Power Out - Generator On - Quad Works - 55TRPAH Does Not???

[adam6979]

Alright so we had an extended power outage on Friday. 9:30 am until 3:00 afternoon.

As in my signature,

I have a Quadrafire CB1200 and a Timber Ridge 55TRPAH

I just have a little simple WEN 56352 / 3500 Watt generator.

I have the stoves hooked up to an APC UPS Smart Backup Unit

I use the UPS to buy time to get the generator out and hooked up if needed. I have had it over two years and this is the first time I needed the gene as power outages occur often but usually less than 1/2 hour at a time.

The APC UPS would not recharge the batteries off the generator which really did not surprise me.

However the Quadrafire CB1200 ran just fine from the generator no problems at all.

But here is my question and reason for posting this....

The 55TRPAH flame went out which I did not realize right away. I came back in saw it figured it was from switching to the generator and turned it back on. It fed fine, lit and then switched to the run cycle and stopped feeding. It almost seemed like the auger motor could not feed pellets from the run mode - but was fine in start up mode.

This does not make a lot of sense to me but I felt it certainly wasn't happy with the gene so I shut it down and just let the quad take over fully to avoid ruining anything in the stove.

Any ideas or thoughts on why this happened and what I could do to fix it? (Besides replacing the stove with another quad or buying a better generator!)

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

What was the pah doing when the power went south and what error codes did it toss at you when it shutdown then and also after you put it on the generator (that for some reason the APC can't recharge its batteries from) and the auger stopped turning?

A lot of stoves when they lose power via an outage when burning also trip the high limit system because of loss of convection airflow.

Did you check that the pah had cooled down and was running in the correct mode and all settings remained the same before restarting it?

 

[adam6979]

Yes it was really strange it simply stopped feeding pellets, the combustion and room fan was working fine. No error codes at all. The second it went to RUN from STARTUP it wouldn't feed any more. But I will say I shut it off so there probably would not be any. Once the power came back on I pushed the "ON" button and it fired back up with no trouble. I am thinking something along the lines of the HZ of the gene might not quite be right and perhaps it is causing the auger motor to turn to slowly or weakly to work? But why work on startup cycle and not run cycle? Not really too sure.

 

[BrotherBart]

The APC units see power fluctuations from the genny and keep switching to their battery power. What I have tried to warn folks will happen.

 

[adam6979]

The APC units see power fluctuations from the genny and keep switching to their battery power. What I have tried to warn folks will happen.

That's fine - I went outside the APC unit - had it out of the loop - problem still existed.

 

[adam6979]

But you may be on the right track. If I am not mistaken the stove lowers or increases voltage based on the "HEAT" setting. I believe in startup the stove defaults to 9 and then when running I typically run on 1 to 3 setting - perhaps the lower voltage of the gene was enough that the auger could not continue to turn. Maybe if I had put the stove up on 9 it would have been fine?

 

[BrotherBart]

Did you bring the Quad back up first and then the PAH? Might be interesting to see what happens with the PAH the only one on genny power.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The stove does not change the voltage on the auger motor however. That is line voltage in timed pulses.

What gets changed is the combustion and convection blower fraction of power seen. Which a lot of voltmeters see as a voltage change.

 

[begreen]

The APC units see power fluctuations from the genny and keep switching to their battery power. What I have tried to warn folks will happen.

Yes, I couldn't run our APC UPS on our old Coleman generator. It works fine on the cleaner power from our Yamaha inverter generator.

 

[t5eu9eb7]

Is the generator outputting power in a sine wave?

 

[adam6979]

Thank you all for your comments.

Is the generator outputting power in a sine wave?

I have no idea if it is sinewave or not.

Yes, I couldn't run our APC UPS on our old Coleman generator. It works fine on the cleaner power from our Yamaha inverter generator.

I did not expect a $400 gene to be able to supply clean power to the APC either.

Did you bring the Quad back up first and then the PAH? Might be interesting to see what happens with the PAH the only one on genny power.

