Opening that ash-pan door...

[FionaD]

It so happens that a few of the threads I'm following just now mention this practice of opening the ash-pan door and reading them has prompted me to ask-

...Ok... I know we shouldn't do it. I hear loud and clear that it can damage the stove...

But.... Sometimes, if the stove still shows slight signs of life many many hours after the last load, I just know that if I throw in a very few small sticks and open the ash-pan door for literally, like, one minute, I can rescue that fire. I'm talking about just having it open till there's a little red coal again and the kindling produces a flame. Once there's a flame I know I can close the ash-pan door and the primary air will do the rest... No need to keep it open longer than that.

I appreciate there are other potential dangers, like leaving the room, getting distracted etc., and the careful intentions described above can easily go out the window.. But, if we can lay that aside, I guess I just really want to be certain that it would be ok to do just what I've described here...because if even that could damage the stove, then I won't do it any more.

As always, I so appreciate the wealth of experience on this forum!

PS - totally unrelated, but what are 'trophy points'? I can't find any explanation of them anywhere. Just curious.. and pretty sure that there'll be a free cord of wood whenever anyone hits 1000 of them!

 

[toddnic]

Leaving the ash pan door open for one or two minutes won't cause a problem with what you are describing above.....If you forget that the ash pan is open it can overfire your stove as well as cause an explosion when you close the ash pan door due to the build up of wood gases in the stove. Be careful....definitely safer to slightly open the door on your stove.

 

[TheRambler]

Why not just leave the door of the stove cracked open instead? Then you dont even have to wonder if using the ash pan door is a good ir bad idea.

 

[nvanhar]

Funny that you posted this, Fiona. I was intending to post EXACTLY the same thing at some point. Being a follower of the rules, I had read that you should never operate the stove with the ash pan lid open, and therefore never had. But when DH did exactly as you mentioned above in order to start the fire the other day, it gave me pause for thought. It sure does make the process easier and quicker and I too wondered if such a short time open could damage the stove? He won't much listen to me so I figured if people here gave opinions it would make me feel better about the practice.

 

[BobUrban]

No clue what the trophy points are but I do know the ash pan fire starting practice is unsafe for a myriad of reasons. I never use mine unless it is to warm hot dog buns and before I ever had a fire in my stove I cut a new brick to fit the plug hole and just forgot about it entirely.

 

[firefighterjake]

I think the issue is that many times we just plain forget or lose track of the time . . . as Rambler said . . . why worry . . . just leave the side door ajar . . . it may not be as dramatic or quite so fast as the ash pan drawer, but there are little to no chance of damaging the stove (assuming you just don't leave it ajar and then wander off or fall asleep in front of the stove for the next hour or two.)

 

[Kevin Dolan]

It so happens that a few of the threads I'm following just now mention this practice of opening the ash-pan door and reading them has prompted me to ask-

...Ok... I know we shouldn't do it. I hear loud and clear that it can damage the stove...

But.... Sometimes, if the stove still shows slight signs of life many many hours after the last load, I just know that if I throw in a very few small sticks and open the ash-pan door for literally, like, one minute, I can rescue that fire. I'm talking about just having it open till there's a little red coal again and the kindling produces a flame. Once there's a flame I know I can close the ash-pan door and the primary air will do the rest... No need to keep it open longer than that.

I appreciate there are other potential dangers, like leaving the room, getting distracted etc., and the careful intentions described above can easily go out the window.. But, if we can lay that aside, I guess I just really want to be certain that it would be ok to do just what I've described here...because if even that could damage the stove, then I won't do it any more.

As always, I so appreciate the wealth of experience on this forum!

PS - totally unrelated, but what are 'trophy points'? I can't find any explanation of them anywhere. Just curious.. and pretty sure that there'll be a free cord of wood whenever anyone hits 1000 of them!

Fiona if you are at your profile at the top right of the screen and click it it takes you a box that had your own points and a blue highlighted section on trophy points. Kind of like a secret society with different levels of membership based on contribution to the forums, the mystery sourrinding it makes it more interesting. I actually had the same thought as you ,about this.
Kevin

 

[branchburner]

open the ash-pan door for literally, like, one minute,

No problem. Problems can only arise when you fail to take yourself literally. So do not: 1) ever leave the room; 2) ever leave the stove; 3) ever leave your mind (like stoned shepherds/musicians are apt to do).

I have opened the ashpan door for nearly every start up over the past five years. A few times I have spaced it out, but only for an extra minute or so. Still no problems. Even then, the flue/stove temps did not reach nearly the highs they reach in the normal course of temp extremes I see while running this stove.

The blast of air acts as a bellows, intensifying the fire... the most likely damage to occur as a result of running that ashpan bellows for a wee bit too long is a warping of the grate through which the ashes fall. Running that bellows for WAY too long could obviously result in severe damage.

