Not vent free or direct vent?

[lasitter]

Our current LP gas fireplace is vented up a chimney chase in a flue that is not an all-fuel triple wall chimney system. As a result our LP gas fireplace (I'm told) has to have a glass cover over the firebox.

My wife wants to be able to eliminate the glass front and install a natural gas fireplace. I've been told that to do this you need to either vent it up a masonry fireplace or replace the existing chimney system with a triple wall pipe that can contain the heat in an enclosed chimney chase.

Several questions:

What do you call gas fireplaces that can be so installed, if they are neither direct vent or vent free?

I've been told that (by nation fire code?) the triple wall chimneys can't make a sharp right turn. Can they make a 45 degree turn followed by a short length of straight pipe, and then another 45 degree turn? Where do I read up on this.

Knowing the right name of the fireplace insert that would serve my needs would really help ...

TIA ...

Edit: More searching and I've seen the term "open fronted" applied to the old wood burning fireplaces we've been accustomed to. For the wife, it's all about aesthetic qualities ...

Edit: More help here http://www.bobvila.com/articles/2051-gas-fireplaces-101/

Natural vent, often called 'B vent', utilizes an existing masonry chimney or a factory-built metal chimney. Room air exhausts combustion by-products to the outside via a flexible liner or single pipe installed within the chimney.

Direct-vent fireplaces draw in outdoor air for combustion, then expel spent air to the outside through a dual (co-linear) venting system, eliminating the heat loss associated with conventional chimneys, according to technicians at Majestic Fireplaces. They can be vented up through the roof or out to the side or back of a house; a perfect solution for homes without an existing chimney. Direct-vent units must, however, have a sealed glass door to maintain proper combustion and ensure efficiency and indoor air quality.

Vent-free technology, once considered controversial, has now won wide acceptance. Robert Dischner, director of product development at Lennox Hearth Products states that "the fireplaces use catalytic-converter technology [similar to exhaust systems on new cars sold in the U.S.], which cleans hot air as it leaves the combustion chamber. Because of this technology, no chimney or venting is required." Further, he says, "their sleek look is much like a plasma television."

So another thing I'm now wondering is whether it would be possible to have an open fronted fireplace that draws combustion air not from the room, but outside or some heated space? The Heat-n-Glo 6000 TRLX doesn't do this, I'm pretty sure ...

 

[BrotherBart]

What do you call gas fireplaces that can be so installed, if they are neither direct vent or vent free?

They are called "B-Vent" when the combustion air comes from the living space and the products of combustion exits through a chimney to the outdoors.

 

[lasitter]

They are called "B-Vent" when the combustion air comes from the living space and the products of combustion exits through a chimney to the outdoors.

Yes, I had just discovered this as you'll see on a follow up edit.

Any chance you can help me with the questions regarding pipe requirements, or how they are / are not permitted to turn?

 

[lasitter]

I was just talking with a vendor and now understand that the laws changed in 2004 and again in January of this year such that vent free might be the best option for me.

Vent free is accepted in all but a few states now, and now vented fireplaces must have not only the glass in front but also a screen now.

I had always thought that natural gas fireplaces depleted oxygen detrimentally, but given their BTU ratings, they really should have little additional effect beyond the running of a gas stove.

 

[bholler]

Vent-free technology, once considered controversial, has now won wide acceptance.

It is still not looked upon very favorably by many including myself. It really sounds like what you are looking for is a fireplace with a gas log set in it. What do you have now?

 

[lasitter]

It is still not looked upon very favorably by many including myself. It really sounds like what you are looking for is a fireplace with a gas log set in it. What do you have now?

Heat-n-Glo 6000 TRXL

 

[bholler]

Heat-n-Glo 6000 TRXL

I know very well that the manufacturers say there are no problems at all. I have been in many homes with them and i can smell it and feel it as soon as i walk in if they use them much at all. They have been tested and they are safe but you are exposing yourself to the products of combustion and pumping allot of moisture into the house at the same time. If that is what you decide to go with that is up to you but as a pro i will never install a vent less unit in any house

 

[bholler]

That 6000 series unit is not at all what i was referring to the only way i know to have an open gas fire is with a wood burning fireplace with a gas log set in it.

 

[DAKSY]

Our current LP gas fireplace is vented up a chimney chase in a flue that is not an all-fuel triple wall chimney system. As a result our LP gas fireplace (I'm told) has to have a glass cover over the firebox.

Your DV fireplace is designed & tested with DV pipe. The glass is required so that there is no exchange of household air with combustion air or combustion by-products (sealed combustion).

My wife wants to be able to eliminate the glass front and install a natural gas fireplace. I've been told that to do this you need to either vent it up a masonry fireplace or replace the existing chimney system with a triple wall pipe that can contain the heat in an enclosed chimney chase.

A ventless fireplace or a vented gas log may be your only options. You will NOT get heat from the gas log. Neither requires Class A chimney.

Several questions:

What do you call gas fireplaces that can be so installed, if they are neither direct vent or vent free?

The only other option is a vented or un-vented gas log or a B-Vent unit, but the B-vent will still have a glass front.

I've been told that (by nation fire code?) the triple wall chimneys can't make a sharp right turn. Can they make a 45 degree turn followed by a short length of straight pipe, and then another 45 degree turn? Where do I read up on this.

NFPA 211 dictates that a Class A chimney cannot utilize offsets of greater that 30 degrees in the US.

Knowing the right name of the fireplace insert that would serve my needs would really help ...

TIA ...

Edit: More searching and I've seen the term "open fronted" applied to the old wood burning fireplaces we've been accustomed to. For the wife, it's all about aesthetic qualities ...

