Poor woodstove draft

[Jack Maggs]

Hello all. I'm new here and live in northern Maine; a town with no name. It is considered a Township and/or Plantation. I have a small place 1100 sq. feet and try to heat it with an Englander 13nc. Not a very good stove for northern Maine... as at temps under 15 degrees it struggles. And we frequently get temps of minus 0 degrees. It was minus 32 degrees one night last week.

But the problem is my poor draft. Everytime I open the stove, no matter what, high temps, windy days ...I get a bunch of smoke in my house; or rather in the large stove room which is 22'X20'. I have had one occasion where the smoke set off the smoke alarm at the other end of the house. I use a metal chimney...maybe 12-13 feet long and I did get good draft early in the heating season. I have DVL pipe... with the first short transition section dampered. This new damper from "Venting Pipes Inc" failed the second week I used it. It is the end away from the handle that melted or just broke off and rendered the damper useless. I fear the damper plate may have slipped off it's stem (with the damage) and could be covering the flue exhaust. This is only a guess...based on the fact that I did get proper draft before the damper failed. I keep the damper handle in the full open position, but cannot say whether the damper is in a vertcal postion. It does feel like the plate is still attached to the stem as when I move the handle there is weight there.

I tried to lift the expandable DVL pipe by removing the pipe screws to remove the damper...but the pipe would not budge. So I am left with a smokey room.

In the Spring when I clean my chimney I shall be able to remove the burn tubes and fire resistant baffle and perhaps try to remove the damper plate that way...If that method fails because the stove collar is too small to pull the damper plate into the stove area....then I may try to pull the damper plate out through the top of the chimney by means of line and/or hook...

Having installed a damper may have effected my first seasons burning qualities...But to be honest, I can't say if the draft plate is in any other than a verticle postion...Only that I have terrible draft in all weathers...

Any comments/ observations would be appreciated

Thanks Jack

 

[weezer4117]

first off welcome to the forum!!

there isnt really much to comment on here! MAKE SURE THERE IS NOTHING IN THAT CHIMNEY BEFORE YOU LIGHT ANOTHER FIRE what kind of stove is it? does the stove have a damper on it?? is the chimney on the outside of the house? pics?

 

[edthedawg]

Englander 13nc. ...I get a bunch of smoke in my house. ... I use a metal chimney...maybe 12-13 feet long...

...damper failed the second week I used it.

...cannot say whether the damper is in a vertcal postion.

...Having installed a damper may have effected my first seasons burning qualities...

...Any comments/ observations would be appreciated

You... actually use this? Like, there's a fire burning in it right now?

And... it's HOW far to the nearest actual Fire Department? You Mainah's - y'all are a brave, brazen bunch. (My stepfather was born and raised in North Sullivan, ME)

Seriously? You need to get up there and figure out wtf is going on. You have a system you cannot control. Of course the damper is blocking the flue - the thing "melted" and instantly changed your performance. Anything else would be one heckuva coincidence.

I doubt saying "stop burning!" would get you to stop - but if nothing else, it sounds like you have yourself quite the little smoke and creosote factory going there, since you can't run the flue open ever. If you can shut down for a day and pull the plate out, or look down from above - find some way to figure out what's happening - maybe reach a long pole down and try to shove the damper open and just leave it - better to be stuck open than stuck closed...

Good luck, dude...

 

[oconnor]

Ed is right - if you have a melted anything on your stove, you had it way too hot at one point and need to take it apart and look it over.

Are you sure it melted, or did it creosote up and jamb?

In the end, waiting for spring is a recipe for a chimney fire - you have poor draft, therefore your wood will burn poorly and incompletely, and you will get creosote build up, and the wood will burn worse from poorer draft, cycle repeats until you fill the house with CO or the build up ignites and overheats the whole unit - best case - or burns the house down - worst case.

That is not a good plan for keeping warm , so take the time and tear it apart.

 

[Jack Maggs]

Ed and O'Conneer are right( sorry if I mis-spelled your names) but I must say I spent all my buttons on this new stove, hearth, chimney system., attic insulation..and 4 cord of wood that has now turned into 5 cord...
Step back......and ask....if this guy has already burned 4 cord of wood so far this winter....Perhaps this stove is not starving for for a draft...I did say I have an 1100 sq. ft. home with 38R ceiling insulation.....

I do have 2 smoke and 1 carbon monoxide detectors...and 4 egress routes....so why worry? Life is too short... I also have many windows that could provide exit if necessary...If fate decides it should burn ...then let the MF burn.
Jack
.

 

[oconnor]

The smoke in the house tells me that your fire is either not hot enough to create enough draft - which makes me think about damp wood - or the flue is blocked and can't vent even if the fire is hot.

But with a stuck/melted damper in there - all I can recommend is take it apart. If it won't come apart, then something is wrong,

I hope fate doesn't decide to let the house burn.... I recommend you not help it by lighting a fire

 

[firefighterjake]

First off, welcome to hearth.com.

Second, do tell which Plantation or Township you're in . . . just curious.

I'm not very smart so I'm probably missing this . . . I've always heard LVL referenced as to the laminated veneer lumber so I'm a bit curious as to what LVL pipe is . . . is this a brand name or a special type of pipe?

