Newbie needs help on boiler sizing

[DMX_512]

Greetings to all,
I have been a long time reader..... first time poster. There is certainly a wealth of info here provided by folks that have learned by doing.
That said I hope that y'all can provide some insight.

I have narrowed it down to a Central Boiler 5036 or a 6048. My question is which is a better size/match for my home. I have done a lot of reading and searching but it is sometimes hard to piece all of the info together from all of the different posts.

My heating system is a split/dual zone. Zone 1 is heating an unfinished basement (1200 sq. ft.) and the first floor (1200 sq. ft.). The first floor has a ton of double pane casement windows (18 plus a patio door). The second floor/second zone is 900 sq ft which is 4 bedrooms all with at least 2 casement side by side. The house was built in 1991 and is pretty well insulated.

The real question is...would it be better to get a Central Boiler 5036(196 gal water) and let it actually burn a little longer or get a 6048(396 gal water) and let it idle a little longer but have more hot water to work with? Thinking of a 140k BTU HX for 1st Floor/Basement and a 100k BTU HX for 2nd Floor. We are located in Southern Indiana about 30 miles North of Louisville Kentucky. I see a lot of Hardy H2's around here(my neighbor has one) and Heatmor 200's.

Currently we are using approx 1200 to 1400 gal of propane per season give or take.
I am also planning on heating a 16000 gal pool ( although not really at the same time as heating the house) and DHW.

Any thoughts, ideas, comments will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[flyingcow]

I got 2 neighbors 1 has an eclasssic and it's working well, moderate use of wood, minimal creosote. 2nd one has a 6048 and a bigger house, but is burning tons of wood, incredible creosote problems. Not happy with the bigger is bettter idea. If it were me I'd go with the smaller unit.

 

[DMX_512]

I have considered the E-Classic but I am not sure about being the beta tester.
I have read a few posts regarding the need for a paper clip on the damper in order to get a complete burn.
The price difference from the 6048 is about $1200.00 more for the E-Classic.
As of right now I do not have covered wood storage, although no matter which boiler i go with a decent sized shed is going to happen.

 

[jduke]

DMX, I live in Breck. Co. Ky. @60 miles from L-ville. This is my first season burning a Central Boiler 5036. I'm heating a beauty shop (800 sq.ft.) and my house(1900 sq. ft.) and a water heater also in each. Very happy so far!! NO propane I strongly advise using thermopex underground pipe. I have little if no heat loss from boiler to exchangers. I did oversize my furnace exchangers(BTU size) compared to my furnace rated btu. I used 6-plate exchangers for my water heaters. Since we live so close together you know the weather we've had the last few days, I Fill the boiler no more than every 12-14 hours. My house is SOOOO much warmer than last year.. I burn dry seasoned wood. Poorly dried wood will smoke alot which gives these owb's a bad rep. The paper mill i work at , I know people that are burning Hardys, Aqua-therms, Cb 5036, and Cb 6048's. There all happy! In basic OWB's, Central Boiler's the only way to go. If you have any questions I'll give u my email address. Or my home address, Just come down and see my set-up!! They cost alot, but everybody said i'd wished i'd bought it years ago.. they were right!!

 

[jduke]

DMX, last year I used @ 1200 gal. of propane. ZERO so far this fall/winter...

 

[Hydronics]

DMX,
I would strongly consider a gasification boiler in an outbuilding (could be a small shed with wood stored under an abutting roof). You would want at a minimum a roof over the OWB if you get one anyway. It's not alot of fun loading in the rain/snow/sleet. Even an OWB shouldn't be burning green/ wet wood. Keep in mind that it wastes 1/4 of the energy in the wood to steam off the water of green wood.
Suggestions: Woodgun, Tarm & Eko
For about the same price you could get about 85% efficiency rather than 50% if you get a gasifier -ultimately burn less wood. When you have the money in the future you could add storage for the ultimate in efficiency.
If you are determined to go OWB look at the Heatmor and Sequoia, technologically superior to the Central Classics. A friend had a Central & replaced it with a Heatmor & reduced wood consumption by 1/3. Again, look seriously at gasification though.

 

[jduke]

DMX, I work with two CB burners. One with 5036 @1900 sqft. the other heating 4000sq. ft or >. The one with 1900 has no complaints. The other also has no complaints but burns his owb at 150 degrees vs. 185 dregree. cause he feels it burns less wood.I burn at boiler setpoint of 175. Probably doesn't matter. Lower temp. may allow the fan to blow longer. Not for sure of wood usage. I'm ok with my wood usage so far...

 

[DMX_512]

Thank you all for the replies.

I finally called the EKO dealer near me. From our conversation he thought that an EKO 40 would work.

Great now another boiler to consider. However, I think I know where I can get a 500 gal propane tank for around $150.00. Now I just have to figure out how much it will cost to build an outbuilding.

Argggg.....just when i thought i had it figured out.

Any other folks using an EKO 40?

Thanks

 

[DMX_512]

Oh yeah..

