looking for pellet stove recommendations for 2000 sq ft cabin off grid solar and back up generator
offgrid
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Why pellets if you are off grid? Not saying it can't be done but to me a woodstove would make more sense. Or even propane
johneh
Minister of Fire
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Awesome, that cabin is much bigger than my house! You can power a resistance electric furnace if you have enough solar and batteries. So your question can not be answered without you first telling us how much power you want to spend on roasting pellets. Other than the goofy gravity pellet stoves, they all require about the same amount of electricity.
They do make non-electric pellet stoves like the one in the link. Past that you would need to do the electric usage math and see what would be possible in your setup.
www.usstove.com
Wiseway GW1949 2,000 Sq Ft EPA Certified Gravity Fed Non-Electric Pellet Stove | US Stove Company
Wiseway non-electric Pellet stove…
www.usstove.com
We have remote cabins also. For the time being, we are connected to the electric grid (have always been - we got the place in the '40's and the previous owners built 2 other buildings and doubled the size of the original cabin - all with electric and plumbing, we added on the big cabin with a master bedroom and modern bathroom then decomissioned propane utilities in the mid '90's, upgraded electric, and went all electric). However, I have been running numbers and dreaming about going off-grid for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is we're the 2nd to the end of the end of the end of the spur of the grid we're on. The power company is absolutely in no hurry to get us back going - we've been out of power over a week at a time, and with rolling blackouts we loose power there usually once every couple weeks for 4-6 hours. For as much as they charge us it really is piss poor. Enough of that though...
If we convert back to propane for the water heater and oven/range that would take care of our "heating" loads that are the bulk of the electrical usage. The vast majority of our overall electrical usage is the water heater I'd say - its always running in-season. If we take out both the water heater and the oven/range loads we're down to about 11kwh per day, just a rough estimate (water heater being up around 5kwh/day, rough estimate).
As far as pellet stoves go - I am very green to them myself. My understanding right now is at start up with the igniters running they can draw a few hundred watts. The unit I inherited is a PelPro PP60-B. Looking through their whole line of pellet stoves they all use a 300w igniter. I can't find other power requirements, however under normal operation the blower fan running constantly would be the main power draw - and I can't imagine it being very much, maybe 15-30w? Of course, the electronics (computer and auger motor) are going to draw some. So maybe regular running wattage 25-50 watts? Then start up add 300 to that for 325-350w? I did read the start up cycle can take as long as 20 minutes. Maybe others with experience with pellet stoves can chime in here - but if a start cycle can take up to 20min and a rough estimate of that combined wattage is around 350w (the high end of my "estimate") - that would be about 117 watt-hours. If you have 1 start up cycle in a day (you are going to clean out the stove and ash collection, right?) that would be 23.6666 hours at 50 watts on the high end, or 1183.3333wh, or 1.1833333kwh. Add the start up at 117wh and you're looking at about 1.3kwh/day.
From the calculations I've done with our potential power usage at our remote property at around 11kwh/day - the addition of a pellet stove in this scenario would account for roughly an extra 10% of anticipated electrical usage.
Depending on how robust your off-grid power system is - that 10% might be small potatoes to you. Or, it could sink the ship.
No matter how you look at off-grid power - one thing you should really consider is how far you can go with no production. If you have combined wind and solar power (I would highly recommend having BOTH - regardless of the area you are in - at times when the sun doesn't shine you can have enough air moving to still get some power, maybe not much but some is better than none) - you should size the system to provide your average power consumption in low production conditions. That will inevitably mean that in peak conditions - when it is bright and sunny out with a 25mph wind, for example - you will have magnitudes more power produced than you could ever use. It is hard to have those production cases and know you can't store it all. But the opposite is the real kicker - if you didn't size the system to your low production periods getting you the power you need then you are going to be going to your back up generator more often than you really should. The idea of your off-grid set up should be to never need to rely on the generator in the first place, unless something catastrophic happens or you have a few generator options available (never rely entirely on one of anything) and you use it to supplement power, such as for running heavier draw tools like air compressors, welders, or large electric motors (table saw, large miter saw).
However, you can get large wattage power inverters that are split phase 120/240v. Sigineer makes one that is 18kw now. Supposedly they rate their inverters to start up loads 3x their rated load - so the 18kw running would get you 54kw starting/intermittent (not sure I would rely on that, but truth be told our home backup generator is 15kw and it runs everything in the house including central AC and the electric clothes dryer without sagging so I presume even the smaller 15kw inverter they make would be plenty for all your off-grid cabin power needs - even the heavy loads!)
Good luck with it all! This is fun stuff. Sorry for the long post. Its something I've been interested in and studied for years.
If we convert back to propane for the water heater and oven/range that would take care of our "heating" loads that are the bulk of the electrical usage. The vast majority of our overall electrical usage is the water heater I'd say - its always running in-season. If we take out both the water heater and the oven/range loads we're down to about 11kwh per day, just a rough estimate (water heater being up around 5kwh/day, rough estimate).
