NY natural gas ban update

[EatenByLimestone]

I have thought of this. It’s a valid point. But it’s not incredibly different than cooking the thanksgiving turkey. Maybe most houses aren’t tight enough, or people are cooking small turkeys now. I don’t hear any issues other than choking or knocked over turkey fryers catching garages on fire with thanksgiving.

Unvented appliances are in general bad.

 

[begreen]

The difference from 2007 to now is that we have a ton more data. Utilities now clearly know that renewable energy is less expensive. The net cost and environmental impacts are well defined. Rising global and ocean temps are a fact as are rapidely diminishing polar ice and glaciar disappearance (much of the world's water supply. Rapid ecosystem die off is pretty much unprecedented unless compared to a catastrophic event. These are factual statements of the world we live in and are leaving our children.

That doesn't mean that common sense should not prevail. This is so difficult when disinformation is the weapon of those with the strongest vested interests. FWIW, our solar has paid for itself and it went in just before I retired. It still continues to pay us now through net metering.

 

[EbS-P]

I have thought of this. It’s a valid point. But it’s not incredibly different than cooking the thanksgiving turkey. Maybe most houses aren’t tight enough, or people are cooking small turkeys now. I don’t hear any issues other than choking or knocked over turkey fryers catching garages on fire with thanksgiving.

Unvented appliances are in general bad.

People who are trying to heat open the oven door and turn on all the burners. They are desperate at this point. They leave it overnight. That’s not how one cooks a turkey!

 

[begreen]

People who are trying to heat open the oven door and turn on all the burners. They are desperate at this point. They leave it overnight. That’s not how one cooks a turkey!

Though it is a way to cook your goose.

 

[woodgeek]

And you use the same tired talking points for your argument.

How so? I am saying that trillions of dollars are being spent fielding renewable energy around the world. That is verifiable.

The other talking points point to hypothetical future scenarios like 'we will all be sitting cold in the dark when a bunch of fools ban our needed energy supply'. When there is no historical precedent for any govt doing anything like that.

 

[Duds13]

How so? I am saying that trillions of dollars are being spent fielding renewable energy around the world. That is verifiable.

The other talking points point to hypothetical future scenarios like 'we will all be sitting cold in the dark when a bunch of fools ban our needed energy supply'. When there is no historical precedent for any govt doing anything like that.

It's the same nonsense over and over with the climate changers.

Fossil fuels are bad
Cow flatulence causes global warming
Who cares that solar panels are made in China, they are going to help the US climate!
Better make our cars shut off every time they come to a stop
California wildfires are caused by climate change!

Gates gave up on the nonsense and even Greta (last name escapes me). She gave up and is now focused on freeing Palestine. LOL!

I could go on and on. But hey, at least there's a group of tree huggers singing rap songs about climate change in Brazil now. That'll show em!

 

[woodgeek]

Yeah. Times change. Technology and industries change.

Nowadays, people fly in airplanes that run on kerosene. Before that they rode in trains that ran on diesel, and before that on coal.

Used to be that computers were toys. and the internet didn't exist. Or we had horse and buggies before cars.

And each of these tech changes occurred because the new thing was better than the old thing. And affordable enough to enable the change.

And that is exactly where the world is now with green tech. In countries around the world folks are building huge solar farms and wind farms and battery banks. And buying millions of EVs. Because they can see that these things are better than the old thing, and they can make or save money by doing so. And they believe that reductions in their air pollution, improvements to their countries trade balance and energy security, as well as their global warming benefits make the change a no-brainer.

And the many large companies selling all that green energy equipment are taking in trillions of dollars, whether they are in China, Europe, India or the US. And a lot of young people are going to school to learn about it and getting jobs building and installing all that stuff. There are already a lot more jobs just in solar in the US than there are in coal mining.

And there are some other legacy companies selling (still very much needed) fossil energy who are raking in trillions of dollar in subsidies from their governments. Some countries actually give their fossil energy companies more free money than they spend on health care!