Edit: More help here http://www.bobvila.com/articles/2051-gas-fireplaces-101/

Natural vent, often called 'B vent', utilizes an existing masonry chimney or a factory-built metal chimney. Room air exhausts combustion by-products to the outside via a flexible liner or single pipe installed within the chimney.

Direct-vent fireplaces draw in outdoor air for combustion, then expel spent air to the outside through a dual (co-linear) venting system, eliminating the heat loss associated with conventional chimneys, according to technicians at Majestic Fireplaces. They can be vented up through the roof or out to the side or back of a house; a perfect solution for homes without an existing chimney. Direct-vent units must, however, have a sealed glass door to maintain proper combustion and ensure efficiency and indoor air quality.

Vent-free technology, once considered controversial, has now won wide acceptance. Robert Dischner, director of product development at Lennox Hearth Products states that "the fireplaces use catalytic-converter technology [similar to exhaust systems on new cars sold in the U.S.], which cleans hot air as it leaves the combustion chamber. Because of this technology, no chimney or venting is required." Further, he says, "their sleek look is much like a plasma television."

So another thing I'm now wondering is whether it would be possible to have an open fronted fireplace that draws combustion air not from the room, but outside or some heated space?

This technology does not exist, AFIK. Heat & Glo experimented with the technology about 10 years ago, but I don't believe it was ever completely accepted. Others can chime in here...

The Heat-n-Glo 6000 TRLX doesn't do this, I'm pretty sure ...

Heat & Glo does not make the model you are citing. There is a 6000 TRI & a 6000 TRX-I. Both are DV & sealed combustion.

 

[lasitter]

I know very well that the manufacturers say there are no problems at all. I have been in many homes with them and i can smell it and feel it as soon as i walk in if they use them much at all.

Do you notice it more than when people use an unvented gas stove for cooking? Depending on the model, the BTU can be very similar. We have an open floor plan with about 2000 sqft in the area directly communicating with the fireplace. I would think that if it were to work anywhere, it would work in such a space.

In any event, it's not what I started out wanting to do.

The Heat-n-Glo backs up to a masonry fire tile lined chimney, presently used by a Buderus oil fired boiler. My plan was to switch the furnace to a natural gas condensing one which could be vented without using the chimney. Then I wanted to "steal" that chimney for use by a wood burning fireplace with gas log set.

Even though the demolition would be manageable, no one nearby has any stomach for this sort of work.

 

[DAKSY]

If the weather in Ludlow is the same as it is in Averill Park, & I am almost directly West of you,
you're gonna wanna rethink the open front when you find out how much warm air
(ie. air you have already burnt fuel to heat), gets sucked oout of that big hole in your house.
An open fireplace - nice to look at, yes, efficient, NO - is no better than having a campfire
in your living room. Your fuel bills will increase over last winter, because your furnace will run more.
The job is doable, but not economically practical.

 

[lasitter]

Your fuel bills will increase over last winter, because your furnace will run more. The job is doable, but not economically practical.

My wife is not practical. She wants the aesthetic of an open front fire, like we had in our 1939 home in Pawtucket, RI.

I never waste time trying to persuade her that she should want something else because it's practical ...

 

[bholler]

Do you notice it more than when people use an unvented gas stove for cooking? Depending on the model, the BTU can be very similar.

No the main difference is that for one a cooking appliance usually does not run near as long as a heating appliance and most of the time that cooking appliance is not running at full btu output either. I will say that on holidays when we are cooking most of the day yes i can smell it in our house. Also most high btu output ranges have a minimum cfm for the exhaust vent listed in the instructions and tell you to use it always. This basically makes them vented units

 

[bholler]

Again these units are tested and safe if used as instructed. I wont tell they are dangerous but i know i will never put one in my house or in any of my customers houses

 

[danimal1968]

I know very well that the manufacturers say there are no problems at all. I have been in many homes with them and i can smell it and feel it as soon as i walk in if they use them much at all. They have been tested and they are safe but you are exposing yourself to the products of combustion and pumping allot of moisture into the house at the same time. If that is what you decide to go with that is up to you but as a pro i will never install a vent less unit in any house

If there was one thing I would change about my wife's house (came with the wife) it is the vent free fireplace. It smells, it makes the room humid, and the all blue flame gives little of the ambience you want from a fire.

 

[bholler]

If there was one thing I would change about my wife's house (came with the wife) it is the vent free fireplace. It smells, it makes the room humid, and the all blue flame gives little of the ambience you want from a fire.

Exactly what i was referring to thanks for confirming it

 

[CaptSpiff]

......
The Heat-n-Glo backs up to a masonry fire tile lined chimney, presently used by a Buderus oil fired boiler. My plan was to switch the furnace to a natural gas condensing one which could be vented without using the chimney. Then I wanted to "steal" that chimney for use by a wood burning fireplace with gas log set.

Even though the demolition would be manageable, no one nearby has any stomach for this sort of work.

I had to re-read your original post twice, but still couldn't believe what you wanted until you confirmed it with your blueprint photo. It is the opposite of every customer request I've ever had.

You appear to have two flues, one a masonry tile lined for the basement oil boiler, and the other a vertical direct-vent designed for a wood chase. An outside photo of the chimney chase top would be helpful in confirming.

You seem to be heading down a road where you'll install a ZC open front wood burning fireplace with a class-A metal chimney. Then stuff it with a gas log setup. That will set you up for the scenario DAKSY described.

You'll likely need a separate new full class-A chimney because the existing masonry tile lined flue is likely sized too small for any "open faced fireplace" to vent into. It is likely sized big enough for venting a gas log set, but where are you going to find a "B-vent open front gas ZC fireplace" ???

This may call for a time-out. Might be cheaper to ask the wife what the other things on her list are, and tackle one of them.