Pellet stove over heating

[Motorboy1]

Ok so I need Help with Ideas to fix the 2 problems I have with this stove, both I'm pretty sure are heat related!

#1 solution the stove runs perfectly fine with both side covers taken off (gets more airflow to the back) but it's louder that way. doesn't look to good either!

The problems. Today I put the left side cover on, the one over by the blower motor,(exhaust) it took all day but eventually the motor over heated and shut off, the whole house filled with smoke and the stove turned off.
let it all cool down, took the side back off and turned it back on. Runs like a champ!

The other side is where the thermocouple is, If I put that side together, that over heats also turning off the stove!!

What can I do to help keep things cool back there? would more insulation help? to me it seams like radiant heat, I would think just insulating everything would not help. Eventually everything will heat soak again?

I could maybe add a fan to one of the sides too pull the hot air out but this thing didn't come that way so I shouldn't need too!

Help, I'm open to any suggestions

Thanks

 

[jtakeman]

Welcome motorboy1,

It would really help us if we knew what stove you have?

Also are you running this thing balls out full bore?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Name that stove (I have an idea who makes it).

Please post a picture of the the side where the convection fan is located.

 

[superchips]

How over loaded is the electrical circuit that the stove is plugged into?
Do the lights dim when the stove's fan starts?
Check the voltage at the outlet when the stove is running and when the stove is off. Post your results.
Most motors will shut down if the voltage can't hold at at least 110v.

 

[Czech]

I'm fighting this battle with my Baby Countryside, so spill Smokey! The motor thermal is cutting out, AES has been very good trouble shooting but I'm not pulling the comb fan until after the heating season. #3 does pretty good to keep up, and the quad is still the work horse. What stove OP?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

A number of stoves have an issue with sucking in already heated convection air this causes the heat extraction process to slow resulting in more heat build up in the exchanger and exhaust system. This can affect both blowers causing them to shut down leading to a final over temperature situation.

There are a number of stoves that have convection blowers that are undersized that also lead to this situation.

Also a dirty, non lubricated, or failing convection blower can cause it.

It is also possible that there is insufficient access through the stove's shell to provide proper air for the convection blower.

Then we have botched up tables in the controller causing the convection blower to not reach proper speed to keep up with the stove's burn.

It is also possible for there to be enough restriction in the venting or back pressure from wind to cause the temperature in the vent system to rise past the thermal shutdown temperature on the combustion blower.

Dirty cooling fans or motors on the blowers can also lead to this.

ETA: Is this enough to start with?

 

[jtakeman]

Czech, If your thermaling the motor make sure its got no dust bunnies, Hit it with compressed air. You could also try a cooling fan(computer box fan and a wall wort to power it) and cool id down some. A trick I had to do with my quad on balls out! They don't have enough air movement on most of these motors. Usually getting the bunnies helps, But added cooling ices the deal.

I betting you have a TEFC motor, Have a look at the newer cframe with an extra cooling fan. I bet it does wonders for this issue.

 

[Czech]

Nothing like Smokey's 'starters', thanks! Thanks too j. The motor is new this fall, but I will take a better look. It is an alcove install per reqs, so I only have 10"s either side and cannot open the doors all the way. It can wait 'til spring. I'm fiddling with the intake too, the quad guy in me likes it wide open because there is none on the quad and blow torch is good, but apparently that blows too much heat through this Baby stove. Working on the balance between good clean burn and choked down air.

 

[Don2222]

Nothing like Smokey's 'starters', thanks! Thanks too j. The motor is new this fall, but I will take a better look. It is an alcove install per reqs, so I only have 10"s either side and cannot open the doors all the way. It can wait 'til spring. I'm fiddling with the intake too, the quad guy in me likes it wide open because there is none on the quad and blow torch is good, but apparently that blows too much heat through this Baby stove. Working on the balance between good clean burn and choked down air.

Fasco blowers are what many stoves use. I have a couple and never had a problem!!

CSH has them for approx $100 bucks just match the specs and mounting holes like the one below and you cannot go wrong

(broken link removed to http://www.cshincorporated.com/product_info.php/products_id/298)

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well Don glad you are delighted with Fasco's stuff.