And during each of these tech changes there were folks saying that the new thing was bunk, and never gonna happen. 'Ill never get a computer, or use the internet, or fly in a plane,' or more recently 'I'll never get a smartphone, or buy an EV'. And most of the time, grandpa or grandma eventually reverses himself/herself and tries the new thing when they see that all their neighbors and friends are doing it. And then they just stop talking about it.

That is the situation as it stands in 2025.

 

[woodgeek]

There's more.

During these tech changes, the old tech gets worse on the way out.

--when folks started just using apps for everything instead of calling somewhere to do their business... calling in got worse.

--when people started flying everywhere instead of taking a train, train service got worse.

--when folks started streaming movies off the internet, broadcast TV got worse.

Oh and how those late adopters and grandpas got big mad about waiting on hold for an hour (and hour!) or 'talking to a robot!' or how this or that thing they always did, now doesn't work right anymore.

So, yeah, ICE cars nowadays are getting worse. I rent ICE cars when I travel and they are awful. The start/stop thing makes me crazy and I think its unsafe. They are super expensive, and hard to repair, and have all these badly designed driver assist functions that are super annoying.

And then I go home and get to drive a real car.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

There’s 1 big difference. With the prior technologies, people were free to make the choice themselves, when it was right for them.

Now, there are some who want to force people into making that choice before the technology is ready.

The question is, what are *YOU* willing to do to enforce this? Are *YOU* willing to take people’s livelihood away? Their money? Their children? Their life?

Just a few short years ago, the answer for many to the above questions was yes.

Is it still? Have the people who convinced themselves that they know best learned nothing?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Out of curiosity, who suggested that the annoying start stop feature be put on cars?


August 12, 1986 Ronald Reagan gave us his famous like about the 9 scariest words.

“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help.”​

 

[EbS-P]

Out of curiosity, who suggested that the annoying start stop feature be put on cars?

It’s not mandatory. It’s the best solution to reduce emissions…. Don’t run the engine.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Out of curiosity, who suggested that the annoying start stop feature be put on cars?


August 12, 1986 Ronald Reagan gave us his famous like about the 9 scariest words.

“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help.”​

AMEN!

 

[Dieselhead]

Lots of subsidies for the Ev industry/solar as well. Good ol eversource using “public benefits charge” to pay for Ev charging stations so they can sell electricity that supplies those chargers. Not to mention the free charging stations. Nothing is free.

 

[DBoon]

That is the situation as it stands in 2025.

And in 2050 the people who don't want any of these changes will have mostly left this earth (or be a very small portion of the population) and those remaining will be asking themselves:

• "Can you believe that we used to drill thousands of feet into the earth, inject toxic chemicals into the earth (and our groundwater) and break the rock to get a gas to surface only to then have to transport it all over the country through pipelines buried in the ground to then burn it in our homes to produce heat when we can now just collect electricity from the sun and run a heat pump to do the same thing?".
• "Can you believe everybody used to routinely go to a place and pour some explosive liquid into a car and then drive around exploding it a million times an hour in something with a thousand moving parts that required lots of ongoing expense and maintenance?".

Kind of like:

1. Can you believe that every house had one phone connected to a wall by a wire and you would have to sit by the phone to talk to anybody and have your entire family listen in to your conversation? Can you believe that some of us in rural areas shared a phone line with 4 to 8 other houses (a "party line")?
2. Can you believe that houses used to have an antenna mounted to your roof or in your attic and if you lived near a big city you could get three TV channels plus some grainy UHF stations? If you lived in a rural area maybe one channel (or none).
3. Can you believe that a hundred years ago somebody came by in a truck and dumped a load of coal into your basement through a chute, and then you would have to add it to the coal furnace several times a day to have heat that was distributed from the furnace to the first floor through large grates in the floor, and the second floor was heated (poorly) by rising from the first floor?

These are the kind of things I tell my younger (i.e., 25 to 30 years younger) co-workers at work and they are dumbfounded.

