Pacific Energy Summit air control problem

[chopchop]

Anyone run into this problem with PE?
This stove is a summit model with the pedestal base and ash pan.

The problem I am having is when I have an established fire, whether with or without a coal bed, and I add fresh wood and then shut down the air control. The fire will smolder for a while but will then begin to draw air enough to allow for the fresh wood to light. The wood will continue to burn and the stove temperature will continue to rise significantly often going from the initial setting of around 400 degrees up to as much as 700 degrees. This is occurring even though the air control is closed.
There is a trap door in the stove to allow for ash disposal into the pedestal base ash bucket. I am very careful to see that this door closes fully after use and I cover it with ash, I don't believe my problem is with an air leak there.
The stove is new this year. It replaces my VC Defiant Encore which saw many years of use. I reduced my existing 8" pipe to adapt to the 6" stove collar and installed a damper in the pipe just above the reducer. The modifications were OK'd by my dealer.
Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[Dantheman300z]

I have the same stove and the same issue. I do not use the ash trap door but scoop it out. When you take the ash tray out and look at the air inlet you will see that the air control stop is a welded piece of metal, I figured that even with the air turned all the way down that too much air was getting in. So as I read in other posts, I took a magnet and covered some of the inlet up. That way to limit the amount of air and not actually modify the stove. Maybe this will help you as well.

 

[chopchop]

I have the same stove and the same issue. I do not use the ash trap door but scoop it out. When you take the ash tray out and look at the air inlet you will see that the air control stop is a welded piece of metal, I figured that even with the air turned all the way down that too much air was getting in. So as I read in other posts, I took a magnet and covered some of the inlet up. That way to limit the amount of air and not actually modify the stove. Maybe this will help you as well.

Thanks for your input. I was aware of the air inlet and wondered what their reasoning was for building it this way. Seems like I shouldn't have to modify a new stove but I guess I will if I have to. I notice that the ash dump sliding plate doesn't seal well but the amount of air it lets in seems small compared to the air let in by the "closed" air control lever. I pack ash into the well of the ash dump opening and leave ash on the entire floor of the stove, seems like it would be an adequate seal.

 

[madison]

If it is leaking at the ash chute, you will see an almost white hot nuclear glow generally around that area, though the slots between the firebricks can distribute that air. I would also suggest letting the stove cool, remove all the firebricks on the floor of the stove, and look for loose bolts possible for the the EBT or ash chute. I had two bolts not tightened, (same mfg, different model)

If it is the ash chute. By packing the ash, you maybe slightly causing a gap, it does not take much. I would clean it out completely when the stove is cool, work the flapper actuator a couple times until you get what looks like the best seal. Then do not touch it again or force ash into the ash chute. I do not know of anyone on this forum that uses the chute. I tried to use it three times when I first got the stove, and realized it is extremely messy, difficult to use, and can lead to ash chute air leaks -- So I switched to a kol keeper shovel and a regular ash shovel and 5 gal can with lid.

Otherwise, investigate sealing with high temp gasket cement (black). OR possible foil seal from the outside above the ashpan?? If you decide not to use the ash chute.

 

[begreen]

This sounds like less of an issue and more of an observation of the burn cycle. Non-cat secondary combustion stove typically will swing in temperature. They are designed to not smolder the wood so a certain amount of air is allowed to enter the firebox even with the air control at its lowest setting. The full load of wood on hot coals is going to release a large amount of wood gases and smoke as the charge warms up. This needs to be burned off. As it is, the stove warms up significantly. I suggest that the air control not be closed immediately on a reload but instead left open for a few minutes until the wood starts to burn well, then close it down but not to the point of smoldering the wood. Smoldering is wasting heat, polluting and can add to creosote accumulation.

Is this a new Summit stove? For a little less vigorous burn instead try using metal tape to temporarily block off the boost air intake which should be a small hole at the front and center of the stove. If that makes a nice difference then leave the block there. Our boost manifold has been blocked off for 7 out of 8 seasons the stove has run. The wood we burn is dry enough to not need it. If you have a tall chimney this may be worth trying. If the chimney is short and the wood not quite seasoned then blocking it off may be detrimental.

 

[Squisher]

Anyone run into this problem with PE?
This stove is a summit model with the pedestal base and ash pan.

