Pellet Boiler - Isn't cutting the mustard

[Ambient]

(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/Products/HydroFlex-60-Pellet-Boiler.aspx)

First things first, this is NOT my installation, so I have the story as told to me by a friend. For years he has always helped me with no strings attached, I'd like to see if I can resolve this issue for him. He is one of several people in town that always helps others. A year ago he purchased the aforementioned unit and the dealer installed it. Immediately he had troubles, and continues to regret this decision, a decision based on the recommendations of a dealer. I didn't know how I could help him before, when just a few months ago I hadn't even considered a pellet stove for our house, and had zero experience and knowledge to relate to. If I've learned anything during the last few months it's that the Hearth.com forum folks are in the know. Please help me point him in the right direction.

The installation: Attached to an existing hydronic system to replace an aging oil boiler gone bad. This unit was to be able to sustain the proper amount of heat in a multi level, old victorian home Circa 1900's, approximately 2300 sq ft. No insulation in the walls, and some now in the attic, this unit can't get enough heat into the house to sustain his elderly mother (her house, his Dad had just passed away). After spending this money to purchase and install, and then repair** he's ready to throw in the towel. **the unit has had some repair issues, mostly from the environment it was installed in. The circuit board has failed at least once, corrosive effects of a damp basement. He has had some other installers/dealers in to sort this out, still struggling on. The bottom line...there's still not enough heat.

The first thing I noticed was the unit is a 60K with an 90% efficiency aka 54000 BTU's on the output. He was under the impression that this was the largest unit available, and that it would do the job.

The second thing that stands out is the unit is working so hard to heat all of the hydronic baseboard volume, that it is obviously and woefully underpowered.

Is there a way to recover from this calamity? My thoughts were:

Install a heat exchange/storage tank, let the boiler heat just the heat exchange tank water and keep it at temp.

OR

Install a smaller stove (soon to be found on Craigslist as suggested on the forum) in the living area to help offset the deficiencies. This unit is suggested to be a supplemental unit according to the Harman website, why it was recommended I don't know.

I'm thinking that there are so many variables that a concrete answer may not be available. Yet, I'm hoping that I can at least convey some very informed opinions for consideration from this wonderful "Think Tank".

 

[Peterfield]

It was recommended because the dealer apparently sold him what he had to sell, not what your friend needed.

 

[Ambient]

It was recommended because the dealer apparently sold him what he had to sell, not what your friend needed.

Sadly, my experiences when we were "shopping" were also less than satisfactory, it almost seemed like I was shopping for a used car.

 

[Bkins]

How long ago was this installed?

 

[Ambient]

How long ago was this installed?

The Winter of 2013/2014

 

[kofkorn]

From the bullets on the product description:

• 60,000 BTUs — heats 1,400 to 3,600 square feet, based on climate and home efficiency
• Compact unit ideal for supplemental heating
• Delivers more heat using less fuel; greater than 90% efficient
• 160 lb. hopper capacity

It appears that this should have bee plumbed in series with the existing oil boiler. The pellet boiler would have heated the system up to the point where it reached capacity, and then the oil would have provided the remainder. This system doesn't appear to be intended to be a sole heating source.

Solutions possible:

1) Insulate - in the long term, this will be the most cost efficient change. If your friend can insulate better, then the existing unit may be able to keep up.

2) Add an oil boiler into the system. - Plumb it so that the return line feeds into the pellet boiler first, then through the oil furnace. This will make the system work as intended.

3) Upgrade the pellet boiler - replace it with a PB-105, which should be able to keep up with the demand. Make sure to do heat loss calculations first!

Good luck!

 

[moey]

INSULATE!

and then insulate some more. If the house is sealed and the attic insulated I suspect you could satisfy most winter days to about 0F.

You could look into putting a electric boiler inline that boosts the temp another 20F or so on super cold days. Some folks keep their oil/gas boiler to add a extra boost on super cold days. The pellet boiler operates more efficiently on the warmer days and on the colder days you supplement. Operating costs are about the same as if you put in a larger pellet system sometimes even better.

Hard call on the damp basement there's no inexpensive fix for that.

A storage tank only works if its cold for one day then warms up. It does avoid short cycling if you have some zones that are small. That is usually what it is installed for in any application.

A PB105 would probably cost more to run then the existing system with something supplementing. Unfortunately the cost comes with a more complicated system.

 

[Ambient]

INSULATE!

and then insulate some more. If the house is sealed and the attic insulated I suspect you could satisfy most winter days to about 0F.

You could look into putting a electric boiler inline that boosts the temp another 20F or so on super cold days. Some folks keep their oil/gas boiler to add a extra boost on super cold days. The pellet boiler operates more efficiently on the warmer days and on the colder days you supplement. Operating costs are about the same as if you put in a larger pellet system sometimes even better.

Hard call on the damp basement there's no inexpensive fix for that.

