Permits who has gone to get them for installs

[fespo]

The reason Im asking this because I went to village hall and talked to the building department today about my pellet stove install. I have NEVER ever had to get a permit before and i thought i better get one on this install. So I bring the owner manual like they ask. Im asking about the floor protection under the pellet stove, if there are any special requirement's. They had NO IDEA what was going on. They kept show me the requirement's for a fireplace, I kept saying no its a pellet stove, Oh a wood burner, No a pellet stove. They wanted me to have 16in front of the pellet stove just the same as a fireplace. I let them read the owner manual for the clearances but they could not understand it. They even tried to call Englanderstove's but said I should call and find out. They could not figure out what is safe as a pad for the stove.

I want to use granite under the stove because it will be in the living room. They where stuck on ( The protection should be U.L approved or equal, and should be large enough to provide a minimum of one inch (1) behind and four inches (4) on both sides of the stove.The clearance in front of the stove should be least six inches(6). This freestanding pellet unit will need a minimum of 31"x32" floor protector.)

So what Im geting at Does everyone have a problem like this when they went for there permit? I have never done this so what Im I doing wrong or what don't I understand. How do I work with the village on this?

Thanks Espo

 

[keyman512us]

Sounds like the village is behind the times somewhat...I would ask "elkinmeg" (a mechanical inspector his opinion on how to handle it). What is the local AHJD (Authority having jurisdiction)? Local, county, building dept. etc etc???
Some locales' have little clue...some are ridiculous...keep us informed...interested to hear how you make out with the permit process.

 

[Bob512]

Espo, I am in the same dilema. I kept telling them it is a pellet stove and gave them copies of the Quad manual. Then they said I can't run the ex. out the wall. I gave them the Dura-vent pellet stove pipe info and that seemed to help. They keep mixing it up with wood stove info. also. Good luck educating them, Quick :coolsmirk:

 

[jtp10181]

We pull permits for all our "retail" jobs unless the homeowner has one or they are not in a town that needs one. Basically... the inspector reads the manual and looks for important things that could cause people to die or houses to burn down, like clearances, and checks the install. They pretty much trust us to do our job correctly and safe. Most of the inspectors around here don't know anything about fireplaces. There are no codes written for fireplaces, all the codes just say that you must follow the manufacturer instructions.

 

[elkimmeg]

If you claim ther are no codes written then you just admitted having not opened the code book since 1993 your advice was right on till this statement .I suggest you purchase the Hearth Handbook or 2003 / or 2006 IBC codes especially the mechanical ones and also update your NFPA 211 to 2003/ 2006. At the enf of the solid fuel burning chapter is refference to pellet stove installations. As mentiioned before follow your manufacture specs all code officials should except installations recomended and approved by your manufacture spoecs. Just like any profession, some try to stay on top of their business other coast their way threw life

 

[jtp10181]

Oh yes... I know about the national codes and what you mentioned, I actually was just looking at it recently. I was thinking about local codes when I said that, sorry. All of the manuals for the fireplaces we install pretty much have the excact same info as the code book in the install manual so we never really have to worry about the actual code book.

 

[HarryBack]

yep, some inspectors just figure its a woodburning unit, therefore, the same as a wood stove.....NOT. Be careful, also, since some more backwards inspectors wont even consider NFPA211 as a source....just the one and only code bible they own, and even there alot is open to argument. Pellet stove....if its listed, ya go with the manual and mfg's specs, like Elk says. Unfortunately, usually you arent gonna win a Pi&&ing contest with the inspector.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

The reason Im asking this because I went to village hall and talked to the building department today about my pellet stove install. I have NEVER ever had to get a permit before and i thought i better get one on this install. So I bring the owner manual like they ask. Im asking about the floor protection under the pellet stove, if there are any special requirement's. They had NO IDEA what was going on. They kept show me the requirement's for a fireplace, I kept saying no its a pellet stove, Oh a wood burner, No a pellet stove. They wanted me to have 16in front of the pellet stove just the same as a fireplace. I let them read the owner manual for the clearances but they could not understand it. They even tried to call Englanderstove's but said I should call and find out. They could not figure out what is safe as a pad for the stove.

I want to use granite under the stove because it will be in the living room. They where stuck on ( The protection should be U.L approved or equal, and should be large enough to provide a minimum of one inch (1) behind and four inches (4) on both sides of the stove.The clearance in front of the stove should be least six inches(6). This freestanding pellet unit will need a minimum of 31"x32" floor protector.)

So what Im geting at Does everyone have a problem like this when they went for there permit? I have never done this so what Im I doing wrong or what don't I understand. How do I work with the village on this?

Thanks Espo

sounds like you are quoting the correct dimentions for the floor protection with proper measurements around the unit. guess tehy havent seen a pellet stove before, as for the granite you wish to set the unit on , UL listed floor protectos have an "R" factor of 2 or higher, essentially you would have to detrmine the thickness of the granite which would give that high an r factor to meet the "ul isted or equivalent" specification. let me know if you continue to have problems , or give me a call at 800-245-6489 , im in my office from 8-5 eastern M-F i'll try to help as much as i can

mike esw

 

[Rhone]

I got a permit. In short your manual overrides code so, if code wants 16" in front and your manual says you only need 6" the inspector has to follow what your manual says. As long as you've got 6" or more you're all set. The reason being, that your unit was tested under extreme conditions and the testing lab found that 6" in front is plenty of safety clearance. If your manual doesn't list what the clearance can be, then it falls back to what default code says. For example, when buying a wood burning insert if the inserts manual doesn't say clearance in front, you have to fall back to code which says 16". Your manual may be more strict than code, almost all large wood burning inserts (I know you have pellet but I know little about them) mine said I have to have 18" clearance in front of the loading door but code says I only need 16". I called them up and they told me my insert was tested and found 16" to be inadequate protection and that my unit won't pass inspection unless I have 18".

