Newbie thinking about taking the plunge...looking for some feedback

[Cant Dog]

Hey Guys,
I am new to this site, have been lurking around here for a while picking up tips and checking out systems and set-ups. I grew up in Southern Maine, in a house with a Kerr Titan and my Grandfather had a wood boiler with 500 gallons of storage way back in the early 80's. His was a top loader red in color designed by professor Hill at U Maine Orono I think??? (Maybe a Dumont or early Garn?). As much as I hated cutting, splitting, and stacking firewood as a kid, I can certainly see the draw and benefits now. I am burning roughly 800 gallons on oil and 3 cord of wood in a Jotul Firelight for heat and DHW. I cut my own wood and have convenient access to plenty of standing red oak. I have a daylight basement with double doors where I can drive a compact tractor in to store my seasoned wood.
My existing heating system may be a bit over the top, I hope it will be easy to integrate with. It is a Buderus boiler with Reillo burner. I have 5 zones of staple-up radiant, 3 zones of in-slab radiant, and a 40 gallon indirect tank for DHW. This set-up uses seperate circ pumps for each zone, a secondary and primary loop with injection pumps. I have outside resets and the staple up zones run at a different temperature than the in-slab zones (can't remember which runs higher). When we built the house 10 years ago I had planned on having a wood boiler, so I have an extra flue next to my oil boiler. I really like the idea of indoor add on wood boiler versus a outdoor unit. (I have roughly 8' of headroom in the basement)
The feedback I am hoping for is;
Should I spend the money on a gasser with storage? Should I look for a used non-gasser without storage to start with? Will it be straight forward to tie into my existing system? Did I read where some set-ups may use a in-slab zone for storage or is that just for a dump zone? Is it safe to dump to a zone that uses PEX? What are the best units for the $ (gassers and non)? Should I heat my DHW with ainstantaneous propane heater during the summer (it is just my wife and I)? Or should we just move south?
I can post some pics of my existing system soon if that helps generate some insight......
Thanks in advance this site is great!
Cant Dog

 

[mikefrommaine]

Sounds like the perfect set up for an indoor gasser with storage. Which boiler depends, do you want storage right away? Some boilers will require storage. What size flue do you have? Having an 8" flue ready to go means you can pick any brand. 6" flue will limit your choices. Biggest question depends on if you believe spending about 1/3 more on a lambda boiler is worth a~3% gain in efficency.

 

[JP11]

You have an almost identical setup to mine. I have the beckett on my buderus due to the fact I wanted an aftermarket pump, as I was running my own biofuel before I installed the vigas.

I'd be happy to show it to you sometime. I'm up by auburn/lewiston.

JP

 

[__dan]

Hey Guys,
I am new to this site, have been lurking around here for a while picking up tips and checking out systems and set-ups. I grew up in Southern Maine, in a house with a Kerr Titan and my Grandfather had a wood boiler with 500 gallons of storage way back in the early 80's. His was a top loader red in color designed by professor Hill at U Maine Orono I think??? (Maybe a Dumont or early Garn?). As much as I hated cutting, splitting, and stacking firewood as a kid, I can certainly see the draw and benefits now. I am burning roughly 800 gallons on oil and 3 cord of wood in a Jotul Firelight for heat and DHW. I cut my own wood and have convenient access to plenty of standing red oak. I have a daylight basement with double doors where I can drive a compact tractor in to store my seasoned wood.

My existing heating system may be a bit over the top, I hope it will be easy to integrate with. It is a Buderus boiler with Reillo burner. I have 5 zones of staple-up radiant, 3 zones of in-slab radiant, and a 40 gallon indirect tank for DHW. This set-up uses seperate circ pumps for each zone, a secondary and primary loop with injection pumps. I have outside resets and the staple up zones run at a different temperature than the in-slab zones (can't remember which runs higher). When we built the house 10 years ago I had planned on having a wood boiler, so I have an extra flue next to my oil boiler. I really like the idea of indoor add on wood boiler versus a outdoor unit. (I have roughly 8' of headroom in the basement)

