, so wood doesn't have to do all the work. Given this, any further advice on if/how we can move enough air to use a large insert without getting roasted out? Or go with a smaller insert and forget about the rest of the house? The fireplace is on the very far end of the house, as uncentrally located as it could be!

Thanks again.

 

[begreen]

You avoid getting roasted out by not burning a stove full of wood when the weather is milder. It will burn ok with 3-4 good sized splits burning. There are several other inserts that will also work, but I wouldn't go much smaller than 3 cu ft.. With a single fan, strategically placed you may be able to both keep the room cooler and distribute the heat to the adjacent rooms via the large connecting archway. But the killer is the high ceiling. Heat is going to want to pocket up there. You will need ceiling fans in both areas running on low speed. They can blow upward in winter for draft-free circulation. However, during power outages they aren't going to help. That is when having a bit oversized stove is going to be a bonus. A generator would be too.

I'm not excluding the possibility of 2 or even 3 stoves. If you want to post a rough floor plan we can make better suggestions. If you do post, indicated the ceiling height in each room.

 

[ColdInMN]

Below is our rough floor plan. The wood burning fireplace to which we want to add the insert is in red. The Great Room, Kitchen and Dining Room are where we want to prioritize comfort. The yellow shaded portion represents where there is a second story of living space over head. Our basement has the same footprint as the first story shown (but we don't need to have that comfortable).

Also, the blue area is a see-through propane fireplace that is worthless as it has no blower and gives off no heat. At some point we'd like to convert it to something that burns wood and gives off heat although I don't know what is allowed in a sleeping space.

 

[begreen]

Good diagram, that helps a lot. For a simple heat distribution, a basic table or box fan in the kitchen area, placed on the floor, pointing toward the great room archway opening should really help. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. This will help keep the great room temp comfortable and it will help distribute some of the heat to the kitchen area.

Go for a 3 cu ft stove or insert in the great room. On the other end of the house i would consider a tear out of the gas fireplace and replacing it with something of thermal mass with the back facing the master bedroom. This could be as simple as soapstone stove like a Hearthstone Mansfield, or as elegant as a masonry heater like a Tulikivi.

 

[ColdInMN]

begreen, really appreciate your help! Thank you. Will try to put your advice to good use.

 

[ColdInMN]

Go for a 3 cu ft stove or insert in the great room.

Just to clarify, are you saying 3 cu ft or larger would be fine, or that we wouldn't want to go bigger than 3 cu ft given the floor plan? Thanks.

 

[DAKSY]

Below is our rough floor plan.
Also, the blue area is a see-through propane fireplace that is worthless as it has no blower and gives off no heat. At some point we'd like to convert it to something that burns wood and gives off heat although I don't know what is allowed in a sleeping space.

What brand model is your gas fireplace? Most of the newer ones will give you adequate heat. Have you ever had it serviced?

 

[ColdInMN]

What brand model is your gas fireplace? Most of the newer ones will give you adequate heat. Have you ever had it serviced?

Good question, hadn't really looked into it to much beyond being frustrated with it, nor had it serviced. So I looked at the sticker, it says:

GTI Model ST-TR.

Also says "Not a Heat Source" and "Optional Blower Kit", so I'm guessing it doesn't have the blower kit and it really isn't meant to be warm... Looking at the Heat & Glo website I'm guessing the full model is the ST-36TR.

If we added the blower kit and possibly serviced it, would it in theory actually produce heat? That would be a welcomed change.

 

[DAKSY]

Good question, hadn't really looked into it to much beyond being frustrated with it, nor had it serviced. So I looked at the sticker, it says:

GTI Model ST-TR.

Also says "Not a Heat Source" and "Optional Blower Kit", so I'm guessing it doesn't have the blower kit and it really isn't meant to be warm... Looking at the Heat & Glo website I'm guessing the full model is the ST-36TR.
If we added the blower kit and possibly serviced it, would it in theory actually produce heat? That would be a welcomed change.

