Payback period/Resale value with Boiler system

[headrc]

Now that I am putting the final touches on figures on putting in a boiler system ....it now looks like my payback period is going to be 9-10 years given todays fuel costs. Yes I know .....everyone "knows" that those costs will go up not down ....but the safest bet is to use today's costs IMO. So ....I have to ask what are everyone elses payback periods etsimated to be? 9-10 years could mean that I am not even in this world to realize those savings. Which brings up another topic ....can anyone speak to resale value of a property with one of these systems installed ....just in case my wife needs to be selling this property without me helping at a later date? Thx, RH

 

[Eric Johnson]

I have a big, old house in a cold climate and wood free for the hauling, so I estimate my payback at 2 years.

I think a real estate agent would tell you that a woodburning appliance actually detracts from the resale value of your home, but if someone like me was the buyer, obviously, it would be worth paying extra for.

 

[headrc]

Two years! Now I could do that ....Thx Eric

 

[Chris S]

I also am figuring 2 years 1200 gallons of oil/ year (estimated)= 9600 worth of heating system
even 2 1/2 years not so bad
But I live quite a bit North of you ( Eric even further)

C

 

[free75degrees]

I currently pay about $4000 per year on oil at $4 / gallon. For my system with storage I figure about 3 years. A couple months ago I was researching photovoltaic solar cells for electricity and the payback was around 15 years so this is a MUCH easier decision. If I had to I would have even taken a loan to pay for my boiler - the loan payments would probably be less than the oil payments that they would replace!

 

[firebird400]

i am also looking at a 2 year pay back here in ct think im going with a tarm solo 40 no storge this year nd hope to add storage next year there saying oil is going to be 5.00 gal next season here and i use about 1200 to 1400 ayear in oil and i get free wood nice to have tree guys has friends so pretty quick payback

 

[Rick Stanley]

Actually, I just put a deposit down on a Garn 2000 today. The entire project will end up costing around $20,OOO, give or take. Figuring $4/gal oil @ 1800 gallons per year, that's roughly a three year payback. I've been able to keep it down to 1000 - 1300 gallons/year by humping small wood to three small wood stoves. Yeah, I'll miss that chore :roll:

I'm in hopes that a nice new wood boiler will help out the resale value since the house is sitting on a large woodlot. How could it not? Depends on the buyer I guess.

Anyway, I guess that makes me a cult member now :coolsmile:

 

[Eric Johnson]

I like to maintain a 3- or 4-year supply of firewood. I'm thinking that when it comes time to sell the house, instead of lemon squares, I can say: Plus, you get free heat and hot water for 4 years. How's that for a sales pitch on a big, old house?

 

[Donl]

Resale Value? Damn! With all the work we have put into this place, and once the EKO is fully operational nobody will be able to take us out of here. My only goals will be to ride and drive the horses, work in the bush, and stoke the boiler come winter. Our kids can worry about resale value later.

Don

 

[Rick Stanley]

Wow!! Just think of it. The day could soon come when having a few years of wood sitting in our barns could add 100K to the home value. Holy smoke!! No pun intended. I guess that would take $10/gallon oil but who knows.

Just saw the newest post. If that's the case, then make the kids fill the barn with wood. Even better, right?

 

[headrc]

I've got orses ...but no kids ...so I guess the horses will have to worry about resale value! RH

 

[Chris S]

I always think resale, but I'll take it out if the buyers don't want it, i know somebody will want a good used European boiler.

 

[heaterman]

I have a strong hunch that in only 4-5 years you won't be able to sell a big, old, hard to heat house without some kind of alternative or supplemental heating system. If you do some serious searching on the net regarding worldwide oil consumption vs worldwide production it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the odds of oil prices hitting $200/barrel are probably greater than going back down to $50. So much for payback times.

If you accept that scenario, it's fairly easy to assume that a house with a central heating system not dependent on fossil fuel will probably command a premium price all other things being equal. In addition to that you have to, or at least you should, consider the green effect of using biomass instead of fossil fuel. That is something that should be considered in all our purchasing decisions.

 

[headrc]

I have considered all that ....and by the way one factor on future oil costs happens to be the value of the dollar ...which it is denominated in worldwide ...so then you have to predict that the dollar is going to stay as low as it is now .....or even lower. Now we are into politics and other things ....and well ....let's not go there. With all the feedback here ...it looks like I am a little unique because of my location. A lot can happen in 9-10 years .....including me not being here to help my wife with what I have put together. I think that a decision that can get a return within two years is a no-brainer ...one that takes around 4-5 is still probably a good decision ....but 10 years is too long of a payback. Currently I am now trying to go back and see how I reduce the cost of the install ....and I may have to go where I had not wanted to ....one of the outside wood burning (dirty,inefficient use of wood) units ...because wood is cheap here (free) and I can possibly get my payback to 4-5 years. The gasification with heat storage, building to house it, backup power etc. etc. is just too expensive for my application .....and solar is even more expensive because it does not cut out my fossil fuel costs in total ....but I really appreciate everyone's input and help ....it helped me a lot and kept me from making what was probably the wrong decision .....Thx again, RH

 

[Redox]

RH, it looks like you will be able to see further into the future than we can concerning your situation, so make the decision you and your wife are most comfortable with. If I may be so bold, don't underestimate your wife's abilities especially if the situation becomes dire and she gets a little cold. They are usually stronger and more resourceful than they look! :down: My wife was scared of the stove until she got cold and I wasn't around to feed it.

