OK all - I think it's time to have the dealer come out and check it. Seems like consensus is something is awry, I am going to buy another thermometer today as a double-check, but bottom line is we ran the furnace all night to keep our little house warm. I removed the OAK and no change (maybe just a bit more air, still under 540 max temp - we have a long run for the OAK) I'll look again, but didn't see/feel any knockouts, the bottom 4" hole is open and I can feel the air intake inside it to the rear. Only other thing I can think of is wood or something inhibiting the draft, but neither seems viable. Regarding the "punky" wood, I should elaborate. I've used this repeatedly to start fires. The majority (95%) of the wood is either dry beetly kill pine, or seasoned HW - mostly elm, some ash and a little oak. Down and split for >2 years, catches right away and no sizzle at all. We also have a prob. with coal buildup, which indicates further some kind of problem I think. I'm assuming that as we just paid decent $ for a stove, the dealer will offer at least a "check it out" service... Maybe he will notice something I missed. But not counting on it - thanks to you all I'm pretty sure your collective experience has hit most of the possibilities.
PE T6 - not working as expected - Bad decision or just uneducated?
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moosetrek said:
Have the stove fired up when the dealer gets there to highlight how little it is heating.
From the manual:
2. Room air supply -There is a 4" opening in the ash box enclosure. The stove will draw
its air from the room through this opening and into the firebox intake.
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So there is only one air intake to make sure is open, and I would guess to rule out restrictions, remove ash pan and take a look.
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Also from the manual:
Low Heat Output
1. Wood is wet • Use dry wood
2. Fire too small • Build a larger fire
3. Draft too low • Chimney plugged or restricted,
inspect and clean
2. Room air supply -There is a 4" opening in the ash box enclosure. The stove will draw
its air from the room through this opening and into the firebox intake.
////////////////////
So there is only one air intake to make sure is open, and I would guess to rule out restrictions, remove ash pan and take a look.
////////////////////////////////
Also from the manual:
Low Heat Output
1. Wood is wet • Use dry wood
2. Fire too small • Build a larger fire
3. Draft too low • Chimney plugged or restricted,
inspect and clean
I love this one-
Low Heat Output: 2. Fire too small • Build a larger fire
Thanks guys - will check this evening when I get home. Maybe take a couple hours @ lunch and run home to check it out if I can. I talked to the dealer I wish I'd bought through, about 50 miles away, and he was really helpful. Said he's never had any issues with PE stoves, but they're a great company and stand behind them. Local dealer we did go through is not experienced with them, but willing to help, and has to wait for PE to open this morning to call and ask for help.
Low Heat Output: 2. Fire too small • Build a larger fire
Thanks guys - will check this evening when I get home. Maybe take a couple hours @ lunch and run home to check it out if I can. I talked to the dealer I wish I'd bought through, about 50 miles away, and he was really helpful. Said he's never had any issues with PE stoves, but they're a great company and stand behind them. Local dealer we did go through is not experienced with them, but willing to help, and has to wait for PE to open this morning to call and ask for help.
moosetrek said:
I had a chuckle as well when i was pasting it. I would make sure you stuff the OAK with insulation. How close was the magnetic thermometer? Also, forgot to ask, are you using the blower? As I cannot get much past 600 with the blower on....
A WAY while back, in physics class, I vaguely recall that the btu heat output is an exponential relationship to the temperature of the object, so it would behoove you to figure out what the temp actually is of your stove, and maximize it without turning the stove red hot.
Any younger physicists with functioning brain matter can correct me if I am in error.
If it had an OAK, the knockout had to be removed.
Bring a box load of good wood from a friend or from the grocery store and try it on the stove. Fill it to the gills. Give it enough air to get the wood fully burning, then reduce the air supply in stages. The fire should look like my avatar.
Bring a box load of good wood from a friend or from the grocery store and try it on the stove. Fill it to the gills. Give it enough air to get the wood fully burning, then reduce the air supply in stages. The fire should look like my avatar.
post pics of your setup ..... fill that baby up and let it run with the air wide open for 20 min before you start to shut down better yet run it till it looks like begreens avatar !!