The feedback I am hoping for is;
Should I spend the money on a gasser with storage? Should I look for a used non-gasser without storage to start with? Will it be straight forward to tie into my existing system? Did I read where some set-ups may use a in-slab zone for storage or is that just for a dump zone? Is it safe to dump to a zone that uses PEX? What are the best units for the $ (gassers and non)? Should I heat my DHW with ainstantaneous propane heater during the summer (it is just my wife and I)? Or should we just move south?
I can post some pics of my existing system soon if that helps generate some insight......
Thanks in advance this site is great!
Cant Dog

If the manufacturer's instructions require storage, Code generally requires installation according to manufacturer's requirements, and Code is generally adopted by State law. I can see using slabs for storage instead of large hot water tanks could cause a lot of customer dissatisfaction, averaged out over lots of installs. Overheating, underheating, and slumbering. The average customer cannot be expected to have a sharp eye on fuel quality, timing fires, modulating fuel loading, and boiler output turndown. There are no slabs I know of that will take the full burn boiler output.

I was afraid of posting my arrangement where people would think they can heat slabs with no storage. I would not sell it that way. I depend on a highly engineered product and compliance to have expectations of lots of installs with no problems.

I would not install a temporary low cost boiler . I would figure that as straight lost money. Definately my thinking would be for a long term capital investment where the result is satisfaction with money well spent. Your 800 gal fuel oil budget, your budget for a trial used boiler install, plus your previous experience gets you all the way there to a budget for state of the art, top of the line install. Gasser with storage, indirect DHW in summer.

 

[nrcrash]

Be careful if your going to see jp's setup. Just warning you... If you see his Vigas 60 running with 1000 gallons of storage, there is no way you will go with any other boiler or set up. Best bang for your buck! Vigas have the lambda controls and compared to a Biomass there not even close to 1/3 more. Only around $600 more, and to be able to load and go without adjusting air dampers... I think its worth every penny!

 

[JP11]

Be careful if your going to see jp's setup. Just warning you... If you see his Vigas 60 running with 1000 gallons of storage, there is no way you will go with any other boiler or set up. Best bang for your buck! Vigas have the lambda controls and compared to a Biomass there not even close to 1/3 more. Only around $600 more, and to be able to load and go without adjusting air dampers... I think its worth every penny!

I agree. I was just struck by how similar my setup is to his. I have a 80 gal indirect.. It's a zone off my buderus. I have 5 other zones. Three are staple up radiant running at 140, and two are in slab running about 105 to 110.

I can for sure show you how I THINK is a really good setup.. with automatic redundancy and great performance. If space weren't an issue.. I'd have had 2k gallons storage, and been able to run one fire a day. I just didn't have the room. You'd think with the space I have, that wouldn't be an issue.. I guess I could pull one of my 275 gal oil tanks.. now that i'm not using it

JP

 

[mikefrommaine]

Be careful if your going to see jp's setup. Just warning you... If you see his Vigas 60 running with 1000 gallons of storage, there is no way you will go with any other boiler or set up. Best bang for your buck! Vigas have the lambda controls and compared to a Biomass there not even close to 1/3 more. Only around $600 more, and to be able to load and go without adjusting air dampers... I think its worth every penny!

Wasn't going to bring up brands as any gasser will probably work fine. But if you want to compare prices between lambda and non lambda boilers I think it is best to look at one brand that offers both. Varmbaronen are the only boilers I'm aware that are available here with or without lambda control:

Vedolux 350 with lambda, 9500
Vedolux 37 without, 6030

So about 1/3 more to add the lambda control. The vedolux has independent control of both the primary and secondary air. I believe the vigas only has primary air control, so there could be some savings there. Personally I believe simpler is better. Less to go wrong. Less to troubleshoot. Less to maintain. And fewer parts to potentially have to replace.

Lambda controls have been said to add 3-5% efficency to a gasser. I can't really say if that is true,but that is what the dealers claim so thats probably best case. To me that means burning an extra 1/4 cord of wood a year.

Just my thoughts, ymmv

 

[JP11]

MIke

I sure won't debate ford/chevy.

As for the lambda, or non.. I think it's more important to have the controls for varying wood load and species. That and the amount of changes going on intra burn are quite amazing to me. It does quite a job of getting the storage to 195. I'm very happy with it.

It acts quite different stuffed full of hemlock vs maple. It acts quite different as the temps in the storage approach 195.