I'm also not an expert on drafts, but 12-13 feet seems a bit short (not too short, but a bit short) which can affect drafts . . . but then again you said you had a good draft earlier this heating season.

From what I've seen and read a smoking stove (well smoke coming out of the door of an open stove) usually is a draft issue . . . . either not enough pipe, weather phenomenon or a full or partial blockage from creosote (or perhaps a damper).

You indicate that this problem seemed to have developed shortly after the damper incident (incidentally why the damper . . . most folks these days seem to add dampers when there is a need to cut down on over drafts (although some folks have them for nostalgia sakes and the ability to cut off the draft for added control). Now I'm not real smart, and there is always a chance that something funky may be going on, but generally I'm a believer in the "If it smells like a dog, looks like a dog, sounds like a dog, and feels like a dog . . . it's probably a dog" philosophy . . . meaning that if everything was hunky dory until the damper incident I think I would consider that the most likely suspect as to why I was having issues with smoke and I would take the time to correct that problem.

Another question is to why the damper would fail. You mention melting . . . Holy Cow . . . either the damper was faulty or you had the heat way, way too hot. I am hoping and assuming you have a thermometer for the stove/flue . . . if not it may be a good investment. Another possible reason for failure . . . as mentioned . . . would be creosote jamming up the damper.

Having working smoke detectors (hopefully 10 years old or less) and a CO detector is good . . . as is having an evacuation plan in place . . . but I am of the mind that it is far, far better to prevent any possible future problems rather than having the equipment and plan in place to deal with the emergency if and when it happens (not that this isn't also a good idea . . . it's just better to prevent the problem from occurring in the first place.)

If I was me . . . and I am me . . . I would take the time to set things up proper . . . meaning I would make sure the flue is clean and find out what's going on with the damper. Heck, maybe there isn't a real serious safety problem (for the record I would be concerned about the safety aspect though), but if for nothing else I would get annoyed pretty quickly with having smoke fill my house every time I loaded the woodstove.

 

[edthedawg]

Ed and O'Conneer are right( sorry if I mis-spelled your names) but I must say I spent all my buttons on this new stove, hearth, chimney system., attic insulation..and 4 cord of wood that has now turned into 5 cord...
Step back......and ask....if this guy has already burned 4 cord of wood so far this winter....Perhaps this stove is not starving for for a draft...I did say I have an 1100 sq. ft. home with 38R ceiling insulation.....

I do have 2 smoke and 1 carbon monoxide detectors...and 4 egress routes....so why worry? Life is too short... I also have many windows that could provide exit if necessary...If fate decides it should burn ...then let the MF burn.
Jack
.

Ok I think you just said oconnor and I agreed on something. Now I really question your judgement

Seriously - you clearly are burning your wood and heating your house - no doubt about it. 4 cords in one winter is kinda a lot for a small, well insulated house, but you're a heckuva lot colder up there than we are. And I'm not surprised it's heating the house well. But you do have smoke billowing out when you open the door - this same thing happens to me every time if I forget to open my damper up. I open the damper and the smoke sucks right back in and stops billowing out. So call me nuts, but I say open damper = more draft = no smoke in house.

There was a thread the other day about a new Equinox install, and the user (jlow) ran undamped a week or so, than put in a damper and ran it near closed all the time for about another week. Then suddenly had liquid creosote pouring from every seam in his exhaust piping. So big correlation there: damper closed too much = hot fire = creosote in the flue.

His fix? Same as every bit of conventional wisdom I've read here: Run it wide open every day for 15-20 minutes to burn that crap out.

You appear to not have the ability to do that. So my ACME Crystal Ball (TM) is telling me you're gunking up everything north of the stuck damper w/ creosote. It would be really interesting to see what temps you are getting a few feet up from your artificially-induced blockage. Do you have a probe or surface temp gage you can use for such a measurement?

I wish you luck dude - and please update us when you do get up there or poke your head up from underneath - learning about this situation will help us all to better understand what happens in situations like this.

 

[Jack Maggs]

Sorry, I think I meant to indicate that I have double wall stove pipe...It might be referred to as DVL....certainty not LVL, which is in fact...Laminated Veneer Lumber...I did try to slide the expandable stove pipe up just after I noticed the damper handle afloat....which was only a few weeks after I started burning. All the parts were new, but I couldn't get enough purchase on the pipe to move it and was reluctant to try to pry off the stove itself. I do think the damper plate is still attached to what is left of it's spindle...as I can feel it's weight when I gingerly move the handle.

I'm sure you must be right in saying that the damper was defective and just failed rather than having the end of the spindle melt. I do have a probe thermometer and moniter the temperature of my burns...burning hot a few times a day. I usually check the chimney from the roof about once a month and there is no sign of creosote buildup...other than the usual film that forms on the pipe from burning.

My wood is dry in the 20% range...almost seems too dry, except for this 5th cord I bought. It's off the meter which goes to 35%. I did pay $180 for the cord, but that included stacking...and hauling 1/4 cord into the house. I think I got a great deal. These 2 guys that delivered and stacked the wood are 65 and 67 years old. They are unreal...

