'Normal' running temps on BKK, Summit, Steel Hybrid or ??

[DougA]

I need to replace my VC Resolute this summer as it's far too small for this winter and the chimney is now 30 yrs and IMHO pushing the limits of safety.

I've gone through a lot of threads on similar questions but I can't find the answer I want so far anyway. I'm looking for a larger cat stove to compare to a building a masonry heater and I am fed up with comparing BTUs, which I prefer to call BSUs. I'm trying to find out which larger cat stoves are comfortable running so the stove top is in the 600* + range continuously. Maybe they all do this but I keep reading that under 500 is normal.

Stove surface area plus high temperature means more to me than all the glossy brochures. I am convinced that there is no single stove at 450* that is going to provide enough heat for what I need when it is bitterly cold and windy. If I want to make a serious dent into my heating bill, I need a stove that will be running 600* or higher 24/7 for a week or two without blinking. I don't care if it runs 40 hrs on one load or if it looks like sh*t. I want heat and it would be nice to have one that does not require a fan. I like silence too. A friend just installed 2 stoves and you have to raise your voice to be heard over them.

Suggestions? Answers -

 

[Highbeam]

I'm trying to find out which larger cat stoves are comfortable running so the stove top is in the 600* + range continuously.

Suggestions? Answers -

You are doing yourself a disservice by choosing an arbitrary temperature and making that a requirement. However, the stove most likely able to atch your exceedingly high performance requirements is the king. A non-cat won't be able to do it, it will coal up, I've tried it. You'll need to run a cat stove or maybe even a hybrid hard to get and keep that 600 temperature.

The pH is a good candidate but is a medium sized stove. Lopi cape cod? Also smallish. How about that regency:

http://www.regency-fire.com/Products/Wood/Wood-Stoves/F5100.aspx

You don't care about looks.... have you considered a wood furnace? More heat, better controls for hard running, and bigger fireboxes for less loading.

 

[DougA]

Thanks for the reply. I don't have the duct work for a wood furnace but that's why a masonry heater seemed to fit my requirements best. Lots of heat.

I looked at the Regency but why that and not the Summit? The Summit would appear to produce more heat but I can't tell by using numbers from different mfgs. There is no consistent standard. The reason I'm concentrating on the temps is because that's what I can compare best. The VC I have is considered 'medium' and it can't keep up in the cold. Huge difference when running at 600 though. Apart from the continuous temps above 900 in a chimney, I can't understand what stoves can run hot and what stoves can't. I spoke to a dealer and he said I should be running at 375!! Really? There sure is not a lot of heat at 375 coming off the stove. At 600 or even 800, I can't see anything on a cast stove being at risk.

BTW, I have 3 thermometers with one being a digital probe in the pipe just after the stove and my VC is a non-Cat.

Maybe another question I should ask is this: when clearances are created by the mfg., what temp are they running the stove to get their numbers?

 

[rideau]

I'd suggest calling Woodstock and asking them your questions. They'll answer them. The PH certainly can be run consistently at 600 without damaging the stove. I just don't think you'll need to, although a few owners do so. At 525, which is what I run at when the outside temps are in the -20F range and it is windy to boot, the stove is putting out a great deal of heat. I've never needed to run it hotter.

Tell Woodstock your situation, ask your questions about how stoves are running when clearances are determined (I'm pretty sure the answer is the stoves are being run way hotter than we normally do or should when they are running those tests). And ask them whether they feel the PH or the IS is more desirable for your location. Then, at least you'll have an answer re Woodstock products, and re testing in general.

I love my PH. But, if I didn't have a stove and someone gave me an Ideal Steel, I surely would not complain. I do think the PH, with its mass, and its slightly higher high end output potential, is the best choice for me. That said, I have never pushed this stove to anywhere near its potential. I've never really crammed the stove full of wood (seldom fill more than a max of 3/4) and have never burned with all 20 to 22 inch lengths. Most of my wood is 14 to 18 inches, with some longer pieces. More wood and longer lengths, and run at higher temps, the stove could give me way more heat, more than I have needed for sure.

 

[fire_man]

I also started life in my house with a 1986 VC Resolute that was too small. I replaced it first with a Fireview, then with a Progress that I have stuffed to the max with 22" splits and it's still not quite enough stove when it's 20F outside. I'm looking into supplementing with yet another stove. I'm heating 2300 sq ft.

How much space are you trying to heat?