A storage tank only works if its cold for one day then warms up. It does avoid short cycling if you have some zones that are small. That is usually what it is installed for in any application.

A PB105 would probably cost more to run then the existing system with something supplementing. Unfortunately the cost comes with a more complicated system.

The boiler had run it's course, it was leaking into the burn chamber. He has said that insulation is on the agenda, I believe his intention was to get the heating system somewhat in order, as he worked at getting the house sealed up. I'm not sure about the electric inline, last year the electric company whimsically doubles everyones bill without warning, but maybe a tankless propane might do the trick.

 

[crizpynutz]

Insulation is the obvious first step, but what are the windows and outside doors like in the house as well, in those old Victorians they can have some pretty awful results on heat.

Electric is likely not going to be the most cost efficient helper, but if he gets desperate....

 

[Ambient]

Insulation is the obvious first step, but what are the windows and outside doors like in the house as well, in those old Victorians they can have some pretty awful results on heat.

Electric is likely not going to be the most cost efficient helper, but if he gets desperate....

They had an Amish handyman do some renovations including new windows...vinyl. So it's better than before, but...

Sadly they Amish handyman installed a new chimney also, the chimney fell down, seems you need to tie it into the house and he forgot that step. That matter still hasn't resolved itself. So the quality of the window installs might be in question. Taking advantage of an 87 year old widow.

 

[crizpynutz]

They had an Amish handyman do some renovations including new windows...vinyl. So it's better than before, but...

Sadly they Amish handyman installed a new chimney also, the chimney fell down, seems you need to tie it into the house and he forgot that step. That matter still hasn't resolved itself. So the quality of the window installs might be in question. Taking advantage of an 87 year old widow.

Okay that just makes me mad now. It sounds like some new contractors need to be found who can be "trusted" and get some evaluations done before diving in and spending more money. Check the insulation, the quality of the window install, etc. and then formulate a plan on fixing things.

How long ago was that chimney F up done? Unacceptable. So very sorry for these troubles, that's just not right.

 

[Ambient]

Okay that just makes me mad now. It sounds like some new contractors need to be found who can be "trusted" and get some evaluations done before diving in and spending more money. Check the insulation, the quality of the window install, etc. and then formulate a plan on fixing things.

How long ago was that chimney F up done? Unacceptable. So very sorry for these troubles, that's just not right.

right after the new boiler was being installed. It fell down in the winter, the boiler contractor came over and put up a vent, as she was without heat. This was 2013/2014 heating season.


edit for additional note:
Fixed income often limits ability to overcome these moments in life. I'm happy to help him out as much as I can. Ultimately trying to save some limited cash ends in the loss of the perceived savings.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

I wouldn't recommend upgrading to a PB105 at this point because a) Harman is ending production of all its pellet-fired central-heating plants, including the PB105; b) There are more technically advanced pellet boilers out there than the Harmans; and c) It might be necessary to patronize the same dealer who sold your friend the Hydroflex. He shouldn't be rewarded for that. Anyone with half a clue should have recognized that the Hydroflex couldn't meet the demand of that big old house.

With friend's dad gone now, it may be time to think about going back to fossil fuel.

 

[Old Spartan]

Based on what you are saying about the house --- Heat loss is a minimum of 100K and quite likely as high as 150K at 100 delta T.

Couple of options to investigate

Do you know the BTU of the former boiler that provided sufficient heat ???

You could install in parallel a second boiler and step fire it. I would consider oil or gas for this unit and control both units with a two stage thermostat. If boiler one can not meet the load boiler two would come on line using the same radiation system. This is quite likely the least expensive fix. It would also offer back up heat in the event of one boiler failing or doing any pellet shut down for cleaning.

Do the exterior uninsulated walls have fire breaks in them ???

If no fire breaks or even with them actually the most obvious solution would be to use blown in cellulose to fill the cavities. Should develop an R of perhaps 14 in doing so in this type of construction. This is quite likely the most cost effective solution.

Other options are window replacement and closing off part of the home.

Short of canning the current boiler I think these are your options.

 

[Old Spartan]

My suggestions are based on a desire to have central rather than space heating as a solution.

I question whether a pellet space heater is a good option for someone of this ladies age,

 

[Ambient]

Based on what you are saying about the house --- Heat loss is a minimum of 100K and quite likely as high as 150K at 100 delta T.

Couple of options to investigate

Do you know the BTU of the former boiler that provided sufficient heat ???

You could install in parallel a second boiler and step fire it. I would consider oil or gas for this unit and control both units with a two stage thermostat. If boiler one can not meet the load boiler two would come on line using the same radiation system. This is quite likely the least expensive fix. It would also offer back up heat in the event of one boiler failing or doing any pellet shut down for cleaning.

Do the exterior uninsulated walls have fire breaks in them ???

