Pacific Energy Summit Insert Question

[kinetic711]

Hello. I have been lurking for a while, reading as much as I can. Thank you to everyone for sharing so much information openly.
Well, I am thinking about replacing my 32 year old Elmira Stoveworks insert with a PE Summit insert. I have read a lot of posts about this unit. I have read about the 12 hour burn times and cruising temps of 600F-650F. My question is, during a 12 hour burn, how many hours will the Summit insert maintain 600F-650F? How about 500F-600F? How about 400F-500F? I know it depends on many things. I am asking for your own personal experience. Thanks.

 

[rwhite]

No experience on the summit but I can relate my experience on an 1.8 cuft insert using dry lodgepole and doug fir.
0-1/2 hour start and get up to temp 5-600
Maybe 5 hours cruising at that temp as long as the splits aren't to small
2-3 hours gradually reducing temp
Usually by 7-8 hours I have a good enough coals for a restart.
So the summit being almost twice the size of mine should have no trouble at least getting to the 10 hour range. Also what I do to get extended burn times from a cold start (when I get home from work) is use smaller splits and build a smaller fire so I get a 3-4 hour burn. That way I get to temp faster, build a decent coal bed and can load some bigger splits on before bed. I can normally have good enough coals to restart and the stove is still around 200 when I wake up. If I get any hardwood it gets saved for the night time burns.

 

[madison]

I am sure once Begreen responds, you will get some nice data. He posted some nice graphs with stove and flue temperatures with his T6 a few yrs ago. I just did a quick search and could not locate those posts.

Roughly, in my experience, with my T6 (same firebox). With a full load of locust, I will get a few hours in the 600 range, and over the next 6 hrs it will trend down to 300-400 over 6-8 hrs. This is with my stove blower/fan running. Add 100-200 with the blower off. And extend the time an hour or so with blower off. 12 hr burns maybe possible, meaning you maybe able to relight the stove without a firestarter and kindling, but heat production is not sufficient in our home after ~ 8 hrs.

There is learning curve to timing reloads, split size etc. I went through twice as much wood the first few yrs as I currently use. We would wake up sweating in the middle of the night because I jammed the stove full at 11 PM. After adding the blower to our freestanding stove and learning to anticipate the weather etc, I am a lot better at maintaining a comfortable home and use a lot less wood.

Your home's location, size, design, air tightness, stove location and installation, wood type and wood dryness, exterior weather conditions (temp and wind) etc will play a big role in how many hours of effective heating you will get out of your setup. So as you read some of the posts in this helpful forum, you will see a wide variety of "personal experiences" with various stoves due to all of the above.

 

[kinetic711]

No experience on the summit but I can relate my experience on an 1.8 cuft insert using dry lodgepole and doug fir.
0-1/2 hour start and get up to temp 5-600
Maybe 5 hours cruising at that temp as long as the splits aren't to small
2-3 hours gradually reducing temp
Usually by 7-8 hours I have a good enough coals for a restart.
So the summit being almost twice the size of mine should have no trouble at least getting to the 10 hour range. Also what I do to get extended burn times from a cold start (when I get home from work) is use smaller splits and build a smaller fire so I get a 3-4 hour burn. That way I get to temp faster, build a decent coal bed and can load some bigger splits on before bed. I can normally have good enough coals to restart and the stove is still around 200 when I wake up. If I get any hardwood it gets saved for the night time burns.

Thank you for your reply, that is what I wanted to hear. I burn mostly hard maple, red oak and yellow birch during the winter. I don't have a problem with temperature, it is the short burn times that are becoming a nuisance. This is the reason I am looking at the PE Summit.

 

[kinetic711]

I am sure once Begreen responds, you will get some nice data. He posted some nice graphs with stove and flue temperatures with his T6 a few yrs ago. I just did a quick search and could not locate those posts.

Roughly, in my experience, with my T6 (same firebox). With a full load of locust, I will get a few hours in the 600 range, and over the next 6 hrs it will trend down to 300-400 over 6-8 hrs. This is with my stove blower/fan running. Add 100-200 with the blower off. And extend the time an hour or so with blower off. 12 hr burns maybe possible, meaning you maybe able to relight the stove without a firestarter and kindling, but heat production is not sufficient in our home after ~ 8 hrs.