As far as pellet stoves go - I am very green to them myself. My understanding right now is at start up with the igniters running they can draw a few hundred watts. The unit I inherited is a PelPro PP60-B. Looking through their whole line of pellet stoves they all use a 300w igniter. I can't find other power requirements, however under normal operation the blower fan running constantly would be the main power draw - and I can't imagine it being very much, maybe 15-30w? Of course, the electronics (computer and auger motor) are going to draw some. So maybe regular running wattage 25-50 watts? Then start up add 300 to that for 325-350w? I did read the start up cycle can take as long as 20 minutes. Maybe others with experience with pellet stoves can chime in here - but if a start cycle can take up to 20min and a rough estimate of that combined wattage is around 350w (the high end of my "estimate") - that would be about 117 watt-hours. If you have 1 start up cycle in a day (you are going to clean out the stove and ash collection, right?) that would be 23.6666 hours at 50 watts on the high end, or 1183.3333wh, or 1.1833333kwh. Add the start up at 117wh and you're looking at about 1.3kwh/day.
From the calculations I've done with our potential power usage at our remote property at around 11kwh/day - the addition of a pellet stove in this scenario would account for roughly an extra 10% of anticipated electrical usage.
Depending on how robust your off-grid power system is - that 10% might be small potatoes to you. Or, it could sink the ship.
No matter how you look at off-grid power - one thing you should really consider is how far you can go with no production. If you have combined wind and solar power (I would highly recommend having BOTH - regardless of the area you are in - at times when the sun doesn't shine you can have enough air moving to still get some power, maybe not much but some is better than none) - you should size the system to provide your average power consumption in low production conditions. That will inevitably mean that in peak conditions - when it is bright and sunny out with a 25mph wind, for example - you will have magnitudes more power produced than you could ever use. It is hard to have those production cases and know you can't store it all. But the opposite is the real kicker - if you didn't size the system to your low production periods getting you the power you need then you are going to be going to your back up generator more often than you really should. The idea of your off-grid set up should be to never need to rely on the generator in the first place, unless something catastrophic happens or you have a few generator options available (never rely entirely on one of anything) and you use it to supplement power, such as for running heavier draw tools like air compressors, welders, or large electric motors (table saw, large miter saw).
However, you can get large wattage power inverters that are split phase 120/240v. Sigineer makes one that is 18kw now. Supposedly they rate their inverters to start up loads 3x their rated load - so the 18kw running would get you 54kw starting/intermittent (not sure I would rely on that, but truth be told our home backup generator is 15kw and it runs everything in the house including central AC and the electric clothes dryer without sagging so I presume even the smaller 15kw inverter they make would be plenty for all your off-grid cabin power needs - even the heavy loads!)
Good luck with it all! This is fun stuff. Sorry for the long post. Its something I've been interested in and studied for years.
I would have a wood burning stove no cat one you can cook something on and a solar hot water heater plus a movable stand by generator maybe power by LP or something if you have some sort of electricity to your cabin.. And if I thought further I would take a look at those multi fuel type of boiler or furnaces as you get a third job to pay for it all.. Having fun but just wanted to share my ideas too..old mrs clancey
Update:
Here is the tag on the back of my stove. Top right is the electrical specs.
Its hard to read, but starting is 2.6 amps and running is .9 amps, at 120v. That would be 312 watts starting and 108 watts running. Using the same math with the 20 minute ignition period that would come out to 104wh starting/2.556kwh running, or combined 2.66kwh/day. That is double what I roughly estimated earlier - and comes out to 20% of the rough estimate of power usage at our remote property.
I would say 20% more power usage is a pretty good jump up for any off-grid system to contend with. Of course, none of us know your power system numbers so all I am trying to offer here are some numbers that can illustrate how the numbers work in a more real-world scenario. Tune the numbers to yours and I'm sure the % will change. I would be curious, though, how close your power usage comes to the numbers I have estimated, just for comparison's sake.
Fun stuff!
If you can direct vent a pellet stove why couldn't you run a prefab chimney for a woodstove? Or direct vent propane?
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
Or...No vent propane..... While I don't care flor them, no vent propane heaters are pretty popular today.
There are not any no vent propane appliances. There are exterior vented ones and ones vented directly into the house. And most house vented ones say not to be used a a heat source for extended periods of time.
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
I'm going to disagree with you. Propane and NG fired plaque heaters are very popular (at least around here and they do have oxygen depletion sensors that will shut them down, they are not vented to the outside.
I don't want one but they are for sale. One thing they do do is they impart a lot of moisture in the room air as a by product of combustion.
I disagree. In fact Menards, Lowes and TSC sell them Here is a link to the TSC one...Mr. Heater Vent-Free 20,000 BTU Liquid Propane Blue Flame Heater, F299720
I don't want one but they are for sale. One thing they do do is they impart a lot of moisture in the room air as a by product of combustion.