I could think of a lot more.

The point is that there are lots of people who don't like change of any kind. And yet change happens even though many people complain about it. Most of us just tune out those who just don't like change of any kind and move on with our lives. Change is going to happen whether you like it or not, and trying to get everything to "stay the way it is" or to "go back to the good old days, like the 1980s or 1950s" is a exercise in futility, especially when the slowly abandoned "old" technologies become more expensive and worse as their market share declines.

We've deployed enough of the technologies that are discussed in this thread to know that they work and are already cheaper (and usually better) OR are on cost-reduction curves that will make them cheaper (and even better) in the very near future. Those who think that ending solar PV subsidies or EV subsidies will permanently reverse adoption of these technologies will be in for a rude surprise. Even if you don't believe in any bad effects from any type of climate change, these technologies still are cheaper (or trending there) and better (with a few fringe case exceptions). Every person I know that buys an EV tells me that they would never go back to an ICE vehicle. Those who add a ductless mini-split to augment there oil furnace are shocked at how much money they save. When the technologies get even cheaper and better adoption will only accelerate (despite some near-term headwinds due to loss of subsidies).

Right now, we are probably at the point where there the population of the US is 20% anti-change, 20% already adopted the changes, and maybe 60% in the middle (not yet changed, but mostly amenable to the change at some point in the future). See you in 2050 - I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Out of curiosity, who suggested that the annoying start stop feature be put on cars?


August 12, 1986 Ronald Reagan gave us his famous like about the 9 scariest words.

“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help.”​

There’s 1 big difference. With the prior technologies, people were free to make the choice themselves, when it was right for them.

Stop and starting an engine like that, especially in the city stop and go traffic will ruin it. Not to mention the draw on the battery and alternator and other related electrical parts. I'm sure this has been engineered out, but I would never own a vehicle that did that. It would drive me crazy.

Not to mention the level of technological know how required to keep something like that running through it's lifetime.

Taking current operating power plants off-line because of current technologies is fool hardy. Once the technology has proven itself over a life cycle (life cycle of wind turbines, solar panels and related battery banks, etc) then we will have enough data to decide to accept it or not. Right now we don't have enough information to support a decision.

That doesn't mean that I disagree with buying an battery powered car or using solar, wind or hydro or whatever means to power your home. I think it's great that as individuals in a mostly free society you have those options and can make an informed decision that fits your needs. But don't force me to accept something that isn't ready for primetime and won't be for at least another 20-30 years. But by then you will have to get my children and grand children to accept it, as I most likely won't be on this great earth any longer.

I'm not anti green or purple or whatever. I use solar lights around my properties for walkways and area motion sensor spot lights. I also have big heavy duty electric LED spotlights when I really need to light up an area.

I use wifi thermostats to control my heat. Not the google ones anymore, because they want the power company to be allowed to monitor my usage and control my thermostat. I threw all of the nest products in the trash, refused their mandatory $200 per thermostat upgrade and found another brand that isn't invading my privacy.

I have replaced many of my gas powered outdoor power tools and indoor tools with battery powered tools. String trimmer, hand held leaf blower, 6.5 circular saw, an oscillating multi-tool a drill and a driver. And rumor has it that Santa is bringing me a Dewalt 60 Volt 16 inch chainsaw.

My lawnmower and snow blower and generator are all gasoline powered. The tech for the first two isn't there.

I hand split my wood with a maul and a hatchet.

Lets go hypothetical for a second. Let's say I'm a believer. What if I told you I erected a 150 wind powered turbine on my wholly owned 10,000 s/f lot and covered the rest of my yard and roof with solar panels. I built a garage and filled it with tens of thousands of batteries to store my power. Then I flipped the main breaker and told the electric company see ya. I'm pretty sure that by winter I'd be back on the grid or running my generator 24/7 to have enough power to keep everything running.

