pipe Q changing from top exit to rear exit stove

[motoguy]

We've recently moved into our new house. It's 3600 sq ft, walkout basement, propane furnace. In an attempt to mitigate winter heating propane costs, the previous owner installed an Avalon Arbor wood stove:

(broken image removed)

This unit is installed in the walk out basement, next to an exterior concrete wall. The pipe runs vertical for 3-4 feet, 90's horizontal, and exits through a thimble in the poured foundation wall (exit thimble is approx 7' up on wall...it's above head height, and I'm 5'10"). It then takes another 90 and runs up the SS chimney (which is completely external to the home). The pipe is Metal-Fab brand double wall.

While this is a neat little stove, it's abilities leave me wanting. The stove is rated for "up to" 2000 sq feet (we do have the temp controlled blower on it). The floor of the upstairs level is now noticeably warmer (wood floor), and I think the furnace is cycling less (it would have to be).

Which brings me to, the King Circulator. My parents have given this to me. This is the unit I grew up with, in my parents (approx 1400 sq ft) home. This thing put out ridiculous heat in that house. I remember it being, literally, 92 in there during the winter on one particular day. We'd open the front and back door to cool down sometimes. lol

So, I have it in my head that the King puts out more heat than the Arbor. I'm sure this is skewed by the King heating a 1400 sq ft home, and the Arbor attempting to heat 3600 sq ft. The King does have a significantly larger fire box, which I assume to mean it will be able to hold more, burn longer, and put out more overall heat than the Arbor.

If my above assumptions are correct, I'd like to replace the Arbor with the King. The arbor is a top exhaust unit, and the King is a rear exhaust. In order to hook up the King, I'd have to add another 90 (from stove exhaust to existing vertical pipe, when then turns horizontal through the concrete wall, then vertical outside). I'm wondering how badly this is going to hinder the stove. The arbor seems to have good draft, as I can open the top loading door (when a fire is burning) with little/no smoke intrusion into the room. I can hear the 'whoosh' of air being pulled through the unit when I crack the door. The system seems to have good draft at this point, and I'm wondering if the 3rd 90 in the system will kill it. I don't have the space to go with a pair of 45's (stove exit, 45 up, 45 through hole in wall).

In addition, the section of pipe attached to the Arbor (top exhaust) has holes around the base. I'm assuming this is for a venturi effect of some sort on this double walled pipe. If I put a 90 on the rear-exit King stove, I'll have to run the 90 to this first section. I'm not sure if that will cause an issue with those holes/venturi/air flow.

I'd love to have some input on this. I don't have any photos of my specific items or setup at this time, but I'll be able to get some tomorrow evening when I return home.

Will a 3rd 90 in the system render it worthless? If not worthless, will it decrease the efficiency of the King such that I'm better off just keeping/using the Arbor? Any suggestions on ways to make this work ok? Thanks in advance!

 

[webby3650]

I really think you will not be happier with the King. You have a huge house and trying to heat it from the basement is almost impossible with any stove. The Arbor is a very efficient heater, over 2x as effiecent as the King.

 

[begreen]

The stove is an area heater, so it doesn't really sound like either stove is a great solution.

Tell us more about the house design, stove location and how the heat gets upstairs. Are the basement walls fully insulated?

 

[motoguy]

I don't plan on replacing the propane with a stove. I'd just like to supplement (reduce propane costs) as much as possible. I'm all about cost effectiveness; I'd spend a little to have a disproportionate benefit, but much beyond that and I'll just wait to go 'whole hog'. (I have considered going with a full replacement, but I'm thinking about an outside wood boiler at that point.) I grew up with my parents using wood heat (the King), and frankly...I like it. I enjoy the cutting, the burning, the smell, the crackle, etc. Short of diving in full-bore (OWB, etc), I'd like to "make the most with what I have". If I had a good way to go wood-only, I would. I wanted to "try out" the stove for a season or two before deciding if we want to jump in all the way. We plan on living here 20 years or more. We have 3 young kids, and outgrew our 1200sq ft place. This one is exactly 3x the size, and it's GREAT to have some room. Except for the heating/cooling part.

Basement and upper floor have same footprint. Approx 1800 sq ft per floor. There is stairway centrally located, along the north "dirt side" wall, which goes upstairs. Basement walls which are not concrete (full south wall, portions of east/west walls) are fully insulated. Several large windows along the southern wall.

Here's a view of the "high" side. We are looking at the north face of the house. the central, square window is in the stairwell.

and the "low side" (looking at the south facing wall). Stove is located to the far right. External stack on east wall is hidden behind the deck in this photo.

The basement is divided by a central, load-bearing wall running east/west. The south (window) side of the basement is finished (except for ceiling), and is a single, open room. The north (concrete) side is unfinished, and consists of 2 separate "concrete rooms", with the stairwell between them.

In central portion of basement, looking east towards stove:

From the "other" side of the divider wall (the door visible in photo above and below is the same door). The stairwell upstairs would be to your back in the photo below.

West view from central-ish location in basement, on finished side of central wall. We will eventually build a bedroom along this western most wall, with a bathroom in the "concrete" room on the other side of the divider.