I did bring the Quad up first but I tried the Englander on its own too, no change. I guess I should ask does anyone own the 55TRPAH and run it off a cheaper genset like mine?

 

[adam6979]

The stove does not change the voltage on the auger motor however. That is line voltage in timed pulses.

What gets changed is the combustion and convection blower fraction of power seen. Which a lot of voltmeters see as a voltage change.

So I believe you are saying it changes the pulses (on cycles) to auger motor based upon heat setting. That would make sense to me seeing it is a stepper motor... I wander if the gene was not putting out the minimum voltage required by the auger motor. Still though I'd like to know why "Startup" worked and "Run" failed.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Feed rate gets changed by changing the length of time the auger motor is powered on during the feed cycle which is usually fixed in duration (but need not be). Its speed never changes nor does the voltage (always line voltage in this case) to it.

There are several threads on here illustrating auger feed timings at least one of them was with an ESW stove that was never leaving low burn.

ETA: Thread here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/55-shpah.135613/ End Edit

Normally low cost generators have a lot of noise in their output which is bad for both the electronics packages and motors on a lot of devices.

Since you added another reply while I was typing if that stove was too hot when it went to enter run mode it could have been in the process of faulting out and you never gave it the time to do so.

You need to take that pah in a totally normal cold shut down state and try to start it up on the genny by itself.

As for what the pah does at startup, I don't know the exact steps but I can likely guess that it will fall into two camps. I know what my stove does and what several others do and it is not the same.

My stove starts with a fixed startup feed rate and once the proof of fire switch says hey you FIRE in the pot, it proceeds to ramp up through all feed rate settings on the stove and finally exits start up on level 5/5 and then goes to the feed rate set on the controls and enters run mode.

 

[acammer]

Feed rate gets changed by changing the length of time the auger motor is powered on during the feed cycle which is usually fixed in duration (but need not be). Its speed never changes nor does the voltage (always line voltage in this case) to it.

There are several threads on here illustrating auger feed timings at least one of them was with an ESW stove that was never leaving low burn.

ETA: Thread here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/55-shpah.135613/ End Edit

Normally low cost generators have a lot of noise in their output which is bad for both the electronics packages and motors on a lot of devices.

Since you added another reply while I was typing if that stove was too hot when it went to enter run mode it could have been in the process of faulting out and you never gave it the time to do so.

You need to take that pah in a totally normal cold shut down state and try to start it up on the genny by itself.

As for what the pah does at startup, I don't know the exact steps but I can likely guess that it will fall into two camps. I know what my stove does and what several others do and it is not the same.

My stove starts with a fixed startup feed rate and once the proof of fire switch says hey you FIRE in the pot, it proceeds to ramp up through all feed rate settings on the stove and finally exits start up on level 5/5 and then goes to the feed rate set on the controls and enters run mode.

I don't know about running the PAH on the generator. As for the start-up, it runs at a flat rate for fuel and air throughout. If it doesn't have sufficient POF by like the 8 minute mark it runs a long like 20 second pulse on the fuel and then returns to the standard rate. Once the stove exits start-up it goes right to whatever feed settings you have. If you had a really slow ignition for some reason, and hence a really full burn pot by the time things got going, and you follow that up by going straight to full power, it'll run pretty dirty for about 20-30 minutes as it works to burn up the excess fuel.

 

[adam6979]

I don't know about running the PAH on the generator. As for the start-up, it runs at a flat rate for fuel and air throughout. If it doesn't have sufficient POF by like the 8 minute mark it runs a long like 20 second pulse on the fuel and then returns to the standard rate. Once the stove exits start-up it goes right to whatever feed settings you have. If you had a really slow ignition for some reason, and hence a really full burn pot by the time things got going, and you follow that up by going straight to full power, it'll run pretty dirty for about 20-30 minutes as it works to burn up the excess fuel.

