No water in house

[shoot-straight]

you guys are such a resourceful bunch- I don’t think you can help but at least I can whine some.

Came in from working late, immediately jumped on Tractor to mow grass till dark. Came in went to wash my hands and had little to no water come out the faucet. Crap.

Went out and checked the breaker. Nope. Went out and checked the hydrant that bypasses our softener, nope. Went into crawl space to see if there was a major leak. Nope.

I have an electronic constant pressure box next to my tank in the crawl. There was a little smell in my crawl of burnt electric. Made sure breaker was off and opened the box cover. The box has a fault light, and the codes for the faults were displayed on the back of the panel cover. I thought “great” maybe I’ll be able to fix it, or at least trouble shoot it. Asked the wife to flip the breaker. There was a quick flash of light and a puff of smoke off one of the boards inside. Breaker is now off and I’m screwed..... likely will have to replace the whole unit. About a grand it looks like.

Rant over-

 

[heat seeker]

If it were me, I'd "hotwire" the pump - connect it directly to the power, and use the breaker to turn it on and off. You'd have to watch the pressure so you don't overpressure it. Quite inconvenient, but at least you'll have water to flush and wash, and if someone works the breaker for you, to shower.
I'd hope the control box doesn't cost any $1,000, but you never know these days.

I'd hit the hardware store and get an old-fashioned pressure switch and connect it in. If the motor is compatible, that is.

 

[Ashful]

I'm no expert on all residential well pumps, but I am fairly well-versed on motors, and have replaced a few well pumps in my own houses. Most cannot be "hot wired" as heat seeker suggests, as they require a start capacitor.

Assuming here that you have a submersible pump. Check the wiring from the pump to the controller, and you'll likely find three wires. These are common, run winding, and start winding.

The controller should NOT cost a grand, though. They usually run $65, and you could have it swapped out in 30 minutes. What happens on most motor controllers is the start capacitor fails. It's very common. Now, as to what that did to the rest of the electronics on the board, I can only guess. Start cap's only cost $4, but you'll get a new one in that new $65 control box, so it's a done deal.

There is some chance your pump is seized. This can cause the start capacitor failure, as most start cap's are connected and disconnected via potential relay or inrush relay, either of which will fail to open when your pump is fried. If that's the case, then you're looking at an additional $400 for a pump, plus labor to swap it out (pretty quick job, if it's accessible).

If you're comfortable with basic wiring, you might just pick up a new pump controller at Lowes Depot, and see if it resolves your problem. If not, at least you got that part of the repair off your plumber's bill, and you can consider your options for swapping the pump. I've done my own at 150 feet depth, but wouldn't want to do much deeper than that without help.

 

[heat seeker]

I just went and looked at my setup to be sure. My pump (220V) is submersed, and has one red and one black wire going to it (plus the green ground). The pressure switch is a two pole switch. There is no capacitor above ground. There may well be one on the motor (Gould), but none above ground. My setup could easily be hotwired.

 

[Ashful]

Good! But that's not the setup I typically see around here. It may be an age thing, I always live in older houses, so I may be quoting old technology.

Yes, there has to be a start capacitor on any single-phase motor, with the exception of motors having a commutator (eg. repulsion-induction motors, universal motors). It's surprising that they'd put a start capacitor at the bottom of a well, since they probably fail 4x more frequently than motors, but I guess anything is possible. Pumps also fail more frequently than motors, so it's possible they determined the failure rate of the cap is better than that of the pump, making it more sensible to submerge it and simplify the wiring.

 

[shoot-straight]

Thanks guys. The constant pressure machine is all digital and yes is very expensive. It’s much more than a traditional pressure switch.

I am guessing that it’s only a capacitor or similar that burned up. It physically burned up- an electronic guru could make the repair to the board, but likely will just have to replace the whole unit. Wondering why it failed. Hoping my pump didn’t take a dump as well.

Hopefully my contractor will come and get me on my feet later this am.

 

[peakbagger]

Yup, there has been a big shift in pump technology to variable speed drives. Most older homes have a fixed speed pump that turns on at a low pressure setpoint and turns off at high pressure set point via a cheap pressure switch. The really old submersible pumps will have a start capacitor integrated with the pump and only two wires (with an additional ground) running to the pump. Most newer submersibles have an external start capacitor located in a "control box" and has three wires plus ground running to the pump. Capacitors have a limited life and they usually fail with a bang or at least a burning smell. If its a two wire pump, the pump needs to be pulled out of the well while a three wire pump does not need to be pulled when the capacitor blows. The capacitors are cheap and pretty universal. In order to keep the pump from cycling there is a pressure tank. Some installers go cheap with a small tank and that means shorter pump life. Some installations will add in a pump protection device, its usually in the capacitor box and monitors the pumps operation by looking at the power being sent to the pump. They are solid state and if it detects unusual operation it will shut off the pump. One of the many things it may detect is continuous pump run indicative of a major leak in the piping. It wont keep the basement from flooding but may limit it.