 

[DougA]

BTW, checked on the Regency web site. I just remembered that we went to one of their dealers to look at the stove and the dealer was pushing us to buy a Lennox instead.
Hmm. I guess I should let the company know that.

 

[DougA]

I hate to get into space - the final frontier. (joke)

The problem with sq ft is that there are too many variables. I've got one large room where the wood stove sits that is about 30x30' but 15' ceilings and one wall that is all windows. On top of that, another 1500' that gets heated as secondary. Since I am replacing the VC, I want to make sure it is replaced with something oversized. I'd rather open a window than turn up the thermostat. Last thing I want is 2 stoves running. It would not be much of a stretch to change wood heat from sorta enjoyable to not.

I will call Woodstock tomorrow. I did phone a month ago and was asking on delivery expectations of the Steel Hybrid. They were great to talk to.

 

[Highbeam]

The summit is a medium/large non-cat stove. You asked about large cat stoves. Remember to ignore those peak output btu numbers, you won't be able to sustain them in a non-cat. If a summit sized stove at 600 can get the job done then a much larger stove at much lower temps makes the same heat. Now if that much larger stove can sustain the higher temp for 12 hours then you will surely beat a small, hot, short burning non-cat.

 

[Highbeam]

You don't need much ductwork with a wood furnace. There is a large range between perfect ducted distribution to each room and a big open duct on top or maybe just to the upper level. They are not pretty in a living room though.

You make it sound like you need lots and lots of heat, willing to tolerate other things to make sure that you have enough heat.

 

[fire_man]

It's true that square footage is not the whole story. I also have tons of windows and a cathedral ceiling. You just have to remember a wood stove is still just a space heater, and no matter how big the stove is, the heat has to spread through the whole house.

 

[DougA]

Oops forgot that Summit was a non-cat. I started out trying to avoid a cat but after a lot of reading, seem to think that it would be better.
Hope to hear from BK owners. Tried to get into the BK thread but 855 posts is mind boggling and my mind wanders way too easily.

 

[rideau]

Also, aside from evening out the heat, a cat stove is more efficient, a hybrid even more so, and you will get more heat from either than from the same wood burning in a non cat stove.

 

[blueguy]

I'm still learning my Sirocco 30, and even though the temps have been slightly warmer this week, I can sustain 500 - 550F stove top temps at just under 2 on the dial.

 

[begreen]

Also, aside from evening out the heat, a cat stove is more efficient, a hybrid even more so, and you will get more heat from either than from the same wood burning in a non cat stove.

That is not quite correct. Just because a stove has a cat does not make it more efficient. There are lots of designs out there, some better some worse. The amount of heat extracted from the stove (heat efficiency) is not solely dependent on whether it is a cat or not. The Wittus Twin-Fire is a prime example of a super efficient non-cat.

 

[jeff_t]

My King will run for 7-8 hours at around 600°. It will finish up at 5-550, if you stay with it raking coals and adding a small split or two. That is good hardwood, ash and oak, and around a twelve hour loading cycle. If I pick and choose my splits, I can fit over 100 lbs of oak in it, but I would rather save that for more moderate weather. It makes a mountain of coals that can last forever, and I need to be burning wood in cold weather.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the temp over the cat can be misleading. It is top center of the stove, and when burning on a low to moderate setting can easily pass 600 with a fresh load. I won't see any fire, only a bright orange cat. Six hundred with an active fire is making a lot more heat, as the whole stove is hot, and there is a lot of heat radiating thru the glass.

Mine is an Ultra, and came standard with side shields and convection deck.
The blowers really make the stove perform. I have never burned it without them, but I suppose removing the side shields would make a much more
radiant heater. The blowers aren't terribly noisy, and my wife would rather have them running wfo. 'White noise', she says.

 

[Highbeam]

Also, aside from evening out the heat, a cat stove is more efficient, a hybrid even more so, and you will get more heat from either than from the same wood burning in a non cat stove.

Woops, unfortunately for woodstock and their hybrid PH, they are not as efficient as the BK cat stove. They may have less emissions but the hybrid is less efficient. Really close though.

 

[Waulie]

Stovetop temps comparisons are actually meaningless. When you are doing an all (or mostly) cat burn with a cat stove, the stovetop temp is going to be high but that doesn't mean our overall output is high. For example, I can run my PH at 500 stovetop temp with virtually no flame for hours on end. I would never compare that output to a stovetop temp of 500 with the secondaries rolling. There really isn't a bigger apples to oranges comparisons with stoves. You can run a "low burn" with a cat stove and still register high stovetop temps, but the overall output is low. You can run lower stovetop temps without a cat and get way more overall output.