I was going to order some parts shortly anyway, so my first one is already in. Going to get some high temperature silicon rubber sheet material and a new combustion blower motor.

Plan on looking for a higher efficiency blower motor as well.

My combustion blower started howling like a banshee this morning and is now a candidate for bearing replacement. It became unreliable this afternoon so the stove is off.

Next up is a Grainger order, that will be in tonight.

I also am going to order a convection blower.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Nothing like Smokey's 'starters', thanks! Thanks too j. The motor is new this fall, but I will take a better look. It is an alcove install per reqs, so I only have 10"s either side and cannot open the doors all the way. It can wait 'til spring. I'm fiddling with the intake too, the quad guy in me likes it wide open because there is none on the quad and blow torch is good, but apparently that blows too much heat through this Baby stove. Working on the balance between good clean burn and choked down air.

Oh we can add to that list.

I think it is past time for a snack and a brew. Later folks.

 

[Motorboy1]

Welcome motorboy1,

It would really help us if we knew what stove you have?

Also are you running this thing balls out full bore?

Yea I knew that info would help but didn't have it handy at the time. Its a Blackwell P23. Not running balls out only on level 2. Not sure of voltage draw or anything but like I said it runs great with the sides off, no dimming or slow running even balls out its fine.

heres what it looks like.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Yuck, clean that convection blowers squirrel cage and check the other side where the motor is for a load of dust bunnies and the family dog that is missing. Make certain you clean out the small cooling fan that is attached to the motor and is inside the motor housing, also look for oil ports and oiling information on the motor makers plate, if there are oil ports oil the motor (should be two ports across the motor shell) usually it is SAE 20 Wt non detergent oil (but might be different) which is 3 in 1 oil in the blue and white can. Lubrication frequency is usually 2 drops in each port every 6 months. If the ports are opening down rotate the motor so the ports are pointing up. After oiling work the fan in both directions and if not free spinning add an additional drop in each port, continue until the fan spins freely.

ETA: I don't see much in the way of air slots in the shell.

 

[Motorboy1]

Yuck, clean that convection blowers squirrel cage and check the other side where the motor is for a load of dust bunnies and the family dog that is missing. Make certain you clean out the small cooling fan that is attached to the motor and is inside the motor housing, also look for oil ports and oiling information on the motor makers plate, if there are oil ports oil the motor (should be two ports across the motor shell) usually it is SAE 20 Wt non detergent oil (but might be different) which is 3 in 1 oil in the blue and white can. Lubrication frequency is usually 2 drops in each port every 6 months. If the ports are opening down rotate the motor so the ports are pointing up. After oiling work the fan in both directions and if not free spinning add an additional drop in each port, continue until the fan spins freely.

ETA: I don't see much in the way of air slots in the shell.

Ok I'll look into this, I didn't realize they had to be spotless they are kinda dirty machines. Hopefully I find lucky (the dog) he's been missing for weeks, family has been heart broken lol. Oh really never looked for oil ports, figured they would they would be oil less.
Yea there are no air slots in the case, never was, I think I'll probably have to make some to solve my issue.

See it's obvious I don't know much about this thing thats why I'm here for the help. thanks for it!

 

[imacman]

......really never looked for oil ports, figured they would they would be oil less......

You're looking for ones like these on the convection fan motor. If the yellow plugs are there, remove them before oiling. If no plugs, you might have to run a pipe cleaner up the oil ports to get old dirt & crud out before oiling:

 

[Motorboy1]

Great thank you, It's going to take me a couple days to get that done looks like I have to pull the motor out to check it out. Can't see anything with it in there.

 

[imacman]

......looks like I have to pull the motor out to check it out. Can't see anything with it in there.

You'll be able to check it out and clean everything better anyway.

BTW, get 3 in 1 oil in the Blue can for oiling the motors. The regular red can will do in a pinch, but the blue is made for electric motors. Hardware store or Graingers should carry it.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I know nothing about Breakwells, but the outlet of the combustion motor looks like it's just stuck into the galvanized pipe with a huge gap. Wish I could zoom in to look closer. Also there appear to be 2 90's or 45's right outside the stove which would put a bunch of back pressure on the blower, wouldn't it?