Good luck in your decision.

Chris

 

[Eric Johnson]

Redox is obviously right about doing a rational analysis and making the right decision in your case, which may well be sticking with fossil fuels. So this is just more information for you to consider if you haven't already, not an attempt to lobby you one way or the other.

Do you have a basement, RH? I think if you shopped around you could find a really efficient gasifier or decent conventional wood-fired boiler that would work well. Sure, there are logistics concerning wood storage and accessibility, but those are usually not insurmountable. You can get by with a much smaller unit if it's indoors because of the radiant heat from the boiler and chimney that you capture, and the installation and equipment costs are much lower.

Another thing to think about is that while the payback period is important, you have to consider comfort as well. I think most of us would agree that we're a lot more comfortable with wood heat, mainly because no matter what oil or gas costs, you're always going to be keeping the thermostat lower than you'd like. Money is money, after all. And don't forget about the savings from having unlimited hot water. You can take long showers and not feel guilty.

 

[headrc]

Thx again for the response Eric and Redux ...yes I have considered all that ....and my wife is definitely resourceful (she has been known to do plumbing). No ...there is not a basement. It just all comes down to ....I am in a more temperate climate than what it looks like with everyone else on this forum and I cannot justify a 10 year payback. If something would happen to me during that period ....my wife will be selling a property (120 acre farm that she could not maintain without me) and the gasifier will most probably be sold at a loss because nobody down here even knows about them ...for the same reason that I am deciding not to invest in one ....they are too expensive for this climate. The comfort issue is one reason why I still pursue this with the possibility of the inefficient OWB ...which is common around here to an extent. But if that cannot be justified in a 4-5 year period then I will put a gas fired water heater for the radiant heat in my new outbuilding and we will precede with the current modus operandi for the farm house. More clothes in the house ...and enjoy the radiant heat in the extra living space in the new outbuilding. I am trying guys ....but the economics do not work so far ....Thx again, RH

 

[Eric Johnson]

Good luck, RH.

I don't think there's a downside to waiting, in any event. We're going to be seeing a lot more gasifiers in the coming years, including (hopefully) some viable units designed to be used outdoors. Prices may actually come down, though that's not the trend at the moment, what with the high price of steel and weak U.S. dollar.

I'm sure you've considered a woodstove. For around $1,000 you can have a clean-burning stove that will knock the socks off your monthly energy bill.

 

[Burn-1]

....I am in a more temperate climate than what it looks like with everyone else on this forum and I cannot justify a 10 year payback.

RH have you considered a geothermal system?

You're right about your climate. From a quick census of my memory of where gasifier owners within the Boiler Room reside, I would bet most have at least ten degrees of latitude on you and are generally in 7,000+ heating degree day climates. Looking around for some of middle-eastern parts of TN I see that you're probably close to half that at between 3,500-4,000 heating degree days. On the flip side you have about 1,200-1,500 cooling degree days whereas the latitudes of most gasifier owners probably have fewer than 350 cooling degree days.

So your climate demands roughly half the heating demand but four times the cooling load of areas where gasifiers have made good economic sense. It's not hard to see that the larger gasifying units typically available and described here would definitely be overkill and a long payback.

Geothermal systems are coming into greater cost competitiveness with other options and you get year-round comfort. As someone who works in real estate valuation I can tell you there are few things which give greater resale prices than their cost, particularly considering the consolidating and flattening pricing trends found in most places currently. Electricity probably will go up in price but given the TVA's capacity there's not much worry of it running out and it's nowhere near as volatile as petroleum based fuels. I think if you matched that with a decent wood stove for back-up you would be in for a pretty good payback situation and would certainly make your house more marketable in the future.

Edit: Another thing I forgot to mention is that if more people convert to gasification type boiler there is a good likelihood that some of the smaller gasifiers for example like some of the Atmos models below 20kw will probably make their way over here. I don't think the EKO 18's are still available through New Horizon but at that lower price point payback periods will decrease substantially.

 

[solarguy]

If you're burning a 1000 gallons of fuel oil a year, you can heat your home with a gasifier & burn 5 cords of wood.
You'll pay off your wood boiler purchase in roughly 2 heating seasons. This doesn't cover water storage, controls or installation but you get the idea.