There is learning curve to timing reloads, split size etc. I went through twice as much wood the first few yrs as I currently use. We would wake up sweating in the middle of the night because I jammed the stove full at 11 PM. After adding the blower to our freestanding stove and learning to anticipate the weather etc, I am a lot better at maintaining a comfortable home and use a lot less wood.

Your home's location, size, design, air tightness, stove location and installation, wood type and wood dryness, exterior weather conditions (temp and wind) etc will play a big role in how many hours of effective heating you will get out of your setup. So as you read some of the posts in this helpful forum, you will see a wide variety of "personal experiences" with various stoves due to all of the above.

Thank you for your post, very informative. I'm looking forward to seeing some graphs and I am hoping Hogwildz post to this thread, as I have read alot of his past posts and have a similar setup. My house is a 2500sqft side-split, very open on both levels, and no basement. Our winter average temps are between 10F to -25F, sometimes a bit colder. I really want an insert that gives me more hours burning at that +- 600F temperature.

 

[begreen]

The number of hours at a high stove temp are going to depend mostly on the fuel, the operator and the rate of heat loss of the house. The results we get with our T6 are tailored to our climate, fuel and heat loss. NE Ontario is a very different climate and 2600 sq ft is more area. Unless the stove is catalytic, the temperature will be cyclical. In our stove, burning locust the temp will stay above 600F for a few hours usually, but the glidepath down to say 400F is slow and over 4-5 more hours due to the intense heat in locust coals. I would not get the same curve from doug fir which we commonly burn. One could restoke the stove when it drops below 600F but that is going to eventually lead to serious coals building up.

If this is not enough heat for the house it could be that the btus losses are too high or that the cubic footage is a confounding factor. Cathedral ceilings often double the cubic ftg being heated. In that case a second stove may be needed to supplement heat for very cold days.

 

[kinetic711]

The number of hours at a high stove temp are going to depend mostly on the fuel, the operator and the rate of heat loss of the house. The results we get with our T6 are tailored to our climate, fuel and heat loss. NE Ontario is a very different climate and 2600 sq ft is more area. Unless the stove is catalytic, the temperature will be cyclical. In our stove, burning locust the temp will stay above 600F for a few hours usually, but the glidepath down to say 400F is slow and over 4-5 more hours due to the intense heat in locust coals. I would not get the same curve from doug fir which we commonly burn. One could restoke the stove when it drops below 600F but that is going to eventually lead to serious coals building up.

If this is not enough heat for the house it could be that the btus losses are too high or that the cubic footage is a confounding factor. Cathedral ceilings often double the cubic ftg being heated. In that case a second stove may be needed to supplement heat for very cold days.

I burn mostly hard maple, which has a little more BTU's/cord than locust. My house is pretty well insulated, so I'm guessing I should experience similar temperatures vs time, and maybe a bit higher on both.

 

[begreen]

Hard maple is good. One can can get a locust fire up to 700F stovetop temp pretty easily by not turning down the fire sooner, but that is at a sacrifice to burn time. This winter has been mild so I find myself closing down the air earlier and going for the longer burn time.

 

[westkywood]

I've got a Summit (pedestal). I'll log some time and temp data and post it. Currently I'm burning 4 year seasoned Red Oak. With this dry wood it loves to cruise at 600-700.

 

[kinetic711]

I've got a Summit (pedestal). I'll log some time and temp data and post it. Currently I'm burning 4 year seasoned Red Oak. With this dry wood it loves to cruise at 600-700.

I'm looking forward to your next post!

 

[westkywood]