As long as your manual states clearances to combustibles it's the one you need to follow. More is always better.

 

[Bob512]

I understand the safety issues, and am more worried about safety than they are. They keep telling me the 2ft. , 10ft. rule. That I have to go 2 ft. above any roof line within 10 ft. The alcove that I am putting my pellet stove in doesn't meet that because of the 3 different roof lines. I want to go out the wall but they say I am within 4 feet of a window. My stove guy said to go up through the sofit and that more than meets what quad wants in there manual. The inspector doesn't want me to go through the sofit because of the 10 ft rule. I keep telling him it's a pellet stove. He is nice, but he has a short fuse and you have to walk on egg shells around him. Maybe I will have it hooked up for next years heating season! Quick :coolmad:

 

[FuzzyOne]

My town requires a permit for everything. The fire inspector was actually very nice to deal with surprisingly. I met with him twice before I even handed the permit in so we were on the same page. They were given a chimney certification and two copies of my owners manual for my insert. He said they required that I meet all the specs listed in the manual.

The day of the final inspection, an 18 year old kid shows up (ok, he looked 18) and only checked to make sure the liner was attached to the insert. No tape measure was used to check clearances. He also checked to make sure my CO alarms were mounted in the bedroom areas.

An educated consumer/user is better than a town inspector in my opinion. I knew I met the requirements before he walked through the door, but without the final approval sticker, it means nothing.

 

[elkimmeg]

An educated consumer/user is better than a town inspector in my opinion.

Ok I'll bite here. Care to match your educated comsumer knowledge with me?

Ok I give you an easy question give me the criteria governing the correct size Bath fan, then equate that to the size needed. Since this is a hearth forum, please tell me the relationship of a frire place opening to the flue vollume requirements? Just to get the ball rolling here.

No tape measure was used to check clearances.

The only time I use a take measure is to prove a point where I suspect issues. Did it ever occure to you one can size up distances by comparison

I count bricks. Chimney height I count rows of bricks I do not need to climb a ladder to figure out the heights. I can also count shingles on the roof and figure out the 3/ 10 /2 rule

Then there is the ability after many years of being in the construction business,, that I have taken my fair share of measurements. I think I have a good handle on judging distances without a ruler. The rules comes out when I suspect a distance short of required ,only to confirm what my eyes have already told me.

 

[FuzzyOne]

Wow, it took a whole 2 hours for you to reply as I knew you would Elk. ;-) I'll explain my statement very easily. As an educated consumer/user, I read everything I can about a particular subject and the product I eventually purchase. I found out the answers to all my questions either from the manual, the dealers, or the manufacturer. The inspectors in this area, as stated, use the manual for guidance. I thus knew what was required for my install. A homeowner cannot rely on the "average" part time inspector for determining what is right and what is wrong. I have learned this from living in 3 towns and dealing with numerous plumbing, electrical, building and fire inspectors. I have been failed for projects on 3 occasions and each time the contractor was right in what he was doing and I had to provide documentation supplied to me from the contractor to educate the inspector in each case they came back for the "reinspection" to get my little approval tag.

So, when I stated an educated consumer, I meant someone that did all their homework. There is no way that inspector in my case could see that I met the frontal clearance with a half inch to spare with the way my insert sits on the hearth. Even my installer had to pull out a tape to confirm the distance. There is also no way he read the requirements of the install of the liner and insert. I did, because I educated myself. On a side note, I had to have a backflow preventer reinspected. This was the same time I was scheduling the install for my insert. I asked the plumbing official is he knew anything related to fire codes as I wanted to ask a few questions, namely about the clearances. He told me he just completed his schooling and was "certified" to perform such inspections. After a few minutes of conversation, he advised me that if I did not meet the proper clearance to not let the inspector doing the insert inspection know as "they probably wouldn't notice anyway". That's professional service at it's best.

As for the size v. volume question, I'll take a stab....If the flue is too small then it cannot remove the volume of air that enters the fireplace.

Now, for your question relating to a bath fan, when I install one and research the requirements to meet proper code.....I'll answer it.

Keep up the good work you do Elk. I wish more inspectors were like you.

 

[elkimmeg]

to help you out here a bath fn must have the capacity of being able to exchange the entire batroom vollume one time every 12.5 minutes Since I usually do not carry a slide rule around or
calculator so I developed a rule otf thumb for every sq ft in an 8" ceiling bath the fan capacity has to move one CFM You will not find it in a code book but experience and using if for years works very close to code enough that I can make a snap decision with out measuring the room I count the pannels of plywood to judge the sq footage
Oh BTW I am part time paid per inspection $30, which Includes my own vechicle for transportation.

 

[FuzzyOne]

Oh BTW I am part time paid per inspection $30, which Includes my own vechicle for transportation.

So what does the township you work for charge for a permit (liner and insert)? As I recall, mine was a little over $100. I'm not sure if our inspectors are paid per inspection or an hourly rate. I do know there aren't enough of them for my developing area, which equates to less than thorough inspections as I mentioned previously. I think this is the norm for most areas and why a consumer should educate themselves with a purchase and install of a stove/insert.

 

[webbie]

Obviously many inspectors and building depts are not doing their job. The problem then becomes that you cannot have the blind following the blind. So the only answer is that the customer must himself become informed in the proper way to do things.

It's not supposed to be this way, but guys like Elk are an exception, not the rule. The rest run the gamut from completely clueless to completely informed....even if they don't know anything, some have the common sense to handle the situation by reading the manual and lit you give them and then using their construction experience to oversee the job.