The technology isn't truly proven and it's not smart to be putting all of our eggs in one basket. I still keep my old power tools (some of them anyway, like a circular saw and a drill). The E85 garbage corn gasoline that Massachusetts has made mandatory has ruined my chainsaw, my string trimmer, my blower and just about every other piece of small engines that I own.

Right now I'm in the process of replacing my carburetor and fuel line after flushing my gas tank of rancid E85 that has been in my generator for 6 months. I treat the gas with sta-bil and it still goes bad before it's time. I dump all 15 gallons in my truck and my V6 Toyota Tacoma 4 door eats it alive, water and crap additives and all.

Prior to 2001, I was a consumer of technology at both home and at work. I experienced first hand the flaws of technology and also the theories of what was supposed to happen. I saw that it could be a lot better. If the proper tools (tech stuff) were employed, deployed and maintained at a high level, to the personnel that needed it most, when the technology and personnel were ready.

In closing. I'm retired now, but from 2001 until 2015 I was the sole person responsible for all the technology in a city department of over 200 persons, to include the entire department network; wired and wireless wi-fi and wireless data, 175 desktop computers, 25 vehicles that included wireless data laptop computers, hundreds of handheld and mobile radios, base station radio equipment, a large server room with a multitude of servers providing all sorts of security and essential services for a community of 75,000. The was much more but in the interest of public safety it needs to remain confidential.

We had battery backups, a generator and monthly tests to be sure the technology would stay up.

I'm into technology. I lived it 24/7 for 14 years.

I don't care what is popular. Just because something is popular, doesn't make it right or just. I didn't do the work I did or develop into the person I am because I listened or followed what was popular. Heck there was a time that the guillotine was quite popular but I don't think any of us want to see that happening again.

Oh and the old technology. Lets talk about car phones, bag phones, flip phones, non flip phones and finally smartphones. How long did that evolution take until people dropped their land lines. It took a long time. The initial technology was developed and deployed in 1946 but it wasn't until 1964 that Motorola developed more reliable technology in 1964. Today is 2025. Do the math.

So there's my basis of knowledge. I'm done arguing this point. If I am forced to "comply" it will be met with resistance. I also support 2A.

 

[woodgeek]

There’s 1 big difference. With the prior technologies, people were free to make the choice themselves, when it was right for them.

Now, there are some who want to force people into making that choice before the technology is ready.

The question is, what are *YOU* willing to do to enforce this? Are *YOU* willing to take people’s livelihood away? Their money? Their children? Their life?

Just a few short years ago, the answer for many to the above questions was yes.

Is it still? Have the people who convinced themselves that they know best learned nothing?

Sigh. The point of the thread is about banning nat gas installs in NEW construction. Turnover of appliances and housing stock takes DECADES. A ban on new construction will not bankrupt the gas companies or even affect sales for a long time.

The reaction in this thread is AS IF someone is proposing to ban the use of natural gas in society. And everyone is saying 'the government can take my gas water heater over my dead body!' and 'what will we use for electricity'?

Nope. It's just that its pretty clear that a decade or two from now most folks are **not going to want** to have gas appliances in their houses. So why are we installing them now, just to rip them out (expensively) a few years from now?

When the 'new technology is ready' there will be a subset of people (aka late adopters and makers of the old technology) who will argue that it isn't ready.

The incandescent bulb ban is a good example. Did we ask 'will YOU go to the people working in the incandescent bulb factory and tell them they are FIRED, and their kids are going to be homeless now'? LOL. Folks got really cranked bc of a lot of non-sense clickbait back then, but the reality is the the ban was delayed again and again for over a decade UNTIL alternatives were cheaper and better. That case is much more pressing than a gas ban on new construction bc a gas stove lasts a lot longer than a lightbulb.

What if builders were installing incandescent bulbs in new construction (that cost $0.25 and burn out in a few years) to make a few bucks more profit? In 2025 that would be pretty egregious, and if it was a widespread problem you could regulate against it.

When we banned smoking in most restaurants folks said... they are going to BAN cigarettes, mark my words, or what not. Nope. They just banned them in restaurants, and now folks smoke a lot less bc its not a social/cool thing anymore. Done.