I'm not sure if a non lambda does that with air intake, fan speed and the like. I sure see a lot of guys on here talking about monkeying with things I can't even touch.. I can see them.. but they keep changing intra-burn.

JP

 

[mikefrommaine]

I think it comes down to personal preference and or budget in regards to lambda control. Pros and cons of each. Fwiw I havent adjusted the air controls since the first week I had the boiler. Quick to gassify and no smoke after startup.

 

[tom in maine]

Your grandfather's boiler was a Dumont.
Good boiler which is still available as a used unit here in Maine.
Just sold an 1100g tank to a guy who is hooking one up.

 

[stee6043]

I love how the lambda debate creeps up almost every week now. Just a few short years ago this wasn't even something we could get real detail on, let alone enough to debate its merits.

To the OP - let your budget guide you and go with a boiler brand with a trusted reputation. Local dealer support should also be a consideration (local being high variable, mine is 3 hours away).

I have no trouble recomending my now antique Orlan EKO 40 to anyone that wants a robust, reliable and somewhat budget friendly gasser. I'd say the same for Tarm, Biomass and a few others.

 

[nrcrash]

I have to admit that I really just posted about the price comparison of a Vigas with Lambda controls vs Biomass to get Mikefrommaine amped up. Actually took longer than I thought it would for him to reply. Lol

 

[goosegunner]

I find it interesting that posts have been popping up lately that the Vigas will struggle with smoke at times. Even as some owners rave about it as being the best boiler out there. I have heard even the Froling can struggle from a cold start with a full load of fuel.

If I was shopping the main consideration would be top notch smoke fee loading. The Garn and Froling seem to handle that the best. I would also look at the Tarm solo innova, maybe the Effecta.

gg

 

[stee6043]

I find it interesting that posts have been popping up lately that the Vigas will struggle with smoke at times. Even as some owners rave about it as being the best boiler out there. I have heard even the Froling can struggle from a cold start with a full load of fuel.

If I was shopping the main consideration I would be top notch smoke fee loading. The Garn and Froling seem to handle that the best. I would also look at the Tarm solo innova, maybe the Effecta.

gg

Shoot, I rarely even include the Garn when we have these discussions unless it's new construction or out in a pole barn. Garn's are awesome...I'd buy one in a second but they are BEASTS. Hard to compare them, really.

 

[JP11]

I don't know how ANYONE could say.. I have the best boiler out there. How the heck would you know? It's not like you can "try" em out in your house.

Am I happy with mine. Absolutely.

I bought mine because of Mark at AHONA. All stop, end of story. I've been ecstatic at his level of service. That TO ME is far more important than a few points of efficiency or a few dollars. I don't frankly care about the other boilers, or how they perform comparatively. I feel comfortable that a month, a year, a decade down the road.... if I need service or help.. Mark will still be in the business, and help me out.

To each his own. I only offer to show others my system so they can see, ask questions, and plan their own systems. I'm not trying to sell any boilers. If anything.. I just tell people how happy I am with service from Mark. As long as you have a quality plumber that can follow schematics and ask intelligent questions of Mark during the install.. I think they would be happy with their purchase.

JP

 

[mikefrommaine]

I have to admit that I really just posted about the price comparison of a Vigas with Lambda controls vs Biomass to get Mikefrommaine amped up. Actually took longer than I thought it would for him to reply. Lol

Way to add to the discussion. I was giving my thoughts on the topic. Once one decides on a gasser there are a couple basic decisions that will lead them down different paths. Indoor or outdoor, storage or not, flue size available? And of course lambda controls.