The problem I am having is when I have an established fire, whether with or without a coal bed, and I add fresh wood and then shut down the air control. The fire will smolder for a while but will then begin to draw air enough to allow for the fresh wood to light. The wood will continue to burn and the stove temperature will continue to rise significantly often going from the initial setting of around 400 degrees up to as much as 700 degrees. This is occurring even though the air control is closed.
There is a trap door in the stove to allow for ash disposal into the pedestal base ash bucket. I am very careful to see that this door closes fully after use and I cover it with ash, I don't believe my problem is with an air leak there.
The stove is new this year. It replaces my VC Defiant Encore which saw many years of use. I reduced my existing 8" pipe to adapt to the 6" stove collar and installed a damper in the pipe just above the reducer. The modifications were OK'd by my dealer.
Thanks for any suggestions.

Just to be clear, so when you add fresh wood you are immediately turning the air down? Or are you turning the air up when you add fresh wood and then cutting the air back once temps have come up and the wood is charred/off gassed? Whenever I add a fresh load of wood I go through a cycle of cranking the air wide open, getting the heat up and pumping and then cutting the air back. If I added a fresh load and left my air right closed my stove would smolder for a loooong time. I have no ash drawer at all so I know mine isn't leaking. Also have you checked your door gasket for leaks, even new they can leak.

This is my first year burning on my summit and my stove cruises at 500-600 at usually about 1/4" of air open. If I cut my air back right closed sometimes the stove will fall off of those temps and if I crank it open much more than that I can push into 700+territory. These are stovetop temps with a magnetic thermometer.

My stove is unmodified. And I'm burning mostly well seasoned fir, a bit of spruce, birch, maple, and pine are burned at times but mostly I stick to the fir.

 

[begreen]

You're doing well Squisher. Results are going to vary a bit with the draft, the chimney, the wood species, wood thickness, outside temps, stove location, firebox packing and the operator. I rarely get the exact same results from fire to fire. There are just too many variables.

 

[Squisher]

Very true. The size of the fire makes a big difference in temps I find. A small fire is pretty hard to over fire in my set-up but packing the box chock a block full for cold temps or extended burn times requires a little more vigilance to stay in the safe zones.

And as you say species too. Big difference in my stove output say compared with spruce vs maple.

 

[chopchop]

If it is leaking at the ash chute, you will see an almost white hot nuclear glow generally around that area, though the slots between the firebricks can distribute that air. I would also suggest letting the stove cool, remove all the firebricks on the floor of the stove, and look for loose bolts possible for the the EBT or ash chute. I had two bolts not tightened, (same mfg, different model)

If it is the ash chute. By packing the ash, you maybe slightly causing a gap, it does not take much. I would clean it out completely when the stove is cool, work the flapper actuator a couple times until you get what looks like the best seal. Then do not touch it again or force ash into the ash chute. I do not know of anyone on this forum that uses the chute. I tried to use it three times when I first got the stove, and realized it is extremely messy, difficult to use, and can lead to ash chute air leaks -- So I switched to a kol keeper shovel and a regular ash shovel and 5 gal can with lid.

Otherwise, investigate sealing with high temp gasket cement (black). OR possible foil seal from the outside above the ashpan?? If you decide not to use the ash chute.

The ash chute door doesn't seal tight even when the stove is completely clean in that area. It's just not designed to create a tight seal. It will leak if not plugged with ash, or as you say, permanently sealed. The small amount that it would leak seems minor compared to the amount of air coming in through the "closed" air control. I like the idea of the chute, and if possible would like to keep it functional. If it turns out to be the culprit I guess it will have to go. Thanks for the advice.

 

[chopchop]

This sounds like less of an issue and more of an observation of the burn cycle. Non-cat secondary combustion stove typically will swing in temperature. They are designed to not smolder the wood so a certain amount of air is allowed to enter the firebox even with the air control at its lowest setting. The full load of wood on hot coals is going to release a large amount of wood gases and smoke as the charge warms up. This needs to be burned off. As it is, the stove warms up significantly. I suggest that the air control not be closed immediately on a reload but instead left open for a few minutes until the wood starts to burn well, then close it down but not to the point of smoldering the wood. Smoldering is wasting heat, polluting and can add to creosote accumulation.

Is this a new Summit stove? For a little less vigorous burn instead try using metal tape to temporarily block off the boost air intake which should be a small hole at the front and center of the stove. If that makes a nice difference then leave the block there. Our boost manifold has been blocked off for 7 out of 8 seasons the stove has run. The wood we burn is dry enough to not need it. If you have a tall chimney this may be worth trying. If the chimney is short and the wood not quite seasoned then blocking it off may be detrimental.