BB - don't tempt me! That's crossed my mind... I came home at lunch, and emptied the stove. Looked it over, inspected everything. Vacuumed out the air intake, blew it out (mistake - will be washing ash out of wife's couch coverings and other stuff for a while now). Then I cleaned the chimney, and started a fire from scratch. Used a new thermometer too. Something must have been cleared out, I hit 600 then shut it down and watched it climb to 700+. Now we're up to 65 in the house- Even though it's getting hot, it still doesn't seem to be keeping the house warm the way the Englander did, maybe radiant v convection heat? The local dealer called the company, who asked me to call directly - I spent about 30 mins on the phone with someone in tech support who was really really helpful; as a company PE gets two thumbs up! We'll see how it does tonight and the next few days, but if it doesn't start heating better maybe we need to look at another radiant stove. I can't see spending 3X the $ for a stove and still being cold- Thanks again all for the help.
moosetrek said:
Doesn't a convection stove work better with a blower? When I looked into a new stove before I got the Mansfield I looked into the Hearthstone Bennington, which is a convection style stove, and the dealer strongly recommended a blower with it as it performs the best with a blower.
Now, I have never used a convection style stove, so my information may not be accurate... and you may already have a blower. I'm just throwing it out there and hoping you find a way to make this thing work for you.
BrowningBAR said:
i was just gonna ask about a blower!!
moose do you have a blower??
you are using a t6 which is cast.. it will give off more of a "gentle" heat vs the nc30 which is steel.. so you prolly wont get that "get outta the room effect" because of this.... but your nc30 shld lose heat more rapidly and your cast shld be warmer after say 6hr-8 hrs.. meaning the heating curve will be more even with a t6 vs a nc30.. supposedly.... you def need a fan if you dont have one.... take a house fan put it about 20ft in front of your stove..(blowing towards the stove) this should help you move air better... put the fan on low if it is a box fan..
In the OP he said this is a 900 sq. ft. house. If either of those stoves doesn't run them out of the house in an hours time they need to put the roof back on it. :-/
The T6 will take quite a bit longer than the Englander to heat up but once it does it holds the heat longer.
Now that you have the stove starting to heat up you need to let it keep going for a longer period to see the true results. If your stove stops at 700 then leave the air open a small amount to keep it up in the prime heating area. I regularly run my stove over 800 and shes really putting out. This stove can take the high temps.
The main reason the stove takes so long to heat the house is MOST of the heat comes of the top. It has to heat from the top down. Just give it time and eventually the house will heat up and then you will appreciate the soft heat.
Now that you have the stove starting to heat up you need to let it keep going for a longer period to see the true results. If your stove stops at 700 then leave the air open a small amount to keep it up in the prime heating area. I regularly run my stove over 800 and shes really putting out. This stove can take the high temps.
The main reason the stove takes so long to heat the house is MOST of the heat comes of the top. It has to heat from the top down. Just give it time and eventually the house will heat up and then you will appreciate the soft heat.
BrotherBart said:
Yeah - that's what's got me so "fired up" - I'd be happy with a stove that we need to turn down to heat the 900 sq ft house. The 30 did that, but loaded to get an all night burn was too hot. We wanted a "gentle" heat, but sort of like Goldilocks - this one might be too gentle. It's cruising at around 600 - 700 all evening, and we're still only about 64 at the end of the room. I'd think maybe it's the house, if we hadn't had the experience with the 30 keeping us toasty in negative temps during a blizzard last year.
I appreciate the suggestions of the blower, and I can see the need to move the air a bit into the far back porch / bathroom, but I would think that the T6 sans blower should be more that up to heating a 30 x 16 open common area hot enough that we have warm air to move into the other areas, even at 0 F outside. We've got about R30+ above the ceiling, and I'm guessing the walls to be about R9-10 between the paneling, airspace, plaster, and new steel siding. Maybe blasphemy to say this, but would a Summit be a more appropriate stove for our purposes? Maybe we really need that radiant heat, and will have to deal with getting up in the night to keep smaller fires in the shoulder season? It just seems a small open house should be easily heated by a large woodstove on the coldest nights, we had no trouble heating a small farmhouse with a Lopi growing up, in a colder climate than this... Ah, well - enough venting for now... Warm wishes all!
BrotherBart said:
Ta Da! As usual, BB hit the bullseye.