West view of unfinished side of the wall. Back is against the stairwell in the below photo. There will eventually be a bathroom in here, adjacent to the (eventual) bedroom. the framed wall on the right side of the photo is actually support for the stairwell. We're almost under the stairs here.

Interior is a very open design, with high ceiling (you know...tons of wasted space to heat). Photos below are now upstairs.

Living room (centrally located) facing south:

pivoting 180, and taking a photo of the other direction (north):

Stairwell, visible in the above photo, which leads downstairs. The 3rd photo up (empty concrete room) was taken in essentially this same spot, but downstairs.

Pivot 90 degrees, looking east. Stairwell is to our immediate left. Stove is directly below the master bedroom, the door the right at the end of the hallway. Door 1/2 way down to the right is the kitchen, 1/2 way down to the left is the utility room.

Kitchen, looking towards the area where the above photo was taken. Door exiting the kitchen, crossing hallway, into utility room. Utility room is above the concrete room in the basement, with all the woodworking equipment.

Between kitchen sink and stove, taking a photo towards the corner where the above photo was taken:

Bedroom. The bed is sitting directly above the wood stove:

Pivot 180, and there's a bathroom and walk in closet behind us. First "section" has jacuzzi tub and sink, 2nd "section" is toilet/shower, 3rd "section" is walk-in closet. This is all directly above the concrete room with all the woodworking equipment.:

View from hallway looking into utility room. This room is above the concrete room with the woodworking equipment. The kitchen is in the center-south of the house, utility room center-north, bedroom east end-south, bathroom east end-north.

Moving to the west end of the house, we have two rooms with a bathroom centrally located between them. This is the west end, north room. This bedroom is directly above the "empty" concrete room in the basement. Specifically, the recessed wood shelving in the concrete room.

And the last bedroom. Located west end of house, south side. This is above the "finished" portion of the basement, opposite of the stove:

Those are not my photos, but the photos ripped from the realtor's ad. Hopefully that gives an idea of the interior layout, construction, and locations relative to each other.

I realize we're far beyond the capability of either of the stoves I have. I'm just looking to maximize the savings on propane...and...frankly...I like to tinker.

 

[begreen]

The raw concrete wall on the north side will suck heat like a magnet. One option is to leave the Arbor there and put in another stove on the main floor. Another might be to put a wood furnace in the unfinished part and duct it to upstairs and the the basement bedroom.

 

[motoguy]

The raw concrete wall on the north side will suck heat like a magnet. One option is to leave the Arbor there and put in another stove on the main floor. Another might be to put a wood furnace in the unfinished part and duct it to upstairs and the the basement bedroom.

There is a gas stove in the living room at the moment. Our long term plans involve removing portion of a wall, and turning part of the dead-attic space above the small, west-end rooms, into a loft. This house isn't as bad as most that I call "turtle roof houses", but there's still a lot of "wasted" space in the attic on either end of the house. The ceiling in the living room goes up to the rafters, obviously. At the time we create the loft would be a possible time to install an upstairs stove also. I like that idea, and hadn't even considered it.

Regarding the furnace: I have considered it. In the photo below, the propane furnace is directly to our right, in this room. It would be easy to plumb into the chamber. My parents had a Clayton wood furnace in one of their later homes, and that thing ATE wood in the winter. Then again, the location of that furnace was questionable, and as such, it didn't perform very well. Should I go all the way, I'm still on the fence about IWB vs OWB, leaning towards OWB. Either of those would be a couple of years away, though.

 

[motoguy]

I really think you will not be happier with the King. You have a huge house and trying to heat it from the basement is almost impossible with any stove. The Arbor is a very efficient heater, over 2x as effiecent as the King.

If the Arbor is already 2x as efficient as the King (assuming that's accurate, I have no idea), and considering the inefficiency introduced by a 3rd elbow (to get the King installed), it sounds like the Arbor should stay put (small box or not). I didn't realize this little stove would be more efficient. If my understanding is correct, the King may put out more heat (due to larger box size), but I'll burn more wood to get the same BTU output as the Arbor. Is that correct?

 

[webby3650]

Kings make big heat for short periods of time. They are nothing more than a barrel stove with a shroud around it. It'll gobble wood down like you won't believe!
Do you have the owners manual for that arbor? It can be tricky to operate properly.

 

[motoguy]

I do have the owner's manual, but I just kind of skimmed it to check the controls for the stove. My woodburning experience comes from my childhood experience with the King. I've been burning the Arbor similarly, with mixed results. Reading more, I'm not sure I've had the Arbor working efficiently. I'm searching for some threads on proper operation of the Arbor, and we'll see if I can get better results. Sounds like this unit will require a different method of burning, vs the King that I was used to.

In the meantime, I think we're just going to set the King aside for now, and use it in my shop building when it's built. Thanks for all the info!

ETA: Dang...reading the reviews on the Arbor/Leyden is leaving me less than hopeful! Sounds like these are known problematic units, which have now been discontinued. Maybe I better keep the 'ol King around as a backup, after all!

 

[begreen]

The Arbor will run very differently than the King. Be sure you have fully seasoned wood.