I have tried allowing the stove to burn hot and establish a good bed of coals then add fresh wood, allow to burn a few minutes and then shut it down. I have also added wood to coals and shut it down immediately. Either way the problem is the same. The wood will smolder briefly and then ignite and burn hot. In both cases I shut the air control all the way down after adding the fresh wood, although sometimes the air is already down.
The stove is new and I'm used to an old cat stove, VC defiant encore.
This is a pedestal stove, I wonder if the boost air hole is in the same location as you mention. The only hole I'm aware of is the air control which is about an inch and a half in diameter and visible under the stove after removing the ash pan. The boost air cover plate is directly above it in the fire box. Is the hole you refer to in the firebox, under the boost air cover plate?
The wood I burn is stored under cover and very well seasoned, mostly high quality hardwood. And yes the chimney is tall.

 

[chopchop]

Just to be clear, so when you add fresh wood you are immediately turning the air down? Or are you turning the air up when you add fresh wood and then cutting the air back once temps have come up and the wood is charred/off gassed? Whenever I add a fresh load of wood I go through a cycle of cranking the air wide open, getting the heat up and pumping and then cutting the air back. If I added a fresh load and left my air right closed my stove would smolder for a loooong time. I have no ash drawer at all so I know mine isn't leaking. Also have you checked your door gasket for leaks, even new they can leak.

This is my first year burning on my summit and my stove cruises at 500-600 at usually about 1/4" of air open. If I cut my air back right closed sometimes the stove will fall off of those temps and if I crank it open much more than that I can push into 700+territory. These are stovetop temps with a magnetic thermometer.

My stove is unmodified. And I'm burning mostly well seasoned fir, a bit of spruce, birch, maple, and pine are burned at times but mostly I stick to the fir.

The problem seems to occur regardless of whether or not I allow the wood to char. If I have a large coal bed I will add fresh wood but not open the air much. If I open the air after adding fresh wood on a hot bed of coals, the stove gets very hot very quickly. The only time I add fresh wood, open the air fully and allow it to burn hot for awhile is in the morning or when I get home from work. This is after an extended slow burn. At night I like to load it and turn it down, by then the house is plenty warm but I want coals for the morning.

 

[begreen]

I have tried allowing the stove to burn hot and establish a good bed of coals then add fresh wood, allow to burn a few minutes and then shut it down. I have also added wood to coals and shut it down immediately. Either way the problem is the same. The wood will smolder briefly and then ignite and burn hot. In both cases I shut the air control all the way down after adding the fresh wood, although sometimes the air is already down.
The stove is new and I'm used to an old cat stove, VC defiant encore.
This is a pedestal stove, I wonder if the boost air hole is in the same location as you mention. The only hole I'm aware of is the air control which is about an inch and a half in diameter and visible under the stove after removing the ash pan. The boost air cover plate is directly above it in the fire box. Is the hole you refer to in the firebox, under the boost air cover plate?
The wood I burn is stored under cover and very well seasoned, mostly high quality hardwood. And yes the chimney is tall.

The boost air hole should be to the left of the the air control hole. It will be much smaller.

 

[Squisher]

The problem seems to occur regardless of whether or not I allow the wood to char. If I have a large coal bed I will add fresh wood but not open the air much. If I open the air after adding fresh wood on a hot bed of coals, the stove gets very hot very quickly. The only time I add fresh wood, open the air fully and allow it to burn hot for awhile is in the morning or when I get home from work. This is after an extended slow burn. At night I like to load it and turn it down, by then the house is plenty warm but I want coals for the morning.

I see. I mostly avoid hot reloads. I find it eats wood up. I'll crank the air up on the coals to burn them down while still getting useful heat.

Have you checked your door for leaks? Does your glass stay really clean or any consistent dirty area?

 

[chopchop]

The boost air hole should be to the left of the the air control hole. It will be much smaller.

I found it now - really had to get in under there to see it! Thanks, I'll try your solution.

 

[chopchop]

I see. I mostly avoid hot reloads. I find it eats wood up. I'll crank the air up on the coals to burn them down while still getting useful heat.

Have you checked your door for leaks? Does your glass stay really clean or any consistent dirty area?

I haven't checked for leaks, I'll do that next time I let it cool down. The glass is clean when burning hot and a bit sooty on the sides / clean in the center after a long slow burn.

 

[chopchop]

Thanks for the great response from everyone! I'll be trying many of your suggestions. If/when I figure it out I'll check back.