The reason the 30NC was doing a better job is that it radiates heat so you and all solid masses around the stove are feeling and absorbing the direct energy of the stove. This house has to be leaking very badly. The single best investment you can do is to call up your local gas or electric utility and ask for references and phone numbers for a qualified energy auditor. Get the audit. Heck it is probably subsidized. I'm betting that less than $100 of caulk, Great Stuff and some common sense applied in the right locations can raise the interior temps by 10 degrees.
Save the blower money, it would be a bandaid for this situation. Fix the cause, not the symptom.
It is fairly easy to remove the side panels, to turn this into a hybrid summit/t6. though i would imagine clearances are different without the side panels so you would have to be careful with this advice. I do not know how hard it is to declad the remaining parts of the stove.....
[quote author="moosetrek" date="1262933912"]Something must have been cleared out, I hit 600 then shut it down and watched it climb to 700+. quote]
I have noticed that mine burns hotter and more evenly for a couple days, after cleaning out the ash buildup and reducing the bulk of the buildup in the floor of the stove.
I have noticed that mine burns hotter and more evenly for a couple days, after cleaning out the ash buildup and reducing the bulk of the buildup in the floor of the stove.
Quick update-
I spoke with Tom (I think?) at Chimneysweep, who was amazingly helpful. We went through everything together (even though I am not his customer, and live about 1500 miles away - great store!). We established that the stove is working correctly, and burning well at 6-700 so the next question is where did the heat go? We had about 36 sq feet of glass immediately across from the stove, soaking all the radiant heat from the front. Then we had 9' ceilings, and minimal insulation in the attic. I blew another R19-R25 of insulation into the attic, and covered all windows with thermal curtains. Unfortunately the temps are only going into the low 20s, so a real test isn't possible until we drop below 0 again. But my gut feeling is that we solved the heat loss problem. PE so far has been so far beyond my expectations to deal with - Our local service guy went out of his way to make sure we were set, and put me in contact with a real someone in the tech dept at PE; who helped out with all the questions and had some great ideas. I had asked another local dealer some questions since he has a lot more experience than the one we bought from. The other local dealer said if we still don't like it, let him know and he'll work something out (and we didn't even buy the stove from him).
Bottom line, the T6 now seems to heat our place fine. I'm still not sure we're sold on the convection stove, we miss being able to really feel the heat other than right in front of the stove. If only PE made a radiant stove like the T6- the 30NC was just too intense for our living room but this one seems to lack a little of the "wood stove" feel we love. Oh well - at least we're warm(er)! Thanks everyone for the help, and I can't stress enough how excellent PE's customer service has been at every level!
I spoke with Tom (I think?) at Chimneysweep, who was amazingly helpful. We went through everything together (even though I am not his customer, and live about 1500 miles away - great store!). We established that the stove is working correctly, and burning well at 6-700 so the next question is where did the heat go? We had about 36 sq feet of glass immediately across from the stove, soaking all the radiant heat from the front. Then we had 9' ceilings, and minimal insulation in the attic. I blew another R19-R25 of insulation into the attic, and covered all windows with thermal curtains. Unfortunately the temps are only going into the low 20s, so a real test isn't possible until we drop below 0 again. But my gut feeling is that we solved the heat loss problem. PE so far has been so far beyond my expectations to deal with - Our local service guy went out of his way to make sure we were set, and put me in contact with a real someone in the tech dept at PE; who helped out with all the questions and had some great ideas. I had asked another local dealer some questions since he has a lot more experience than the one we bought from. The other local dealer said if we still don't like it, let him know and he'll work something out (and we didn't even buy the stove from him).
Bottom line, the T6 now seems to heat our place fine. I'm still not sure we're sold on the convection stove, we miss being able to really feel the heat other than right in front of the stove. If only PE made a radiant stove like the T6- the 30NC was just too intense for our living room but this one seems to lack a little of the "wood stove" feel we love. Oh well - at least we're warm(er)! Thanks everyone for the help, and I can't stress enough how excellent PE's customer service has been at every level!
moose,
depending on your stove location, and clearances etc, you could experiment with removing one or both of the cast iron side panels to see if you like the affect of more radiant heat.... I goofed around just to see and it does change the heating characteristics, but a veto from the esthetics officer in house.
you need a socket wrench with extensions, if i recall they are 7/16" times three or four. Heads up, watch your toes when you are removing the panel as the side panel is fairly heavier then I thought, say ~ 25 pounds or so. If you are slightly mechanicaly inclined, it should take 5 mins to remove and reinstall the cast iron panel.
t6 owners this is how/where you get to the three bolts to adjust the door hinge for refinement of fit.