Ok, I've got some temp readings for you. There are so many variables between different setups with the same stove. I'm not really sure this is going to tell you much. Mileage WILL vary...First I loaded the stove about 1/3 full. Average temp outside was 23. I took a pic of the wood before loading. The Oak has been seasoned 4 years and the Maple 2 years. Here's what I got: When the stove got going and I shut it down( all the way) temp was 525. This was at 7:00pm... 7:30pm temp was 590... 8:00pm- 665... 8:30pm- 580.. 9:00pm- 435... 10:00pm- 330...Keep in mind, one split was Maple that burns up pretty fast. These were pretty small splits and only filled the stove about 1/3..During the time I am here and awake I usually build smaller fires. I never load the stove all the way unless I'm going to bed or going to be gone all day.
So later that night it got down to a balmy 11 degrees with about 10mph winds. Winds make a huge difference in this old house. As far as heating, I'd rather it be 20 outside than it be 30 with a strong wind. So I loaded the stove with 4 year seasoned Oak. Crammed it full of large splits. Sometimes on really cold nights, I sleep in the living room because its easier to get up and tend to the stove real early in the morning. So I shut the stove down at midnight and the stove top temp was 535. Because of the really cold temps outside my stove was drawing like nobody's business. At 2:30 I woke up sweating like a big dog and the temp was 835. That's higher than I like it to be for sure With those temps outside I should have put a couple splits of 2 year Oak in there to slow it down. So at 6:45am the stove top temp was 315. So I got almost 7 hours before reloading.
Now, last night. I'd say this is more of the typical burn cycle.. The average temp outside was 32.. At 10:30pm the stove was 350 and I loaded it up with large splits (4 yr Oak). Closed it down at 10:45 with a temp reading of 550.. At 8:45 this morning the temp was 300. The picture I posted of the coals was taken this morning. A nice large bed of coals after about 10 hours.
There is probably very little value in doing this as far as you deciding on a stove. The variables are many. I'm sure the Summit is right up there with the most efficient wood stoves out there.

 

[kinetic711]

Ok, I've got some temp readings for you. There are so many variables between different setups with the same stove. I'm not really sure this is going to tell you much. Mileage WILL vary...First I loaded the stove about 1/3 full. Average temp outside was 23. I took a pic of the wood before loading. The Oak has been seasoned 4 years and the Maple 2 years. Here's what I got: When the stove got going and I shut it down( all the way) temp was 525. This was at 7:00pm... 7:30pm temp was 590... 8:00pm- 665... 8:30pm- 580.. 9:00pm- 435... 10:00pm- 330...Keep in mind, one split was Maple that burns up pretty fast. These were pretty small splits and only filled the stove about 1/3..During the time I am here and awake I usually build smaller fires. I never load the stove all the way unless I'm going to bed or going to be gone all day.
So later that night it got down to a balmy 11 degrees with about 10mph winds. Winds make a huge difference in this old house. As far as heating, I'd rather it be 20 outside than it be 30 with a strong wind. So I loaded the stove with 4 year seasoned Oak. Crammed it full of large splits. Sometimes on really cold nights, I sleep in the living room because its easier to get up and tend to the stove real early in the morning. So I shut the stove down at midnight and the stove top temp was 535. Because of the really cold temps outside my stove was drawing like nobody's business. At 2:30 I woke up sweating like a big dog and the temp was 835. That's higher than I like it to be for sure With those temps outside I should have put a couple splits of 2 year Oak in there to slow it down. So at 6:45am the stove top temp was 315. So I got almost 7 hours before reloading.
Now, last night. I'd say this is more of the typical burn cycle.. The average temp outside was 32.. At 10:30pm the stove was 350 and I loaded it up with large splits (4 yr Oak). Closed it down at 10:45 with a temp reading of 550.. At 8:45 this morning the temp was 300. The picture I posted of the coals was taken this morning. A nice large bed of coals after about 10 hours.
There is probably very little value in doing this as far as you deciding on a stove. The variables are many. I'm sure the Summit is right up there with the most efficient wood stoves out there.

Thank you for the real-time data; it is exactly what I was looking for. How many sqft are you heating and what is the layout?

 

[begreen]

I am closing the stove down earlier and going by stack temps (probe) not stove top temps. If I let the stovetop reach 550F before turning down the air the flue temp may reach over 1000F! Instead I start turning down the air 50% when the flue gas temp reaches about 500F. This reduces the peak stove top temp and lengthens the burn.

westkywood, are you running the blower at those high temps?

 

[westkywood]

I am closing the stove down earlier and going by stack temps (probe) not stove top temps. If I let the stovetop reach 550F before turning down the air the flue temp may reach over 1000F! Instead I start turning down the air 50% when the flue gas temp reaches about 500F. This reduces the peak stove top temp and lengthens the burn.

westkywood, are you running the blower at those high temps?

I don't have a blower. It's a pedestal model. I usually turn the air down half way for a little bit before shutting down.
I recall you talking about plugging the hole on the boost air. My stove is the B Series. I assume the EBT would close off once the stove is going good. I plugged the hole on the boost air for a few days and really didn't notice much difference. Since I have 3 and 4 year old seasoned wood and good draw ( when it's good and cold out) would it be to my advantage to plug the hole? Maybe only during really cold weather?