 

[motoguy]

First winter with the Arbor went well. "Well", meaning "we like and wish to continue to use wood heat, but want something a little better suited to the purpose". I'm currently in discussion with Daryl Lamppa, regarding the viability of a VF100 for our place. I'm clearing a lot of trees/brush, so we'll have lots of wood to burn, just from this clearing. We may have to buy wood for this winter as well, as this stuff may be too green, but we'll see. After the first winter of smoking the house up, timing burns, frequent refilling, needing short logs, etc, the wife is thrilled at the idea of "fill it and forget it" for 8-12 hours at a time.

 

[moresnow]

Just adding my 2 cents here. I returned to burning wood last year as well. I grew up with two fireplaces in my parents house. Sounds like we had some similiar challenges and a somewhat interesting learning curve last winter! I had to laugh at the "needing short logs" as I am a proud owner of a nice pile that won't fit in my stove. Oops.
I did come out of burning season excited to get my wood supply ready for the next go around. Congrats on the nice home. Is a add on to the exsisting propane furnace a option? Seems it would distribute your wood heat better. Then you could burn the small stove for fun now and then. Best of luck.

 

[motoguy]

Yeah, we purchased some wood, and also used some that my dad had cut off of his place. It was about 4" too long. LOL I ended up dragging out a table saw, and just cutting it all in half.

I've considered installing the VF in the concrete room containing the propane furnace. The upside would be:

1) about 8' less ductwork (and no 90's) going to the furnace plenum.
2) leaves "decorative" stove in living area, if we want to burn in there.

The downsides are:

1) new hole through foundation/stovepipe up side of house
2) carrying wood through house (if the VF is installed where the existing stove is located, I plan to wall off a section, add an exterior door, making a "furnace room" which does not require carrying wood through the living space. It will also have an interior door, so we don't have to venture outside to enter the furnace room)
3) that's my "man cave". RC Planes will be hanging on the ceiling, fumes from adhesives, possibly reloading ammo in there, etc. I don't want to damage anything, -and- I don't want it to be so hot I'm not comfortable working in there.

 

[begreen]

If it were me I would get a stove for the main floor that I knew was going to do the job well for many years. Then, in October, during peak season I would sell the Arbor and the King.

 

[motoguy]

If it were me I would get a stove for the main floor that I knew was going to do the job well for many years. Then, in October, during peak season I would sell the Arbor and the King.

Spoke with my wife last year about leaving the small stove downstairs, and putting another upstairs. Momma says no-go on another wood stove. She says she's happy to look at the flame in the decorative propane fireplace, and there aren't any bugs or dirt with it!

She is, on the other hand, super excited about the idea of the VF. Specifically, the idea of opening the door, putting in wood, closing the door, and being done. The voodoo of quickly getting the Arbor up to temp, watching the temps for secondary burn, then shutting down to maximize burn time (but not let temps get to low), juggling controls, etc...she wants nothing to do with it.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you have a plan for a warm house and a happy wife. Keep us posted on how the Kuuma works out for you.

 

[motoguy]

Well, the Kuuma is crated up and headed my way! I'm super excited! Now, I'm thinking about installation. I'm going to remove the existing stove, and the Kuuma will go there. I'll have someone run ducting to the existing plenum from the Kuuma. I have the water coil on the Kuuma as well, so I'm going to be looking for some inop 80-100gal water heaters to use as storage/warming tanks.

I'm going to pull up the carpet, and create a small furnace room for the Kuuma. It'll have an interior entrance, and I'm going to add an exterior door as well. The window closest the existing stove will be moved, as the new wall will bisect it. I then plan on adding 1/4" (or thinnest I can get) concrete board to the interior of the room, on the wooden surfaces. I'd like to reduce the risk of fire as much as possible.

We'll have to buy our wood this winter, as we didn't cut/split any in time to season. I've got several cord stacked and drying for next winter, though (and several more I need to get home and stacked). I can't wait to see how this thing works (and get our heating "off the bottle", so to speak).

 

[begreen]

Congratulations. I suggest starting a new thread in the boiler room for the Kuuma. That will get you more targeted responses from Kuuma and other wood furnace owners.

FWIW I'm not a big fan of a tight enclosure for a hot wood furnace. At a minimum, if creating a furnace room be sure to check code for clearances and allow enough room for proper servicing. I'd also check with Kuuma for any caveats and clearances not only for the unit but for the ducting.

 

[motoguy]

FWIW I'm not a big fan of a tight enclosure for a hot wood furnace. At a minimum, if creating a furnace room be sure to check code for clearances and allow enough room for proper servicing. I'd also check with Kuuma for any caveats and clearances not only for the unit but for the ducting.

This room won't be too "tight". It's about 15' wide, and I'll have "walking room" on either side of the Kuuma for clearance (at least 24" or so). With the Kuuma being 24" wide, I figure the room may end up as 15'x8' or so. I'll have a grate above the interior door for return airflow. We should be fine on ductwork as well, but I'll have a pro handle that aspect of the install.

Thanks for the tip on the boiler subforum. I'll look over there.