I got a quote on the EKO 40 of $6700.00 including freight and a 3 way Danfoss valve. That is the same price quote i got for the Central Boiler 5036 by itself.
Any thoughts?

 

[Hydronics]

DMX,
It's a no-brainer -the Eko. Have you looked closely at the construction/design? The Eko is 10 times the technology.
Even if you don't install the storage right away you'll be better off than the ineffecient, smoky OWB. If you're tight for cash, just build a very small insulated enclosure around it for now. You'll be loading in the weather like with the OWB though.
Have you priced the underground tubing? When I did mine a few years ago the premanufactured was $12/ft. That gets expensive if it's 150 ft away like mine. I made it with Wirsbo tubing & bubble/foil insulation in 6" HPDE pipe.
The woodgun in my opinion is the Cadillac but that size unit is $11,000! That's why I haven't bought one!

 

[DMX_512]

I can get the boiler between 50' and 75' from the house.
Once inside the house regular ole PEX will go about 30' to hot water tank then 15' to 1st HX then 20' or so upstairs to 2nd HX.

This also raises some questions about storage and plumbing.
I will try to draw up my thoughts but anyone that has some insight/experience with plumbing to/from a storage tank please help.
I had not even considered something like an EKO because i thought that they would be way expensive. I do see the advantage to the storage i just have not considered how to make it all work.

thanks

 

[DMX_512]

Yet another EKO qeustion,

Any ideas on burn times?? More than 2 times a day will be tough for me.

 

[warm in VT]

So, are you sorry you asked yet?! This fall 5 guys from my office alone bought wood furnaces. 3 bought CB e-classics (myself included) and 2 bought tarm indoor furnaces. I have been up and running since Oct. 1 and have the same wood usage as the tarm owners do with their gassifiers. I have been very happy with the e-classic. The "paper clip" thing is just a way to make it work better in the shoulder season while it does not fire as often beacuise there is less draw on the system. Without having the paper clip which just allows a little oxygen to keep the coals active one would have to relight it every day. Read about some of the issues others are having with the indoor gassers and lighting them every day as well as the problems associated with mapping out their indiviual needs and making them run right for their purposes. The CB has been plug and play and I havent had to relight the fire once. It is whatever works best for you. I just wanted you to get the correct info on the CB boiler before you thought it didnt work or had major issues. So far so good and hopefully it will stay that way. There is very little to almost no smoke from the e-classic. Good luck.

 

[DMX_512]

YIKES!

Just when I thought I had it narrowed down to a fairly simple decision.

The EKO looks interesting to be sure. However I will need to build a pretty big building to store the unit, tanks and wood.

I had sort of talked myself out of the E-Classic as well as the Sequoyah E-3400 based on price and beta testing ( in theory). In all honesty i have read good things about the E-Classic and i am glad you chimed in.

I just want to be sure that I make an informed decision because either way I go it is a substantial monetary investment.

Oh man now I have to consider the E-Classic again.
I received a quote of $9700.00 for the stove alone shipping not included.
How does that compare to the E-Classic prices others have heard about?

 

[WoodNotOil]

If I were you, I would either go with the EKO or the E-classic as both are gasifiers. Why invest all that money in outdated technology? These are extremely well made appliances and a long term investment. 20-30 years is a long time to wish you had chosen one. Do it right, do it once!

You would preferably want your storage tank indoors if you have room in the basement or garage for it. Basement is better as heatloss is contained in the house. Your EKO shed would then only need to house the EKO and wood. It does not need to be very big. You can start small and add on later too.

Also, get quotes on the new Tarms and the Econoburns as they are very similar to the EKO. All are great appliances. Good luck!

 

[stee6043]

For an extra three grand I think this decision would be a no brainer for me??? But I do agree with the above posts. I have a friend with the e-classic and he is very pleased with it. Either EKO or e-classic and you'll be happy. But if it were me, I'd be much happier with the extra change in my pocket....to spend on storage and whatnot....

 

[WoodNotOil]

DMX

Any chance you can put this thing in the basement instead? I have my Tarm in the basement and enjoy the ability to feed it, work on it, admire it, obsess over it, etc. in a warm space. I just dump the wood down my bulkhead and stack it on pallets. I personally only keep enough for a week or two in the basement and the rest stacked outside. I also use the basement as a workshop, so I like the extra room. However I know guys that stack all the wood for the season right in the basement.

Doing it this way would save you the cost of burying pex, slab, etc. or the cost of building a separate structure. If you only have one flue in the basement, fossil boilers can be power vented to free up the flue for the EKO. That is what I did (not that I actual use my oil backup anymore!). Others have also put new SS chimneys in just for the unit if the existing flue was not in good condition. Just food for thought. There are a lot of ways to do this!