 

[begreen]

If you burn mostly N/S, have strong draft and dry wood I think you can leave it plugged. Ours has been closed off for 7 yrs now. Try shutting down the air much sooner. As soon as the wood is getting nicely involved with flame, turn it down until the fire starts getting lazy. Wait until the fire regains strength and turn it down again. If the stove top exceeds 800F it is likely that the air was not turned down soon enough, the splits were not thick enough, draft is very strong. Another possibility is that the thermometer is not accurate. Has that been checked?

I would have a fan set to blow across the top of the stove when the temp gets high. That will cool down the top 100-150F.
If the draft is always very strong the flue or the air supply may need to be restricted. How tall is the chimney on the stove?

 

[westkywood]

Thank you for the real-time data; it is exactly what I was looking for. How many sqft are you heating and what is the layout?

I've got 1300 sq ft. Part of my house was built in the early 30's. Some of my walls have no studs but I have studded out and insulated some of them. My living room is studded out but no insulation. Lots of insulation in the attic and I have new windows. I've changed my doors to new insulated doors. My stove is at the end of the house so I loose some efficiency there. If my house was better insulated, my heat would never kick on with this stove and the only time it does kick on is on the really cold nights (lower teens) after 7 hours or so when I'm still asleep.
That being said. I bet if I averaged out how often my heat kicks on through out the entire winter, I bet it wouldn't average out to be a full week.
This is my 4th winter with a 500 gallon propane tank fill. They fill it to the 80 mark. It is now setting on the 47 mark. This is my first winter with my Summit. For 5 years I used a Super 27. With the 27 I just had to tend to it more and dump the ashes more often.
As you can tell by my rough ( and I do mean rough) drawing, I have a long way to push air. The red line shows how I get the air to move around the house. I set a small fan where the purple X is and blow it towards the stove. That draws the warm air into my bedroom and around. As you can see, it's very difficult to get the warm air to that back bedroom bathroom...

 

[westkywood]

If you burn mostly N/S, have strong draft and dry wood I think you can leave it plugged. Ours has been closed off for 7 yrs now. Try shutting down the air much sooner. As soon as the wood is getting nicely involved with flame, turn it down until the fire starts getting lazy. Wait until the fire regains strength and turn it down again. If the stove top exceeds 800F it is likely that the air was not turned down soon enough, the splits were not thick enough, draft is very strong. Another possibility is that the thermometer is not accurate. Has that been checked?

I would have a fan set to blow across the top of the stove when the temp gets high. That will cool down the top 100-150F.
If the draft is always very strong the flue or the air supply may need to be restricted. How tall is the chimney on the stove?

I burn mostly N/S, but that night I burned E/W to slow it down. I turned the air down as soon as it got hot enough to get secondaries.My draft is a bit less than when I had it hooked to the Super 27. I never got smoke in the house with it. I raised the stove off the floor with the Summit loosing a foot of pipe. I added another 2 ft of Class A 2 weeks ago because on days above 35 or so I was getting a small amount of smoke in the house where I never did with the Super 27. I've got 5 ft single wall and 10 ft Class A pipe going straight up. The thermometer I use is an IR. I've checked it and it's only off by about 5 degrees.
I was laying on the couch 8 ft away and the radiation from the stove was beating down on me. I didn't have huge splits in there but I'd say they were average. I save my bigger splits of over night. Maybe 4 year old Oak is just too dry for those outside temps??

 

[begreen]

Could be the smaller splits of dry wood, there are a lot of btus in oak. Our locust and cherry splits run about 4-8" thick.

 

[westkywood]

Could be the smaller splits of dry wood, there are a lot of btus in oak. Our locust and cherry splits run about 4-8" thick.

Thanks for your help...

 

[begreen]

I'd try being more aggressive with turning down the air earlier. And have a fan standing by to blow across the stove top.

 

[Squisher]

835 is a roasting. I've had my stove up there a couple of times by accident. Those are some nice times and numbers. I've got a small stash of oak sitting way off in the corner of my wood area, rarer than hens teeth around these parts for firewood, but I can hardly wait to give it a go. Maybe next year.