But laying that aside, yes, it would be ok to do just what you've described here.

 

[razerface]

I also start fires this way,,,it is fast! If I leave mine open too long,, a mean vibration and sound starts,,,then the stove will "dance" if you keep going! It is a pretty scary noise if you let it go,,,

 

[FionaD]

Wow thanks everyone for all these replies.

i have tried opening the door instead, but it doesn't seem to increase the burn at all- if anything it slows things down and of course lets cold air in.

I will work on the basis that it's fine if I only do it exactly as I described and am very careful and there's not a stoned shepherd in sight!

I don't do it that often either, it only really occurs about once a week and really does need no less than 30-60 seconds. Don't think I'd be able to bring myself leave the stove whilst doing it.

 

[xman23]

My ash door story, which I told here a while ago. My wife arrived at the cabin and cleaned the ash out, using the ash pan and door. She loaded and lit the cold stove. I assume leaving the side door open. She reloaded and closed the side door. Normally this is a real sluggish burn, as the stove is not hot. She new something was wrong when she heard the water boiling on top of the stove. She closed off the air but it kept getting hotter. Pinned the temp gague. She called the fire dept. Cops, two fire trucks and first aid. I think they thought it was a chimney fire. Luckily they didn't do anything, and it just burned up the wood and cooled down. I was at work, when she told me the story. I had her go look at the ash door. It was open, because she didn't get it latched. There was a pile of ash in back of the pan. Luckily no damage to the stove. Amazing how much and how different the bottom air supply is.


My guess the ash door could be used for a short period of time at startup. But I'm not going use it due to the remote chance I forget it's open.

 

[begreen]

A stove base and grate replacement is a very expensive repair. Get some better kindling instead of using the ash pan door.

 

[WiscWoody]

My ash door story, which I told here a while ago. My wife arrived at the cabin and cleaned the ash out, using the ash pan and door. She loaded and lit the cold stove. I assume leaving the side door open. She reloaded and closed the side door. Normally this is a real sluggish burn, as the stove is not hot. She new something was wrong when she heard the water boiling on top of the stove. She closed off the air but it kept getting hotter. Pinned the temp gague. She called the fire dept. Cops, two fire trucks and first aid. I think they thought it was a chimney fire. Luckily they didn't do anything, and it just burned up the wood and cooled down. I was at work, when she told me the story. I had her go look at the ash door. It was open, because she didn't get it latched. There was a pile of ash in back of the pan. Luckily no damage to the stove. Amazing how much and how different the bottom air supply is.


My guess the ash door could be used for a short period of time at startup. But I'm not going use it due to the remote chance I forget it's open.

I had tha same thing happen the first season I used my stove. I use my wood tongs to take the small plug off and and back on and I didn't get it seated and covered with ash so the fire I built with dry pallet wood of course took off and I'm sure the double wall and class A either had a fire or just got so hot that smoke was coming out of the seams and the gauge was pegged and the smoke alarms were all going off! That first season sure can be hard on a stove...

 

[Ski-Patroller]

I confess to using the ash door to get our Castine going, or to bring it back from almost dead coals. I often close it but do not latch it when I want the fire to take off. Just a little extra air though the bottom makes a huge difference. Opening the main door is not as effective since it puts more air in, but in the wrong place. I do watch to see that it looks like a wood stove, not a forge. We pay a lot of attention to the stove temp, and I have an infrared thermometer as well as an electronic draft gauge.

 

[FionaD]

I confess to using the ash door to get our Castine going, or to bring it back from almost dead coals. I often close it but do not latch it when I want the fire to take off. Just a little extra air though the bottom makes a huge difference. Opening the main door is not as effective since it puts more air in, but in the wrong place. I do watch to see that it looks like a wood stove, not a forge. We pay a lot of attention to the stove temp, and I have an infrared thermometer as well as an electronic draft gauge.

Interesting that you have a similar experience of how opening the door of your Jotul doesn't really help to bring it to life. I have also found that, on the mercifully few times my stove has headed into too-high temps for longer than I feel comfortable, that opening the door always cools things down rapidly and never feeds the flames into greater fury... Which is good! I guess all stoves work different in this respect.

Whenever I tend the stove in any way, I'm always down on my knees (yes... I worship my stove! ) so my habit, which I hope I will never lose, is to check before I get up off my knees that the two air supplies are exactly as I want them to be - and that the doors are latched tight closed. I basically never get off my knees whilst any stove door is open.

I am hearing the notes of caution from others here though... And am taking them in too.

 

[TheRambler]

You only open the door a crack, or even closed but not latched. Wide open wont assist until you have actual flames. Using the ash pan is a bad idea, figure out how to start your fires another way if need be, its not that hard...