 

[headrc]

I have looked at the geothermal ...and the cooling aspect of it doesn't seem to work well in a humid area ....which Tennesse definitely is. It too is expensive. Believe me I have been looking at this every which way but loose as they say ....I have not found an answer that I can cost justify of yet ....the most likely one is the OWB at this time ...which I am going to revisit this week. I have to have a total system answer for no more than $7500 for it to give a payback of five years.

I could pay off the cost of a gasification boiler itself in 4-5 years ....I use 750 gallons of propane a year ....but that is only part of the picture .....installation of all the other necessary components as I have come to understand it doubles the cost at the very least ....and it could be more when it is all said and done .....so at the very least it is a $13000 investment .....which again gets me to 9-10 years to pay it off and that is too long ....

Again thank you for all the great input ....

RH

 

[Reggie Dunlap]

I don't know the installation costs of an OWB, but I don't think you'll get one installed for $7500. At least not a good one, if there is such a thing. As Eric said, in your climate a woodstove might be the best option.

 

[Redox]

I have looked at the geothermal ...and the cooling aspect of it doesn't seem to work well in a humid area ....which Tennesse definitely is. It too is expensive. Believe me I have been looking at this every which way but loose as they say ....I have not found an answer that I can cost justify of yet ....the most likely one is the OWB at this time ...which I am going to revisit this week. I have to have a total system answer for no more than $7500 for it to give a payback of five years.

Where'd you hear they don't dehumidify? This is a new one on me and yes, I know humidity, Hon.

I think you may be further south than the great majority of Hearth members and may be running into the law of diminishing returns. Pulling out the heavy artillery in such a relatively mild climate isn't cost effective IMHO. If you were just trying to do space heating, I think a regular air to air heat pump would be hard to beat. How often do you even drop below freezing down there? Ground source heat pumps are probably the best available "conventional" technology, but as you noted are pricy to install. Use a modern EPA wood stove when it gets colder and the heat pump's performance starts to drop off.

It's a different matter if you are trying to heat water and sustain a farming operation. I don't have much experience in this regard, but making your operation as efficient as possible is the first step. Radiant is an excellent first step in this process. Maybe solar has some potential?

Chris

 

[headrc]

Sorry to keep saying no to the suggestions ...but my wife and I have been around wood stove heat ....and it is not something we could handle personally ....there are some OWBs out there that can be had in the $4,000-$5000 range ....and that includes some of the other components that you need for a system. Supposedly I can then build the rest of the system for $2500. So that is within the budget. Of course I will be checking their reps before I purchase ...doing my research just as much as I have on the gasification ....if they are not a smart investment then they are out as well. The biggest thing that I can tell with them though is efficiency ....which means more wood. And of course they are dirtier ....but my mearest neighbor is 5000 feet and the boiler will be above the house ....but I will be double checking that problem as well. Keep em coming guys if you are not tire of me already! I do appreciate your concern ...RH

 

[Redox]

Sorry to keep saying no to the suggestions ...but my wife and I have been around wood stove heat ....and it is not something we could handle personally ....there are some OWBs out there that can be had in the $4,000-$5000 range ....and that includes some of the other components that you need for a system. Supposedly I can then build the rest of the system for $2500. So that is within the budget. Of course I will be checking their reps before I purchase ...doing my research just as much as I have on the gasification ....if they are not a smart investment then they are out as well. The biggest thing that I can tell with them though is efficiency ....which means more wood. And of course they are dirtier ....but my mearest neighbor is 5000 feet and the boiler will be above the house ....but I will be double checking that problem as well. Keep em coming guys if you are not tire of me already! I do appreciate your concern ...RH

Nahhh, we never get tired of it! You mention "wood stove heat" as if it is a bad thing. Most of us here really like that kind of heat.

You might have been experienced with an older stove that tended to run a little wild at times. The newer EPA compliant stoves are much more controllable than the older models and it is very easy to dial down the fire when you don't want to be blasted out of the room. Our Quad with the blower heats more air to a lower temperature and doesn't sear your face off like the old Fisher did. I actually have trouble getting the 600 sf room it's in to go over 80 degrees as most of the heat is already drifting up the stairs. The construction of the house and the placement of the stove really makes a big difference. Might be worth it to take a second look at a modern stove...

It would seem to me that in Tennessee, A/C is almost as important as heat. I'm told by a friend in NC that; if the A/C in your car doesn't work, that car is "broke" and you don't drive it! If you have central air, it might be worth replacing it with a heat pump as they aren't usually that much more expensive. If you don't have CAC, it would help the resale value a LOT to add it. Around here, it's almost impossible to sell a house without it.

What everybody in this forum is trying to do is steer you away from an OWB. It is easy to use a sledgehammer to fix the problem, but it isn't always the best solution. They are really a step backwards as far as technology goes. Maybe you can give us more information about the house (construction and fuel consumption)? It's easy to recommend a gasifier when you live in or near the Great White North, but those of us in more temperate climates have to evaluate more options. I don't think they even know what a heat pump is up there...



Chris