Nuby trying to make a smart and sustainable choice

[Vitai]

Hi Everyone,

Happy to there is such a dedicated community of experts out there as this is the first wood burning stove I'm hoping to buy.

I live in a community on the outskirts of Barcelona, Spain and the only source of heet that we have is wood.
I'm looking for a model to heat my room (+/- 40m2). I def want a good amount of thermal mass and to have a glass door to see the flames. I would also like the stove to be as efficient as possible as we are cutting our own wood and any time saved with that would be great.

In particular I've found these two models that I believe could fit my purposes well.
Invicta: Sedan 10 (+/- €900) --> (broken link removed to http://www.invicta-sa.com/portail/en/produits/chauffage/128-poele-fonte-sedan-10.html)
Efel: S33 (+/- €1800) --> (broken link removed to http://www.efel.be/nl/the-s-series-28.htm)

I believe the Efel to be a better make but I'm not sure if this is true as it's more based on instinct than any facts and I'm still wondering that even if it is better does this justifiy the fact that it's so much more expensive.
Also any other models that could compete with these two would be interesting to hear.
ohh yeah the whole remote control thing on the S33 is nice but this doesn't interest me that much I'm more about durability, sustainabililty, long continous burn, etc.

Hoping to hear your thoughts on the matter...

All the best,
Daniel

 

[begreen]

Welcome. The Efel S33 is a nicely designed stove and very good looking. Efel has been making efficient stoves for a long time. You might also want to look at Hergom stoves. They are made in Spain and should be a better value. The Shelburne is in the size range you are looking at. These stoves are sold in the US under the Hearthstone name. If you search on them you will find reports and good reviews.

(broken link removed to http://www.hergom.com/gbr/products/productos/9-shelburne)

 

[Vitai]

Hi Begreen,

Great to hear about the Hergom's I didn't know they were produced in Spain which is nice.
as the stove will be quite central in our living room I'm also quite keen on the astetics being as pleasable as possible (eventhough efficiency and durability our still higher on the priority list)
In that line, I'm not to attractied to the Shellbourne checking out their website I however could image either the E 20N or the E 30M or S (no sure which would fit better).
assuming at least that these would be of similiar quality.

Thanks for widening my choice.

Cheers,
Daniel

 

[begreen]

To decide on the stove size we need to start with how much volume of air is being heated. Is this room all that will be heated by the stove or is this space open to other areas of the house? How high is the ceiling in this room? If the ceiling is high (greater than 10 ft) is there a ceiling fan in the room? Is the room or house insulated?

 

[Vitai]

Hi Begreen and everyone,

My Partner and I form part of an sustainable comunity on the outskirts of Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_Masdeu).
The building is a 16th century mansion with thick walls and high ceilings. We however just moved into the attic/penthouse where the walls our much thinner (+/- 18cm brick). The cubic metres of the space is a bit tricky as it's actually two connected spaces both with a sloping roof but I'd say appoximately 60m3. The ceiling/roof is fairly well insulated with in some parts wool and other rockwool. windows and doors are not the tightest of fits but I hope to improve this in the coming weeks.

As for the size I'm more inclined to get a model that is on the bigger side for our current room (if it still has a good efficiency when burning slowly) as we are expecting our first child in Nov and we don't know how long we will stay here. If in the future we get a bigger space then the slightly bigger stove would be more useful.

On another note I'm wondering how the Hergom stoves measure up to the Efel and Invicta. Are these three all more or less in the same quality range?
Are the Hergom E series as good as the hearthstone (Shellbourne) line?

Thanks again for your interest and support.
Daniel+Queralt and little Vitai

 

[aansorge]

You live in a commune and are concerned with aesthetics and buying new? JK. I see you are interested in size and quality as well and I think this is far more important. Small stoves obviously have short burn times and this can become annoying after awhile, so definitely go for size over looks if you ask me. Still you don't want to go too big if it will overheat the place all the time.

 

[Vitai]

Hi Aansorge,

yeah you caught me there!
The stove is however a present from my father (who's a tenured professor at NYU) wich gives me the luxury of thinking about what the thing is gonna look like besides the actual quality and its performance

So with you comments in mind about the size I guess I'd choose one of the following:
Efel S33
Invicta Sedan 10
Hergom E 30M

Any help with the difference in quality or performance of these products would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
D.

 

[begreen]

Efel and Hergom have been in the business for quite a while. Both have excellent foundries that make beautiful castings. The Efel S33 is a newer model but comes as an evolution of the Harmony series. Here is a thread that discusses the stove with some videos too.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/efel-s33-wood-stove.113510/#post-1515119
The Hergom E20 and E30 are not sold in the US, so I am unfamiliar with this line. However, Hergom have been making stoves for a long time as well. The Shelburne is a very nicely made stove with soapstone lining that helps it release heat even after the fire has died down. But it sounds like you prefer the more contemporary look which is fine. If you do decide on the E30 I would get one of equivalent output as the Efel S33. Would this be the E30L?

One important note. Modern stoves need a better chimney than older simple stoves. Will there be enough height for a 5m flue? If you are in a loft space you will want to have a fan to break up the hot air that will stratify at the peak of the roof. If there is no ceiling fan you may need to have a fan blowing upward from the floor to create some circulation.

 

[Vitai]

Begreen,

Okay I think I've made up my mind and am gonna try to convince my dad that the Efel S33 is worth the extra money.
The 8hour burn time this model boosts will likely come in very handy for night time feeding and quickly restarting the stove in the morning.

Thanks for the heads up on the flue length. I think the maximum I would be able to get without much extra work is around 4 metres. I'm inclined to try to see if I can get away with that without and problems. If however I notice things aren't going smoothely the first thing I would do is to create some kind of structure to add an extra meter to the flue.
No ceiling fan included and a small fan blowing up is something I hadn't thought of before so will def keep that in mind.