I also think this (hinge movement) is the source of some of the louder sounds during heating and cooling of the stove body, and the door fit should be checked periodically, especially if you hear some loud sounds from the stove.
depending on your stove location, and clearances etc, you could experiment with removing one or both of the cast iron side panels to see if you like the affect of more radiant heat.... I goofed around just to see and it does change the heating characteristics, but a veto from the esthetics officer in house.
you need a socket wrench with extensions, if i recall they are 7/16" times three or four. Heads up, watch your toes when you are removing the panel as the side panel is fairly heavier then I thought, say ~ 25 pounds or so. If you are slightly mechanicaly inclined, it should take 5 mins to remove and reinstall the cast iron panel.
t6 owners this is how/where you get to the three bolts to adjust the door hinge for refinement of fit.
I also think this (hinge movement) is the source of some of the louder sounds during heating and cooling of the stove body, and the door fit should be checked periodically, especially if you hear some loud sounds from the stove.
moosetrek said:
C'mon, fess up... you left a piece of bubble wrap inside it, right? ;-P
Seriously, the talk about making sure to remove the knockout got me to thinking. I used to work at Woodcraft, and one of the big sellers was the small 1100 CFM Jet air filter. They sold like hotcakes. We had two in our classroom to keep the dust from getting into the store. I took advantage of my employee discount, got one and screwed in to the floor joists above my workspace. Not as much flow as I thought it should for a small shop, but it did the job. We had two in the classroom for that reason, even though one was supposed to move enough CFM to handle the room.
Well, about a couple years later I noticed that it really wasn't blowing very hard at all, even with a brand new filter. I got out the owner's manual for the first time, and there, Number 1 under the "Assembly" section - in bold print - were the words:
"Remove all packing from inside of the unit by removing the outer filter and inner filters."
We had always assumed they were "plug-and-play" units, and sold them as such. Being male and not particularly anal, I never read the instruction manual. Doubt anybody does.. it's a fan. So, when I removed the inner filter to clean it, what did I find?
Four 8"x8"x2" styrofoam blocks directly in the way of air path. Boy, that thing can move some serious air now! :red:
We had many returns from folks that found out they needed a bigger unit for their shop. Wonder how many of them never read the assembly instructions?
Anyway, I wonder how many folks claiming to have problems with their EPA stoves haven't read and understood the owner's manual? When I finally get one, I intend to read it cover to cover.
Good to hear your at least keeping warmish. I just want to say what I might have not emphasized enough that is when its cold here 600 does not cut it sometimes 700 is when its just getting going. If you can get it up to 750 or even 800 you will notice a significant increase in output. That means in my case of reloading on a good big bed of coals with the stove sitting at 500 or so charring the splits and turning it all the way down in 2 stages. The stove will continue to increase temp after turning it down when done at these levels. The truth be told my stove will go to 800 even if I let it get down to 300 if I load it up. But then I am burning pine.
Battenkiller said:
That, is some of the simplest, best advice I have ever seen on here. Thumbs up.
Yep - Pretty sure I removed all the stuff - I've done that before with new toys, and learned my lesson! It can hit about 800 pretty easy, I might try Madison's suggestion of removing the plates to see if it makes a difference in how we like the stove. Pretty sure that won't pass the aesthtics test here either, but it'll help decide if we want to consider something drastic like a different stove. I'm out of town for work, and the temps are in the 40s to 50s this week, so no good chance to try it out though. Darn those warm temps!
moosetrek said:
you can hit 800????? if you are hitting 800 easily.... then it is def all the cast iron on that stove... if you take it off you will def cook yourself out of the house... did you ever hit 800 with the 30?
moosetrek said:
I'm still at a loss as to how a stove the size of the T6 can hit 800 and still not drive you out of the room? I could understand if we were talking about a stove the size of an Intrepid or if the stove was wedged into a fireplace, but it isn't.
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