 

[DMX_512]

I have considered putting something like an EKO in the basement but have decided against it.
Several of my neighbors have wood stoves/furnaces in their basements and they all say that if they had it to do over again they all would go with an outdoor unit.
Also, for me, outdoors will just be better.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I have considered putting something like an EKO in the basement but have decided against it.
Several of my neighbors have wood stoves/furnaces in their basements and they all say that if they had it to do over again they all would go with an outdoor unit.
Also, for me, outdoors will just be better.

Having filled my fathers OWB before in January at 10pm below 0 with high winds, I will never understand the attraction. The supposed "mess" that is being avoided for me consists of sweeping up some loose bark on the basement floor, putting it in a paper bag and topping of the load in the boiler with it. IMHO that sure beats going outside to load it. Your the one that will have to load it, so it is your call.

 

[stee6043]

I have considered putting something like an EKO in the basement but have decided against it.
Several of my neighbors have wood stoves/furnaces in their basements and they all say that if they had it to do over again they all would go with an outdoor unit.
Also, for me, outdoors will just be better.

Having filled my fathers OWB before in January at 10pm below 0 with high winds, I will never understand the attraction. The supposed "mess" that is being avoided for me consists of sweeping up some loose bark on the basement floor, putting it in a paper bag and topping of the load in the boiler with it. IMHO that sure beats going outside to load it. Your the one that will have to load it, so it is your call.

Amen to that...not to mention that if there is any chance of the wife loading the boiler.....you know where it needs to end up.....

 

[Hydronics]

DMX,
I don't think you can beat an Eko with respect to product for the dollar. If you're willing to spend $9700 for the Eclassic you may want to spend $1000 more for what is arguably the ultimate: the AHS Woodgun. It can be ordered in 304 stainless steel so in theory should last your lifetime plus. Check out: Alternateheatingsysytem.com. They believe that the design doesn't require storage which may be valid. I have no vested interest in them but if I replace my Buderus I will strongly consider one.
The other units are all carbon steel and will eventually corrode through, though this may be beyond your desire/ability to burn wood -10 years, 20 years, I'm not sure anyone really knows the answer to this.

 

[DMX_512]

dohhhh,

Now you guys have me considering indoor gasifiers.
Well i guess I asked for it.....the knowledge and experience of folks like all of you. Thanks for the input so far.

It is likely that my wife will have to feed the thing on occasion. My work hours are all over the place.

Those of you with indoor gasifiers a couple of questions.
1. Are termites/bugs an issue? Precautions taken.
2. Venting...our prefab chimney flues do not line up very conveniently.
3. Homeowners Insurance issues? Waiting for a call back from my insurance guy.
4. BTU Output..I am a little confused. The EKO 40 and the Woodgun 140 are both approx 140kBTU units. If I have (2) 100k BTU HX plus DHW and both or all 3 systems call for heat, wont there be an issue?

 

[DMX_512]

Well just got off the phone with my insurance guy.
He says as long as it is installed to Code or to the manufacturers suggestions then it is not a problem at all.

hmmmm.......decisions decisions

 

[Hydronics]

Reply to each question:
1. I have been burning wood all my life, my Father has a basement woodstove, we put 6 cords there each winter. It is always dry though, that's a primary advantage to outdoor you don't have to stack outside to dry then handle all again to bring indoors. After doing it all my childhood, I wasn't going to do it myself.
2. not sure what you're asking
3. you answered
4. That's another major advantage to EKO, Woodgun, Tarm, Econoburn -no need for HX, they're pressurized systems unlike OWB's. Assuming you're tying into a oil/NG hydronic boiler & you have a tankless coil or indirect fired tank, you don't need a single HX -less pumping loss, corrosion, mineral buildup on HX, expense & temp. drop..
If you do outdoor, be sure to use O2 barrier pex & good idea to load with propylene glycol (anti freeze) & 1/2 H2O in case you can't keep wood boiler running -are away or sick. At $8/gallon this not feasable w/ and OWB.

In my opinion the ultimate is a gasifier (Woodgun or Garn-no addl. storage) in an outbuilding -disadvantages: heat loss in underground pex (minimal) & from the boiler in outbuilding (significant). To me the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I have literally spent years researching & experimenting w/ wood boilers, perhaps I'm a bit too interested.......

I hate to muddy the waters further for you but educate yourself on Garn boilers also before making the investment, search this site. Don't go away for weeks though if it's outdoors (too big for indoors) or it will be frozen, maybe cracked. At 1500-2000 gallons glycol is definitely cost prohibitive & it'a a non-pressure system. You can fire it only once or twice a day (big advantage).

My personal conclusion: Woodgun, outdoors, no storage.

 

[WoodNotOil]

Picked these up from another thread going. Proves the point nicely!

My wife complains about the smoke smell sometimes (all the time?) from when I open the EKO up to reload it. However, not only do I love the smell (of money being saved), but it is heaven having the beast in the cellar, along with 5 cords of perfectly dry wood, and just loading it in my bathrobe whenever I need to, even with a snowstorm outside!

I had an OWB last year and my floors were nearly foot cramping cold, this year I have EKO in the basement and all the close to boiler piping exposed and my floors are much warmer I like it like that..Dave