If that's the unit you have in your home, it's a 37K btu/hr (input) unit. That's a heater. It should put out about 27-28K btu/hr. Installed in a home with average insulation, it should heat about 700 sf. A blower will push that heat farther out into your rooms. The blower installs at one end & will move air out of the louvers on both sides of the unit. If you've had it for 13 years, used it regularly & haven't had it serviced, I'm willing to bet you can't even see thru the glass. It takes on a "milky" color if it's not routinely removed & cleaned...

 

[Huntindog1]

Have you seen this:

 

[ColdInMN]

If that's the unit you have in your home, it's a 37K btu/hr (input) unit. That's a heater. It should put out about 27-28K btu/hr. Installed in a home with average insulation, it should heat about 700 sf. A blower will push that heat farther out into your rooms. The blower installs at one end & will move air out of the louvers on both sides of the unit. If you've had it for 13 years, used it regularly & haven't had it serviced, I'm willing to bet you can't even see thru the glass. It takes on a "milky" color if it's not routinely removed & cleaned...

We are not the original owners of the home/fireplace. We've only used it a handful of times and since it didn't produce heat we assumed it was only for atmosphere and stopped wasting the propane on it. (The glass is still very clear so I'm guessing the previous owners didn't use it either). But it is good to know it should heat the space it's in, we'll look into getting it serviced. Thanks!

 

[ColdInMN]

Thanks, HuntinDog1, I think I did see the video when I started my search for the Merrimack. Do you have any more info on whether the fan noise is a consistent issue and or if it's resolved with the newest stoves?

 

[Huntindog1]

No info on the fan noise but most blowers are going to give you noise. Thats where a free standing stove would be nice. No Noise.

Some freestanding stoves have blowers but the good thing you dont have to use them, they can be used with the blower on or off. An insert you have to have the blower on to get the heat out into the room.

Does your fire place have a ledge that a free standing stove could sit?

Something like a stove like this sitting on a fireplace ledge would look really nice.

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood-stoves/stove-details?product_id=1

 

[ColdInMN]

Does your fire place have a ledge that a free standing stove could sit?

Yes, we've got a ledge that comes out 20" into the room. Do people sometimes put stoves partially in the opening and partially on the ledge?

Which is going to spread heat better, a stove with no blower or an insert with a blower, all other things being equal between the two units?

 

[Snotrocket]

The stove will spread the heat better.

If it were my money, and house I would plop a Englander NC30 either into, or fed up the fireplace and let it go to work.

 

[Huntindog1]

Well you have Radiated heat which heats objects and you have Convection heat which is air flow heat.

If it was my money I would put a nice free standing stove on the 20" ledge.

The free standing stoves you can do either turn the blower off or run the blower , I like the versatility.

You have the ceiling fans that will get you air flow if you dont want to run the stove blower.

If you have an insert you have to run the blower to get the heat out of the stove , not an option , you have too. But an insert will serve you fine if thats what you like.

Its not as pretty but Regency has a new stove that will burn for 30 hours and is extra large for your big high ceiling room. Its a cat stove for long burn.

http://www.regency-fire.com/Files/Brochures/F5100-Brochure.aspx

 

[begreen]

Just to clarify, are you saying 3 cu ft or larger would be fine, or that we wouldn't want to go bigger than 3 cu ft given the floor plan? Thanks.

I'm saying an approximately 3 cu ft stove. I wouldn't get too hung up in the difference between a 2.9 cu ft stove and a 3.2 cu ft stove.

 

[begreen]

Yes, we've got a ledge that comes out 20" into the room. Do people sometimes put stoves partially in the opening and partially on the ledge?

Which is going to spread heat better, a stove with no blower or an insert with a blower, all other things being equal between the two units?

Yes, with the high center arch you may be able to set the stove partially into the fireplace so that you have the required 16-18" of hearth in front of the stove.