Thanks a lot for the help and will let you know how things turn out....

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Ashful]

Dan,

What type and diameter of flue do you plan to use? Metal (class-A)? Insulated liner in an old masonry flue? Terra-cotta flue? Please describe.

 

[Vitai]

Hi Joful,

Hmmm yeah that's a good question here in the house the majority of stoves are run on single walled galvanized metal tubes of (120mm).
Which I guess is not exactly best practice from what I've been reading

First I have to admit I was considering just sticking to the single walled tubes and just getting the 150mm ones to fit the stove. Now though I'm thinking that if I'm gonna spend the money on a really good stove it would make really little sense to have a pretty chitty chimney...

There are no old chimney ducts I can hook into so I think I'm still looking at metal tubes. But would upgrade to the solid packed stainless steel type.
I'm however very open to suggestions.

The path of the Chimney is also a bit wild as it tries to keep as much of the chimney inside the room as to increase the heat exchange and to avoi having to make a hole in the roof. here a description.
the flue rizes from the top and goes straight up 1m
the flue bends 45 degrees and travels upward at this angle parallel to the ceiling/roof to the highest wall (+/- 3m)
It crosses the wall and bends 45 degrees up to vertical again and rizes 2m
at the end a little rain protection hood or possibly a passive fan hood (if this is better)

Not sure if I'm providing the right info here nor if my little imaginary chimney is actually gonna work so any help advice on the matter is greatly appreciated.

Thanks a bunch
Dan

 

[Ashful]

I follow what you're saying, and this is not my area of expertise, but there are many here who know this stuff well, and will advise. I do wonder how you'll penetrate the wall with the tube running at 45 degrees from horizontal, though. I suspect you'll need a second 45 inside to get horizontal for the wall penetration, and then a 90 replacing your 45 outside the wall, but I very well could be wrong.

 

[begreen]

The interior pipe should be black stove pipe. Double-wall connector would be better. As it penetrates the wall it should transition to insulated high temperature pipe.

 

[Vitai]

Begreen,

Ahh wow that's great to hear.
I had kinda hoped that I would be able to use the simple black metal ones for the inside as they are much cheaper than the insulated tubes but I wasn't at all sure.
Would you recommend putting the single to double wall connecter inside the room, in the wall or right on the outside?

Thanks for all the help!

Daniel

 

[begreen]

The transition occurs in the thimble which is what penetrates the wall normally. Remember that the interior single wall pipe must be at least 18" away from any and all combustibles. It will get hot.

I'm not sure what piping is available and normally in Spain. You should find this out at the stove shop. Here we usually use a wall thimble that is designed to maintain proper clearances. If your situation is all masonry walls they may connect a snout on a tee of class A high-temp pipe and cement that snout into the wall. Or they may recommend going straight up through the roof which is usually a bit less expensive and provides a cleaner, better drafting chimney.

Can you post some pictures of the proposed location?

 

[Ashful]

This is obvious, from begreen's post, but just in case the OP missed it: The way Vitai described hugging the ceiling, he may need to either change his plan, or transition to double-wall a little farther down. Can't run single-wall too close to a ceiling.

 

[begreen]

Yes. That's why I want to see some pictures and indicated the 18" minimum clearance requirement for single-wall connector pipe.

Dan, note that the double-wall we have been talking about is interior-only, connector piping. This is not the same as the heavily-insulated, class A high-temperature pipe that penetrates the wall or roof and continues up to the chimney cap. Double-wall, interior connector pipe would reduce the ceiling clearance down to 9".

 

[Vitai]

Hmm looking at the clearance I have available I think I might have to go to double walled interior tube as soon as I get to the ceiling. If I go for the single walled I would likely run into trouble with the window and other obstacles.
I've included a picture of our room. The big blue ball represents the stove and up in the left corner you can see the old single 120mm pipe which goes straight through the wall at around a 45degree angle. the old chimney was connected straight to this pipe on either side of the wall.

I'm imagining that if I used double walled pipe the heat transfer will be a lot less and thus running the pipe through the room might not make that much sense. Is that correct or will I still be gaining something substaniable with the pipe going up to the top of the wall as it does now?
Even if the heat transfer is not that much I'm still pretty hesitant to put a hole in the roof as It's an old tile roof and I'm afraid I won't be able to get it waterproof again.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this interesting puzzle and very much appreciate the input I'm getting from all sides.

kind regards,
Daniel

 

[begreen]

Thanks, that helps us visualize the issue much better. This doesn't look like a great setup. It would be much better if the stove could be installed to the left of the door, right below the flue connection.

Where does that 120mm pipe go to? Is it definitely 120 and not 150 mm?

 

[Vitai]

Not ideal because the pipe would be too close to the roof or because the length of 45 degree rise is to long?

Placing the stove to the left of the door is something we hadn't considered before and were looking at this space as a little kitchenet area.
But hey things can always open to change if they have to

The current pipe is 120mm and just traverses the wall (+/- 17cm thick) and sticks out about 20cm on the other side. It is from the last stove used here by another person.
I'd planned to take it out make the whole larger slide in a 150mm pipe and cement it into place.

let me know what you suggest....

Thanks,
Dan

 

[begreen]

Not ideal because the pipe would be too close to the roof or because the length of 45 degree rise is to long?

Placing the stove to the left of the door is something we hadn't considered before and were looking at this space as a little kitchenet area.
But hey things can always open to change if they have to

The long angled interior run and closeness to the ceiling are both areas of concern. Relocating the stove to right under the new 150mm pipe exit would not only perform better, it would be safer as long as there is room for the stove there. It may take reorganizing the space, but it sounds like you are up to the creative challenge.