 

[Cant Dog]

Wow,

I had no idea I would get this much good info so quickly! In response to the all the earlier posts, you guys are going to make it difficult not to make a move on this, I feel like a drunk at a VFW! It sounds like using one of my slabs for storage makes no sense. The spare flue I have is an 8"x8" clay lined with a 6" thimble. Funny how my system is crazy similar to JP's, I may take you up on your offer for a tour. So my dilemma is the whole ROI of this "investment". I would consider myself frugal and not rolling in dough. I typically buy high quality if the cost is justified. In this case, I am not sure if I need the latest and greatest boiler with top of the line controls, I mean is an extra 3-5 or even 10% efficiency worth the extra cost? My goal is to save money over time, not burn the least amount of wood possible. Minimizing the smoke will be important along with a simple, trouble free installation. What would a system like JP's cost today? ($15K) I still wonder if buying a used Tarm without storage would be a better investment for me? ($3-4K installed?) What is the best storage for the money (I have plenty of space in my basement)? This is not an easy sell to the Mrs. as you can imagine! I can see myself in this house and burning wood for another 20 years and may consider pellets as I get into my golden years. Are there boilers that can take firewood, pellets, or bio bricks? I missed my chance to grab my Grandfather's Dumont before we sold his house, I kick myself for letting that go. Was that the original gasser? Who is a good dealer near Windham if I do go new?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the good feedback.
Cant Dog

 

[JP11]

I had scrounged tanks.. I was under 15k. But not by a lot.

My oil bills were quite large, so my payback is very short. I own a large amount of land, so wood forver.

I don't think of the lambda as buying the efficiency.. although over time, the gains will pay for themselves. You might argue that you'd have increased mtx. of the few added probes. I like it for the ease of operation. My wife runs the boiler with limited grumbling at me. Just holler if you'd like to look at it. My setup is almost identical to yours.

As for red oak.. get cutting NOW. I started cutting almost a year before I got the boiler. If you have nothing but oak.. you need a couple years drying time.

JP

 

[mikefrommaine]

A bit of a drive but here is a dumont for sale, asking 225.

(broken link removed to http://maine.craigslist.org/for/3402999688.html)

http://www.csmonitor.com/1981/0106/010603.html

I believe it was also called the tempest? The jet stream is a close cousin. Both were ahead of their time and eventually done in by falling energy costs. I'd look for one of them before a used non gasser. Though storage is required.

Best kind of storage? That is another heated debate. In the end I went with pressurized propane tanks because they fit my space best. Gallon for gallon once you figure the total cost between insulation, exchangers or expansion tanks i don't think there is a big cost difference between pressurized or unpressurized storage.

Maine wood furnace and revision heat are the only dealers that I know of in southern Maine.

 

[Fred61]

I don't know how ANYONE could say.. I have the best boiler out there. How the heck would you know? It's not like you can "try" em out in your house.

Am I happy with mine. Absolutely.

I bought mine because of Mark at AHONA. All stop, end of story. I've been ecstatic at his level of service. That TO ME is far more important than a few points of efficiency or a few dollars. I don't frankly care about the other boilers, or how they perform comparatively. I feel comfortable that a month, a year, a decade down the road.... if I need service or help.. Mark will still be in the business, and help me out.

To each his own. I only offer to show others my system so they can see, ask questions, and plan their own systems. I'm not trying to sell any boilers. If anything.. I just tell people how happy I am with service from Mark. As long as you have a quality plumber that can follow schematics and ask intelligent questions of Mark during the install.. I think they would be happy with their purchase.

JP

That's right! That's what I was trying to say a few threads back. The guy that stopped burning kerosene and installed that old porous pot belly stove would recommend it to anybody. "Never seen anything so nice." Hard to know where you are if you haven't been anywhere else.

 

[tom in maine]

The original gasser was the Madawaska. The Dumont came along not long after.
The best of those original units, IMHO, was the Kerr Jetstream.
Essex and Eshland evolved into the the WoodGun design.
After those, the Garn appeared.
Then, I think the first Tarm gasifiers.
Everyone refined the European designs.
The first ones were here in Maine.

Funny thing is, Dick Hill, who invented the gasifier boiler concept, burns wood in an old (1970's) not very efficient wood stove.
And he just installed Natural Gas in his house for backup.
But, he also has oil, coal and a mini-split heat pump there also.

At age 94, he likes to play.

 

[Cant Dog]

Great info, insight, and discussion! I need to make a correction, my spare flue is only a 6"! What does that limit me to using?
Thanks,
CD

 

[mikefrommaine]

If you want to be code compliant it rules out any boiler without a 6" flue. I know the tarm, biomass and woodguns have 6" flues. May be others.

Some dealers will tell you it's fine to use a reducer. And some people do without trouble but it's not something I would do in my house. If only for insurance reasons.