For those fires that have just a few coals left but not really enough to light off a fresh load i use my magic arrow shaft. Use an arrow shaft, aka big straw to blow and focus air on a specific spot to get it to ignite.

 

[branchburner]

I confess to using the ash door ...I often close it but do not latch it when I want the fire to take off.

For myself, to close it but not latch it increases the remote likelihood I might space it out and forget it's ajar... I swing mine wide open, so that I'd trip over it if I was to leave the stove. That gives me maximum effect, in minimum time, with virtually no chance of ignoring/forgetting the blast furnace I'm creating.

 

[branchburner]

Use an arrow shaft, aka big straw to blow and focus air on a specific spot to get it to ignite.

With the ash pan door open, I also focus air on a specific spot: the firebox.

 

[Nick Mystic]

People who use the logic that it is okay open their ash pan doors to help establish a fire because they have done it for years and never had a problem because they are very careful remind me of people who justify driving over the speed limit because they are good drivers and know where to draw the limit (never more that 80, never more than 85, etc.). Or people who justify drinking and driving by saying they do it all the time and have never yet had a serious accident. Their experience might be accurately reported, but what it doesn't address is the fact that all these behaviors, over time, will increase the probability of a bad outcome. In each instance it makes more sense to just do the proper thing and keep your risks as low as possible, in my opinion. If you take some time to learn how to build a fire from a cold start there is no need to use an ash pan door to get the fire burning.

 

[Jags]

And if any of you ash pan door using folks ever experience a flashback in the nature that I have you will be on this site preaching "don't use the ash pan door for startup" - just like I do.

It only takes once.

 

[nvanhar]

And if any of you ash pan door using folks ever experience a flashback in the nature that I have...

Can you describe what happened?

 

[Jags]

Can you describe what happened?

Yep - BOOM!

A more descriptive answer:
Fresh fuel load
Opened ash pan door for a quick start up
Got distracted no more than 10FT from the stove.
heard rumbling as stove got crazy in just a couple of short minutes.
Clamped ash pan door shut, slammed primary air shut (stove was getting hot)
Monitored stove temps (still hot) but TONS of smoke in the box (heavy off gassing).
Then BOOM! I obviously starved the blazing fire of enough oxygen to continue burning at the rate it had been. The off gassing continued after this starvation. When enough oxygen was drawn in to the stove to allow for the gasses to combust - it did - with a bunch of energy behind it.

For a second I thought I was gonna need to retrieve my living room installed stove from the basement. It was so violent that I scurried into the crawl space above my ceiling to confirm that all the pipe was still joined properly. Thank gawd for 3 screws in every joint.

DON'T DO IT FOLKS.

 

[branchburner]

.... remind me of people who justify driving over the speed limit or people who justify drinking and driving by saying they do it all the time and have never yet had a serious accident.

You are ignoring the fact that these behaviors are inherently dangerous when taken to extreme degrees. Opening an ashpan door is not... forgetting to close it would be like forgetting to take your foot off the gas pedal. If you are prone to forgetting that, you probably shouldn't be driving. So your analogy is flawed. How dangerous is having half a beer before driving, or going 5 MPH over the speed limit?

You might observe, next time you are on the highway, that virtually EVERY driver is exceeding the posted speed limit to some degree. And 90% of those drivers are following too closely. Going slower and leaving more room would reduce the odds of an accident, but staying home would reduce it even more.

By extending your logic, we should not be using wood at all. Do you not know that using a wood stove or fireplace will increase the probability of a bad outcome? Actuaries know this. If it makes more sense to just keep your risks as low as possible, then choose a mode of heating that results in fewer house fires. Isn't that what insurance companies keep telling us?

Nobody ever said there is a need to use an ash pan door to get the fire burning, and nobody has advised doing so. Like eating a doughnut (or three), it's a calculated risk. Of course it's a bad idea. So what? The OP acknowledged that right off the bat. The question was, IF the ashpan door is open for ONLY one minute and you do not leave the stove, what are the chances of damaging the stove? They are zero. Gotta like those odds.

 

[jotulguy]

I have seen this mentality cost many a homeowner a pile of money. In fact the worst time to open the ashpan door is when the stove is on the cooler side. The reason, cast iron is fluid always expanding and contracting. If one spot gets exponentially hotter then another....crack! That's when it gets expensive. Why not do as mentioned earlier in this post and simply learn to build a better fire or get better fuel. Better safe then sorry. Just my 2 cents.

 

[branchburner]

Clamped ash pan door shut, slammed primary air shut

First mistake was leaving door open, second was shutting air. No BOOM without both.

I agree with Jags... you get better outcomes when you don't make mistakes. There is no doubt that in opening the ash door you are setting yourself up for an easy mistake. But it is not itself the mistake, only the invitation to making one.