 

[Motorboy1]

I know nothing about Breakwells, but the outlet of the combustion motor looks like it's just stuck into the galvanized pipe with a huge gap. Wish I could zoom in to look closer. Also there appear to be 2 90's or 45's right outside the stove which would put a bunch of back pressure on the blower, wouldn't it?

No its a tight fight, Its in double wall pipe so thats why it looks like a big gap. Yea there are 45's just so it centers the stove in the opening, think it would help to move them further down the line or take them out all together?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The fan blades can tolerate a little dust but the part I'm most concerned about is the motor, its cooling fan, and its bushings etc. This can slow the fan down and reduce its ability to remove heat from the exchanger allowing it to rise etc...

The fact that there are very few air slots in the stoves shell also acts to limit air flow.

Also what tj was mentioning about the number of angles in the venting etc .. acts to slow the removal of heat from the stove this time it is the exhaust also causes the heat exchanger's temperature to increase over time.

Multiple 45 degree angles on horizontal are not good the combined evl is 10 twice that of them being vertical (actually with certain piping 12).

This manner of venting requires more cleanings to stop ash build up and restriction of the exhaust system. You also have to provide a rise in all venting of at least 1/4" per foot of length.

With the air intake the way it is on that stove both blowers are competing for what ever air gets into the shell.

Sometimes it is a number of small things that add up to cause what you see. That is why my starters list was so long, I could make it a lot longer.

 

[Motorboy1]

Comments in red below

The fan blades can tolerate a little dust but the part I'm most concerned about is the motor, its cooling fan, and its bushings etc. This can slow the fan down and reduce its ability to remove heat from the exchanger allowing it to rise etc...
Ok once it warms up alittle and I shut the stove off I will clean thoroughly and oil

The fact that there are very few air slots in the stoves shell also acts to limit air flow.
Yea I'm really thinking adding fans to the shell is going to solve my problem, but I know its just a band aid to the situation.
Also what tj was mentioning about the number of angles in the venting etc .. acts to slow the removal of heat from the stove this time it is the exhaust also causes the heat exchanger's temperature to increase over time.
Do you think move moving the bends to the back of the stove will help? Really like to keep the same location for the stove. (center of opening as well as the hole in the wall is center)
Multiple 45 degree angles on horizontal are not good the combined evl is 10 twice that of them being vertical (actually with certain piping 12).

This manner of venting requires more cleanings to stop ash build up and restriction of the exhaust system. You also have to provide a rise in all venting of at least 1/4" per foot of length.
Yea we try to keep it clean, It actually doesn't seem to build up to bad. It does rise the requirement, that part was was in the instructions.
With the air intake the way it is on that stove both blowers are competing for what ever air gets into the shell.

Sometimes it is a number of small things that add up to cause what you see. That is why my starters list was so long, I could make it a lot longer.
Agreed, I'm going to take care of as many things as possible and see how things go.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

where is all the ash coming from thats built up under the exhaust fan? shouldnt be ash back there like that unless its from pulling the blower out to clean it

 

[Motorboy1]

where is all the ash coming from thats built up under the exhaust fan? shouldnt be ash back there like that unless its from pulling the blower out to clean it

Yes thats from clean out, its not spitting out anywhere or anything just leftover mess. This weekend will be cleaning time. I'll make it spotless and oiled, update with new pics just to be sure its good. Then wait for more suggestions.

 

[Motorboy1]

Ok guys clean out happened today.

Question, is the oval hole near 6 o-clock the oil hole for this motor?

Exhaust blower fan before cleaning

After cleaning

Also turned the pipe around hoping it helps.

So did I do ok? anything else I could do to fix my overheating issue? I did put the left side cover back on because thats the side with the thermocouple and when that over heats at least it turns the stove off normal. So far so good. The other side is still off, (exhaust side) when that motor over heats and turns off the house fills with smoke. Not fun, and I'm not yet confident I have fixed the issues. Opinions please.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

On that vent what is after the elbow and is that end going through what looks like the rear of a fireplace going down hill or level? There must be a 1/4" per foot of rise. I can't really tell if it is down bubble or the angle the picture was taken from is making it seem that way. Down bubble bad increases restriction heap big amount back um up HOT exhaust gases.

ETA: What's that at about 7-8 o'clock on the rear of the combustion blower cavity?