If no fire breaks or even with them actually the most obvious solution would be to use blown in cellulose to fill the cavities. Should develop an R of perhaps 14 in doing so in this type of construction. This is quite likely the most cost effective solution.

Other options are window replacement and closing off part of the home.

Short of canning the current boiler I think these are your options.

No firebreaks so blown is a very good option, we have a contractor in the area that blows a sticky version, so it stays in place and wouldn't settle as much. Windows were redone, kind of. As for another boiler, it may be the option.


LOL "this lady's age" every time it snowed this winter she would shovel her driveway to get to her mailbox before eight AM. She still mows some of her own lawn, much to the dismay of her son and daughter in law, they ride their mower down and finish the yard. Spry comes to mind.

 

[moey]

I think they first and foremost she needs to get a central heating system. A elderly person relying on a pellet boiler is a bad idea even if sized to heat the entire house. Tie them in together and go from there. They make direct vent units so no need to rebuild the chimney.

 

[Old Spartan]

No firebreaks so blown is a very good option, we have a contractor in the area that blows a sticky version, so it stays in place and wouldn't settle as much. Windows were redone, kind of. As for another boiler, it may be the option.


LOL "this lady's age" every time it snowed this winter she would shovel her driveway to get to her mailbox before eight AM. She still mows some of her own lawn, much to the dismay of her son and daughter in law, they ride their mower down and finish the yard. Spry comes to mind.

She sounds like my grandmother ..... 104 years old and still lives in her home, gets about, and sharp as a tack.

We spend a day each week with her and suggested we take her to the senior center once or twice a week, She told us in no uncertain terms she was not interested in hanging out with a bunch of old people.

She still visits her brother, age 102, in Vermont for two weeks each summer.

Some of the elderly are as young as we are -

If the blown in is a financial option it may reduce the load to a point as high as 75 delta T (0 degrees outside 70 - 75 inside).

Find a GOOD heating contractor or fuel supplier and have them do a detailed heat load for this lady. Even if it costs a couple of bucks it will give you a baseline from which to explore various options and there likely cost inputs. When the load is calculated have them do one as is and also one with blown in insulation. Without this you are really shooting in the dark.

 

[bogieb]

She definitely needs some sort of central heating system, whether that is another boiler (if she can't afford new, sometimes there are decent used ones on CL - but she would probably need help knowing good from bad), or some other system, that could be up for debate. I would go for another boiler as she already has the lines run, and others on this forum believe they could be installed in-parallel, which would be a plus. If she gets sick, or goes on a trip, or can't find pellets, she needs a system that can keep pipes from freezing.

Upgrading insulation is always good, and fairly cheap.

She may qualify for financial help thru the local energy council (or energy supplier, or thru the state) for upgrading both insulation and heating.

 

[MadMax31]

I dare ask the basics... Circulator sized correctly, flow ( gpm ) correct? Any bare heat pipes can lose up to 5,000 btus in places you dont want it to lose it.... All lines completely purged of air? Typical fin-tube baseboard is good for 550 btus per foot at 180* at correct gpm.... Quick guess of total feet of baseboard and check with boiler btus and youll know right quick if your plumb-dickered...

 

[Old Spartan]

MadMax makes good points --- BUT -- based on the assertion that the former boiler handled the load the problem is most surely the current pellet unit is undersized.

When was involved in the trade MANY years back my rule of thumb for the construction as described was cubic feet times 7.5 - 10 for heat load. That was for discussion to give the homeowner a ballpark idea of where (s)he would be at and to gauge financial wherewithal, Before proceeding a detailed room by room load calculation was done to arrive at an accurate heat loss.

Would be interesting to know the BTU capacity of the former unit.

 

[SidecarFlip]

They had an Amish handyman do some renovations including new windows...vinyl. So it's better than before, but...

Sadly they Amish handyman installed a new chimney also, the chimney fell down, seems you need to tie it into the house and he forgot that step. That matter still hasn't resolved itself. So the quality of the window installs might be in question. Taking advantage of an 87 year old widow.

Far as I'm concerned, the only thing the Amish can be trusted to do is attempt to screw you on any financial deal.

 

[Ambient]

They're no different than any other group of folks.

 

[Ambient]

As far as the size and functionality of the hydronic system, I'm going to meet with him Friday and I will present all of these options, idea's and proposals. I'll see if I can assertain the information desired to promote this discussion further.

 

[chken]

Given the description of the house, I'd say the bottom end of the house size range would have been appropriate, the 1400sqft for the boiler.

Can she even install a 2nd boiler, without that chimney? Who's filling the pellet hopper?

Just knowing a little, I'd say insulate, check if there are any programs to help the elderly on FI pay for it, and get a used oil boiler to put in serial with the pellet boiler. That way if she can't someday fill the hopper, she has the oil boiler. Plus she's got to solve the damp basement issue.