The new technology is a constant pressure system using a pump that is operated at a variable speed. The pressure switch is replaced with a pressure transmitter (which may be integrated with the pump). The pump motor is usually a three phase motor or a three wire single phase motor that is being run like a three phase motor by using the start winding. There is no need for a large pressure tank. The variable speed motor ramps its speed up and down slowly so there is no significant startup surge. For folks running on a generator its the way to go as they can use a much smaller generator. There is some efficiency gain compared to a fixed speed pump. The pump down in the hole should last longer. The down side with a constant pressure system is that the electronic drive boxes are expensive and not standardized. Unlike a cheap pressure switch, you are not going to find a variable speed drive at Home Depot. Pump companies like them as they dont have the competition and get a service call and a high markup on the part. Not many folks are willing to wait a couple of days to get their water back so they pay the bill. The controllers are rarely repairable so its an easy service call. The other trade off is that the controllers can put some electrical interference in the household wiring. Most folks don't notice it but some electronics may. The controller will also include pump protection software. Most variable speed drives use capacitors as part of the electronics and they do have limited life. Its rare that they can be replaced.

 

[Highbeam]

Even, or especially, the large 1000gpm type pumps in utility systems are variable frequency now too. Power savings, easier on the very expensive pump. The VFD drives can be really noisy.

In my home, I would want a non VFD system for just the reasons that peakbagger pointed out. Most of our residential pumps are 150-250 feet down the hole and on a poly pipe so pulling them is no big deal but I'm not convinced that pump life is all that different with a VFD vs. a conventional pump with a large expansion tank. Yes, power demand at startup is higher but that just means a bigger generator to handle the surge.

Oh another benefit of the VFD is a constant pressure in the house. Not the 40/60 psi swing of a conventional system.

For the OP, you let the smoke out of the board. Going to need to call in the guy.

 

[shoot-straight]

Well the well pump went and fried my digital constant pressure device. Replacing pump and going to an old school pressure switch. Not ponying up the extra 1000 for the CP one. Especially if they are so poorly protected from damage.

 

[peakbagger]

Make sure you increase your pressure tank size. The bigger the better.

 

[Ashful]

Make sure you increase your pressure tank size. The bigger the better.

Within reason. Going too big can cause a host of problems, including water quality (not enough full tank cycles per week), over-running your pump continuous duty rating, and sucking your well dry during dry periods with heavy water usage (eg. lawn irrigation in July).

However, you must make sure your tank is large enough to give your pump adequate cool-down period between runs and starts. A submersible pump will be rated for so many starts per 24 hour period (eg. 300 starts per day up to 0.75 hp). They should also run a minimum period of time after start-up (eg. 1-2 minutes) to cool themselves after start-up, and should have some minimum period between starts (several minutes).

Based on my own (very limited) experience, it seems the recommendation most often ignored in pressure tank setting is the minimum recovery time. Every house in which I have lived has a minimum recovery time around 30-40 seconds, whereas most pump manufacturers seem to recommend > 1 minute.

These VFD controllers are very cool. I’ve dealt with them before, but never for residential well pumps. I love the idea, but it seems they’re solving a host of possible problems I’ve never had.

 

[shoot-straight]

I guess in the end, it’s just me and my wife- not a whole family. I just would rather replace a broken 500$ pump rather than a 500$ pump and a 1500$ control board.

Thanks guys the water is back on!

 

[peakbagger]

Good to hear, I was curious on the reliability of these variable speed drive units and now I have one data point.

The utilities in Massachusetts heavily subsidize the use of VF drives. A lot of the places I go get pallets of them and convert over practically every pump and fan motor. They save energy but there is a known issue on larger motors that VF drives can ruin bearings prematurely unless the shafts are equipped with conductive brushes. I have a friend that manages large apartment complexes and after he switched motors to VF drives he was chasing all sort of bearing issues. The pump shops blamed it on folks welding on the pipes with the ground clamp on the wrong side of the motor. The damage looks identical. Voltage builds up in the rotor due to higher level harmonics in the power sent to the motor and eventually the voltage gets hihg enough that it discharges through the bearings which makes a pit in the bearing race. I had a few 200 HP motors suffer this fate so we rigged up brushes for them. Even so called inverter duty motors have this issue unless they are equipped with conductive shaft seals. Aegis is one brand.

 

[DickRussell]

Good to hear, I was curious on the reliability of these variable speed drive units and now I have one data point.

Well, now you have two data points. I have a Franklin SubDrive 75 for the pump in my well, with a small pressure tank. The thing was installed in 2010 and has performed without a hitch since then. I have no idea if my experience is an anomaly or just typical. I would think that if atypical then the company or concept would have failed by now.

 

[Ashful]

Well, now you have two data points. I have a Franklin SubDrive 75 for the pump in my well, with a small pressure tank. The thing was installed in 2010 and has performed without a hitch since then. I have no idea if my experience is an anomaly or just typical. I would think that if atypical then the company or concept would have failed by now.

Well pump failures are — or at least should be — measured in decades, not years.

 

[shoot-straight]

For the record my pump and panel were installed in 2003.

Yes 14 years is not long enough for me.

 

[semipro]

I was considering a variable speed pump since we also use an open loop ground source heat pump HVAC system which results in a lot of pump starts/stops. After researching the dependability of variable speed pumps I decided instead to go to a dual-pressure system with a booster pump. The well pump supplies water at higher flow but lower pressure to the ground source heat pump. All other domestic uses get lower flow but higher pressure water.