 

[LowbanksArcher]

Any update on this? I just had a summit classic installed 2 weeks ago with a new chimney. 16' of straight chimney through the middle of the house. No elbows at all. I can't get this thing to slow down. Throw 3 quarter rounds of maple in on hot coals and I'm over 800 degrees on the stove top. I've foil taped the hole opening left by the air control, put a magnet over the boost air hole, and bolted my knockout plate back on the back of the stove. I'm thinking about putting a damper in the flue next if I can't get this thing under control.

 

[thechimneysweep]

It seems what you might be observing is PE's EBT mechanism doing its job. When the fresh load reaches about 500 degrees, which can happen quite rapidly when there are lots of hot coals, the wood resins start to gasify (this is the beginning of Stage 2 of the burn). To burn off these gases, extra air is needed in the secondary burn area. The EBT opens up to supply that air, resulting in a very showy flame display and rapid increase in stove temperature until the excess gases are consumed. At that point, the EBT closes back down, and the fire calms down for the duration of the burn.

Next time you add a fresh load, try waiting until the coals have died down. This creates a more gradual "bloom" of volatile gases, and a prolonged and less violent Stage 2 of your burn. You can read more on our website at (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm).

 

[begreen]

Agreed it sounds like the coals need to be burned down a bit. Throwing splits on a hot coal bed will cause them to outgas strongly. To burn down the coal bed open up the air control and put a couple small 2-3" split on top. Let them burn down along with the coal bed for ~30 minutes before reloading. Also, turn down the air as soon as the fresh load of wood starts burning well.

Do you have a blower on this stove? If yes, are these temps with the blower running?

 

[chopchop]

Any update on this? I just had a summit classic installed 2 weeks ago with a new chimney. 16' of straight chimney through the middle of the house. No elbows at all. I can't get this thing to slow down. Throw 3 quarter rounds of maple in on hot coals and I'm over 800 degrees on the stove top. I've foil taped the hole opening left by the air control, put a magnet over the boost air hole, and bolted my knockout plate back on the back of the stove. I'm thinking about putting a damper in the flue next if I can't get this thing under control.

What finally worked for me was allowing the air control to shut completely. I cut a notch in the adjustable control where it contacts the tab welded to the bottom of the stove. Now I can turn it right down to nothing if I choose to, although just leaving it mostly closed does the trick if the fire gets to hot. The one thing you don't mention is the EBT2 air control. To test that it is operating properly, open and shut the door quickly and gently. You will hear a metal clink from the back of the stove. If you don't hear anything, your EBT2 may be stuck open. It's a simple piece of sheet metal that pivots to allow air in or shut it off depending on vacuum present in the chimney. You can view it with a flash light looking under the stove from the front of the stove toward the back center with the ash pan removed.

 

[Woody Stover]

try waiting until the coals have died down.

Also experiment with moving the coals around if you have to load on a bigger coal bed. Maybe shove some to the back if you have room, or pull them to the center and put bigger splits next to the coals on either side, with no coals underneath them, to slow down the gassing. Then just toss a couple smaller splits on the coals to kick it off, but hopefully the rest of the load won't be gassing until a bit later in the burn. I experimented a bit with this type of coal management when running the Buck 91, and it worked.

 

[LowbanksArcher]

I really appreciate the advise guys. An update. Stove is behaving entirely differently since the day I posted. I think I'm learning the drastic changes that the weather/wind has on my draft. Loaded the stove an hour ago on a 2" bed of coals. Secondary burn within 10 mins and shut er down. Now she's settled in at 500 degrees. I still have the boost air hole and sliver of main air gap covered with foil tape.
I will say. Some of the wood i'm burning is über dry and some punky pieces mixed in. A lot of very small split stuff. (I had intended to sell it for camp firewood for the local campgrounds). I'll be more careful to burn down my coal bed, and try some of the ideas suggested. Just hate waiting for coals to burn down with my propane furnace running and the stove not putting out heat. Nature of the beast I guess. Cheers

 

[begreen]

With some larger splits, good dry wood and a bit more experience you should be able to have the stove cruise at 650 or 700F (blower off). 500F with blower on isn't bad though.

 

[LowbanksArcher]

I'm experimenting right now with a full load East-West. Seems this slows it down too. Instead of flames burning between the whole pile front to back, it's essentially 1 log at a time. Thoughts?

 

[begreen]

Did you get some larger splits of wood? If yes, how large?

With the extreme cold weather you are experiencing, draft is probably quite strong. You may need to reduce draft and/or air going to the fire. I would start by blocking off the boost air port with a magnet and consider putting in a key damper into the flue pipe. But that may not cure the issue if the splits are more like kindling size.