I guess I just learned to live with this problem for the last several months...and try to plan my stove fills with the wood to be loaded right in front of the stove door before I open it...

Thanks for your replies, Jack

 

[oconnor]

Ok I think you just said oconnor and I agreed on something. Now I really question your judgement

Everyone gets it right sometimes.

Jack - glad to see you haven't quit on us. Have you given the pipe removal another try?

 

[jtp10181]

Ok I saw it worked fine at first but then got worse. Has anyone check the cap for blockage? Most common problem I find when its smoking back after working fine for some time.

Burning unseasoned wood? Probably if you just bought it in the fall. Its rare dealers actually sell properly seasoned wood. (Yes I know there are some on here that do, and there is ONE I know of in my area that does).

 

[Jack Maggs]

Ok I saw it worked fine at first but then got worse. Has anyone check the cap for blockage? Most common problem I find when its smoking back after working fine for some time.

Burning unseasoned wood? Probably if you just bought it in the fall. Its rare dealers actually sell properly seasoned wood. (Yes I know there are some on here that do, and there is ONE I know of in my area that does).

I did remove the screen from the Dura-Vent, Dura-Tech ...chimney cap when I first noticed a decrease in the draft back in October. The screen was very clean and as I use Super-Cedars as fire starters ...I saw minimum risk in removing the chimney cap screen. But it did not make a difference...

I have burned almost 4 cord of dry seasoned wood this heating season. Sothe stove does burn. I do moniter the temperature with a probe thermometer and burn into the high zone twice a day for about 15-20 minutes. I did go up on the roof today and found only marginal fouling inside the chimney. Less than I would expect. I have burned 3 different wood stoves in 3 different places for a total of 10 years burning experience and perhaps 50-60 cord of wood. I have a moisture meter and the wood checks out at around 20% moisture content. I am far from being an expert, but I do have some experience.

I do have a garage next to house with only about 5 feet distance bewtween the main house and the garage. The ridges run parallel and my chimney is located on the side closest to the garage...The heights of the ridges are pretty close to the same height... Perhaps the proximity of the garage is working against me getting a good draft. I know this is a far from ideal setup, but was my only option at the time.

This proximity of the 2 buildings seems to be the only culprit, but what puzzles me is why I didn't have a problem early in the milder weather...

Sorry to ramble on, but I'm trying to make clear the situation... I guess I should ask how do I slide the sections of double wall pipe up to remove the broken damper. As I said I have no excessive fouling in the pipe and do try to employ the best techniques to keep my chimney as clean as I can.... So short of drilling a hole through both sides of the stove pipe and inserting a steel rod to get the purchase to lift the sucker just far enough to remove the broken damper...how might I do this? As I said I am reluctant to pry off the stove top.

I do have a bit of a feel for these things being deep in the woods and having to fix everything that goes wrong...or so it seems... I am a disabled retired Civil Engineer...and funds are always short...

I do appreciated you folks of this forum listening and trying to help me...I really do
Thanks, Jack

 

[jtp10181]

If you have a Simpson DVL adjustable section in the pipe you should be able to just remove all the screws and slide it up. Might take some force if there is all sorts of crud jammed in there but thats all there is to it.

 

[Jack Maggs]

http://www.ec.gc.ca/cleanair-airpur/default.asp?lang=En&n=8011CD70-1 experience may not always be a good thing.epa stoves have different burning technique according to gulland. wrap leather belt around lower pipe & tighten trying to rotate the pipe to loosen it?

You are correct in your statement of how E.P.A. stoves do burn differently...and after 5 months of burning I am dissappointed in the performance of my new "Englander13NC". ...The lack of frontal draft inlet(s) leaves lots of unburned coals, which accumulate and have to be removed every other day....or sooner in sub 0 weather.... I hate this stove...sorry, but I really do hate the thing. The only good thing it does have going for it is that it can be installed in close proximity to combustables. Oh yeah, it has a glass door...but that doesn't mean a thing to me...I think after this season this stove is going... I do have the heat shields and Englander fan and dropped $800 into the set up for this stove... but it is for the birds... It is gone after this season. Perhaps the belt cinch method may work for moving the DVL section of pipe...(kind of like a plumbers cloth wrench)...

Thanks for the interest and help
My Highest Regards, Jack

 

[Jack Maggs]

If you have a Simpson DVL adjustable section in the pipe you should be able to just remove all the screws and slide it up. Might take some force if there is all sorts of crud jammed in there but thats all there is to it.

I did try this and got no where and as I said I did make this attempt 2 weeks after I starting burning last fall...when all the pipe , stove and everything else was new... Pipe just does not want to move...

I could move it, sure, but I might damage it ...so I have let it go...

Any other methods, and/or suggestions would be welcomed...

Thanks, Jack

 

[jtp10181]

I have gotten DVL pipe apart that was 2 years old and had a chimney fire in it. Was a little tight but not that big of a deal. Not sure why yours would be so stuck unless they siliconed it together.

 

[begreen]

This is a self install. If the temps were high enough to melt the draft damper, one can only imagine how hot they were in the flue. Maybe the pipe was high temp welded?