 

[Highbeam]

Stovetop temps comparisons are actually meaningless. When you are doing an all (or mostly) cat burn with a cat stove, the stovetop temp is going to be high but that doesn't mean our overall output is high. For example, I can run my PH at 500 stovetop temp with virtually no flame for hours on end. I would never compare that output to a stovetop temp of 500 with the secondaries rolling. There really isn't a bigger apples to oranges comparisons with stoves. You can run a "low burn" with a cat stove and still register high stovetop temps, but the overall output is low. You can run lower stovetop temps without a cat and get way more overall output.

Well said Waulie.

 

[jeff_t]

Stovetop temps comparisons are actually meaningless. When you are doing an all (or mostly) cat burn with a cat stove, the stovetop temp is going to be high but that doesn't mean our overall output is high. For example, I can run my PH at 500 stovetop temp with virtually no flame for hours on end. I would never compare that output to a stovetop temp of 500 with the secondaries rolling. There really isn't a bigger apples to oranges comparisons with stoves. You can run a "low burn" with a cat stove and still register high stovetop temps, but the overall output is low. You can run lower stovetop temps without a cat and get way more overall output.

Yeah. That's what I meant.

 

[rideau]

Woops, unfortunately for woodstock and their hybrid PH, they are not as efficient as the BK cat stove. They may have less emissions but the hybrid is less efficient. Really close though.

Good that the BK is so efficient.

BK and Woodstock are designed to be burned quite differently. Never supposed to let a Woodstock smoulder, BK works well smouldering it seems. Hence the ability wtih the BKs to get really low output over a very long time. Are the efficiency numbers for the BK an overall efficiency, or is data given re efficiency at low burn and at high burn rates?

 

[DougA]

Stovetop temps comparisons are actually meaningless. When you are doing an all (or mostly) cat burn with a cat stove, the stovetop temp is going to be high but that doesn't mean our overall output is high. For example, I can run my PH at 500 stovetop temp with virtually no flame for hours on end. I would never compare that output to a stovetop temp of 500 with the secondaries rolling. There really isn't a bigger apples to oranges comparisons with stoves. You can run a "low burn" with a cat stove and still register high stovetop temps, but the overall output is low. You can run lower stovetop temps without a cat and get way more overall output.

Ya lost me somewhere. Pretend I'm stupid.
Are you saying one stove that an exterior of 500 can be a lot hotter than another stove that has an exterior of 500 - assuming they are the same size? And the heat is coming from - where? Please explain a little better for the unsmart people. So the top is hot but the rest isn't?

 

[Highbeam]

Good that the BK is so efficient.

BK and Woodstock are designed to be burned quite differently. Never supposed to let a Woodstock smoulder, BK works well smouldering it seems. Hence the ability wtih the BKs to get really low output over a very long time. Are the efficiency numbers for the BK an overall efficiency, or is data given re efficiency at low burn and at high burn rates?

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf)

It would seem that for these types of high efficiency stoves (woodstock and BKs) that to get lower emissions you need to give up some efficiency.

While it seems that the woodstocks are not designed to smolder, it would be false to assume that BKs are not supposed to be run hard. The flexibility to run either of these stoves over a broad range of outputs is what makes them such excellent heaters.

 

[aansorge]

I have a king and it is great, but for your application, you would need to run the fans to heat the space.

Perhaps the kuma sequoia is the stove for you? Much smaller box, but still big. And quiet!

http://kumastoves.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=15

 

[Highbeam]

Please explain a little better for the unsmart people. So the top is hot but the rest isn't?

That's it. When on lower output settings, the actual fire is a big pile of cold fuel with a glowing red spot in the middle making smoke for the cat to eat. The cat is eating that fuel and glowing red hot so the stove top right above that cat is 600. When the output setting is cranked up, the whole pile of fuel is engulfed as well as the cat glowing red hot so the whole stove is at 600. Big difference in output even though stove top temps are the same.

Non-cats aren't like that. They're always cranked.

 

[blueguy]

So the top is hot but the rest isn't?

In a nutshell, when burning low in a BK, yes - the area right over the cat is hot, but the rest isn't.