On the last point, there is a thing called public policy. Leaders need to make a LOT of decisions, and they can hire experts to try to figure out what is the best (cheapest and healthiest) way forward. I think its a reasonable thing to ask experts about health policy and finance and technology. The only alternative would be what, to have a referendum and 'pure democracy' for every little policy decision?

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

ok @woodgeek you earned a like from me. You are correct about the intent of this thread. However at some point, like technology; it veered some from it's intended initial inspiration.

Learn to code... remember that line? That and other reasons is why when big government makes a decision to employ a thought process to protect us from ourselves, I become extremely suspicious. Is there a hidden agenda for the gov of NY to not allow NG for new construction? Since the beginning of our time, it has been wise to look at and think about why something is the way it is and why are particular decisions being made. Follow the $$$.

 

[woodgeek]

Learn to code... remember that line?

Yeah. I both learned to code AND decided it would be a terrible career path.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

its nice to have the choice to accept technology on one’s own terms. If I want to instal a gas furnace in my new house, then tear it out in 3 years, why do you care?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It’s not mandatory. It’s the best solution to reduce emissions…. Don’t run the engine.

But is it better long term? I personally believe we’re going to see a lot of vehicles in the junk yard due to failing electrical systems.

My personal experience with this was a failing window control/door lock not allowing me to turn the truck on. What happens when that switch is no longer made? What happens when the computer that runs it is no longer made? Is this making our life better?

Is it better to junk a vehicle that’s only a few years old or create the emissions to make a new one? I’m sure the govt has the best of intentions with their regulations.

 

[begreen]

Economics is what is driving the change. The problem with natural gas is that it takes a chit-ton of wells to supply the needs of the populace. And those wells start declining in output quickly, so one needs to keep drilling a chit-ton more wells, every year. That's a lot of holes in the earth and not beneficial when anywhere near an aquifer.

Renewables are now core to the national energy plan. They make up close to 25% of what powers and heats homes and businesses. This isn't because of subsidies, it's because it's cheaper and when compared to coal, more resilent and reliable. Utilities are adding to their renewables portfolios because demand is rapidly increasing and this is the most cost effective way to satisfy it. Unlike gas wells, they don't decline in output in a few years and are lower maintenance. When teamed up with grid storage, they provide a dependable, best-priced source of power. Smarter grid technology will make this even better. Some basic ave. cost/megawatt comparisons:

• Wind: $30–$40
• Utility-scale solar: $25–$35
• Natural gas: $45–$70
• Coal: $70–$120

Then there is the environmental impact.

• Coal produces around 1,000 g CO₂ per kWh
• Natural gas: ~450 g CO₂ per kWh
• Solar, wind, hydro: under 50 g CO₂ per kWh, mostly from manufacturing

I'd add that nuclear power is going to have to be part of this picture until fusion power becomes a reality. Demand, largely from cryptocurrency and AI data centers, is growing at a staggering rate. I'm not at all happy about that this pressure. It's a high risk, profit-driven gamble with a most uncertain societal outcome.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Wasn't there experiments with hydrogen powered vehicles a few years ago. Any idea what happened to that project?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Went boom with a colorless flame?

 

[EbS-P]

But is it better long term? I personally believe we’re going to see a lot of vehicles in the junk yard due to failing electrical systems.

Do you have any evidence that eco start stop reduces longevity. Think of FedEx trucks. They are start stop all day everyday.

 

[EbS-P]

If I want to instal a gas furnace in my new house, then tear it out in 3 years, why do you care?

Who is stopping you now? No one! This ban only applied to new construction. Now there are laws that you must use your seat belt. Think about that. When confronted with evidence that seatbelts do in fact, save lives so many people refuse to use them we had to make a law requiring them. Nanny State trying to keep people safe.

Again with new construction techniques, building codes ect natural gas kills more people than it saves (antidotal I could probably find a reference but it likely won’t influence this discussion).