For what it is worth, along with the power study I've worked on in the past, I went down the rabbit hole of propane room heaters for our cabins also. For frame of reference - the 2 heat sources we currently have are the old wood stove and baseboard electric heating, on a thermostat. When family is up there that doesn't want to mess with the wood chore the baseboard radiators are the only heat (yea, high energy consumption and the main cabin is real log construction = poorly insulated). In the in-between seasons when you need to take the chill off the baseboard heaters can do so, but if it goes down to freezing or below it is hard to keep up without the wood stove.
The 2 concerns we have with the propane heaters like the Mr Heater ventless designs are: carbon monoxide and moisture. They supposedly do have low oxygen shut downs. However, there can still be carbon monoxide levels that allow the accumulation of it in people that breathe the air. That doesn't easily, if ever, dissipate.
It would be better to look at vented designs. Just my 2 cents worth.
Yes, there are CO detectors. Do your research on those also - some of them aren't very good quality and readings can be questionable. I'm no expert with them, just that I caution you research and understand the depth of the subject - both the propane heaters vented/non-vented and CO meters/detectors. Don't trust just any yayhoo on Youtube saying "Hey, this works. I didn't die!"
There are also the forgotten vented Kerosene heaters (the newer models run #1 fuel oil) https://www.houseneeds.com/heating/...ser-direct-vented-heaters-oil-diesel-kerosene. They are very efficient and do not require a lot of power.
Did you ever read the manual for one of them?
Just walking into a house heated by a ventless heater tells me everything I need to know about them.
Yeah the co alarm I keep on my tool bag doesn't like houses with ventless heaters at all.
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
No, I have not because I don't ever plan on buying one but you stated: "There are not any no vent propane appliances." and that isn't true.
One of our friends has one in his tack room in his fancy dan horse barn and when I open the door and go in, I can feel the moisture in the air in there.
Besides, the odorant in propane 'methyl mercaptan' I think it's called, the smell of it makes me ill. The main reason we don't own a propane grill and BBQ on chunk charcoal and soon pellets.
Yes there are products sold that are called vent free. But the fact is they are simply vented into the home.
And yes I know lots of people use them but that doesn't mean they are a good idea.
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
Little back story on propane... I happen to hunt with the owner of the local propane company here (no I don't get a cut rate, I'd like to but never have though he usually drives to the hunts and his pickup truck runs on propane....)
Anyway, when he was a young buck, he caught his then girlfriend (not his wife now), cheating on him. The guy she was cheating with had a Corvette and back then the odorant was put in the propane by the delivery driver, today it's put in at the refinery / bulk storage facility. Anyway, my buddy took and put some of the Methyl Mercaptan odorant on the seats of the corvette. he told me the guy had to sell it because it stunk so bad inside and there was no way to get the smell out.
Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord...
Anyway, when he was a young buck, he caught his then girlfriend (not his wife now), cheating on him. The guy she was cheating with had a Corvette and back then the odorant was put in the propane by the delivery driver, today it's put in at the refinery / bulk storage facility. Anyway, my buddy took and put some of the Methyl Mercaptan odorant on the seats of the corvette. he told me the guy had to sell it because it stunk so bad inside and there was no way to get the smell out.
Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord...
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
I agree 100% with that. Never will be any in this house or in my shop for that matter. No kerosene heaters either. They stink too.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Semantics... you agree; combustion products end up either inside the home or outside the home.
A combustion process without a vent is called a bomb... Because combustion does not happen without expansion. (!)
A combustion process without a vent is called a bomb... Because combustion does not happen without expansion. (!)
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
Not agreeing or disagreeing to anything. Just stating what is and what I'd never consider having. Nothing more.
That we call an unplanned rapid deconstruction that may damage surroundings from flying objects.
Though, I agree - all combustion processes give off byproducts. Where do the byproducts go?
That last point brings in to question drafting and venting. That pertains to the OP's question on pellet stoves, as well as all other liquid, solid, or gaseous fuel heaters. Though, lots of systems I am finding (gaseous heaters - like propane/NG "fireplaces" [the "flat screen" kind among others] as well as pellet stoves) have "pressurized exhaust" where the combustion air is drawn in, and exhaust products are expelled out the flue, with the help of a blower fan.
With respect to the latter point above - the pellet stove I have here does just that and because of the "pressurized exhaust" a fully horizontal flue can be implemented, though it is not the best practice. A vertical rise of 4' before and after any horizontal run is recommended because of the draft it creates in the flue. If you lost electricity or the blower fan quit for what ever reason - there would be no "draft" through a horizontal flue. With the addition of the 4' rises the heat going through that pipe would create the draft to pull the exhaust through without the fan.
SidecarFlip
Minister of Fire
Maybe a tiny amount, enough to keep it from smoking up your abode, but not much more. A 3" diameter exhaust pipe even if super hot won't create enough draft to pull anything much. hell, I have a 21 foot vertical rise of 4" and the pull is negligible at best. Won't even extinguish a match held in the bottom of the cleanout tee. You always need the combustion fan to work for you to roast biomass. To think you don't is false, because you do.
Like I said, in a power outage it will (maybe pull the smoke out but not any more) never tested that scenario because I have a diesel standby so when (not if) the power fails, I'm on standby in 45 seconds.
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