Ouch - I would guess I have another problem than too.... I get a slow ignition every time and a full pot and dirty burn every startup for 20 mins or so. I actually have a gasket coming for the burn pot because it rocks in it's cradle and is not a tight seal.... I really didn't need to know a full burn pot and crappy initial start is a problem. I just thought it was the ESW way....

 

[acammer]

Ouch - I would guess I have another problem than too.... I get a slow ignition every time and a full pot and dirty burn every startup for 20 mins or so. I actually have a gasket coming for the burn pot because it rocks in it's cradle and is not a tight seal.... I really didn't need to know a full burn pot and crappy initial start is a problem. I just thought it was the ESW way....

For reference a good start usually has a flame in 5-6 minutes. The burn pot never gets any fuller than the level of horizontal holes in the side of the pot. Nearly all the fuel is burning by the time the stove exists start-up and begins it's regular feed rate. The glass stays clean - at worst it gets a small dark/soot spot on the top left that burns off cleanly after a little run time. Minimal smoke.

 

[adam6979]

For reference a good start usually has a flame in 5-6 minutes. The burn pot never gets any fuller than the level of horizontal holes in the side of the pot. Nearly all the fuel is burning by the time the stove exists start-up and begins it's regular feed rate. The glass stays clean - at worst it gets a small dark/soot spot on the top left that burns off cleanly after a little run time. Minimal smoke.

I posted this on another post too to try and help out someone else but I wanted to put it here too. I have been battling when I put my burn pot back in and do not pay attention it will rock side to side and leak air around the pot instead of through it. I took a 2 foot piece of real aluminum foil and folded it into about a 6x6 square. I then sliced a slit through the middle and a little on the side to make an "I" shaped opening. I then pushed this over the burn pot and massaged it all down to act like a gasket. For the first time since I owned the stove (4th year!) the pellets lit after only 5 minutes and it changed into the RUN cycle the first time instead of E2 and then doing it again. I cannot get pics right now but I can in a day or so if you cannot understand what I am trying to say.

The stove is now burning very clean and hot - I assume as it was intended. I am not really sure why ESW does not make a burn pot gasket... my quad has was as do several others I have looked at. I have a piece of Lytherm coming to replace the tinfoil - but wanted to be sure that was the problem first... it appears it is.

I greatly appreciate your report above telling me I was still not 100% right on the running of the stove.

 

[acammer]

I posted this on another post too to try and help out someone else but I wanted to put it here too. I have been battling when I put my burn pot back in and do not pay attention it will rock side to side and leak air around the pot instead of through it. I took a 2 foot piece of real aluminum foil and folded it into about a 6x6 square. I then sliced a slit through the middle and a little on the side to make an "I" shaped opening. I then pushed this over the burn pot and massaged it all down to act like a gasket. For the first time since I owned the stove (4th year!) the pellets lit after only 5 minutes and it changed into the RUN cycle the first time instead of E2 and then doing it again. I cannot get pics right now but I can in a day or so if you cannot understand what I am trying to say.

The stove is now burning very clean and hot - I assume as it was intended. I am not really sure why ESW does not make a burn pot gasket... my quad has was as do several others I have looked at. I have a piece of Lytherm coming to replace the tinfoil - but wanted to be sure that was the problem first... it appears it is.

I greatly appreciate your report above telling me I was still not 100% right on the running of the stove.

Definitely doesn't take much to throw them off, and it sure is nice when it's running right. I've had three burn pots now and all of them have sealed up pretty good. My first one was a little rocky in the cradle, but if you found the sweet spot it worked good. Glad it helped.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Yes, I couldn't run our APC UPS on our old Coleman generator. It works fine on the cleaner power from our Yamaha inverter generator.

I see I'm not the only one with a uber-buck Yamaha...... Nice units, not cheap.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Thank you all for your comments.

I have no idea if it is sinewave or not.

I did not expect a $400 gene to be able to supply clean power to the APC either.



I did bring the Quad up first but I tried the Englander on its own too, no change. I guess I should ask does anyone own the 55TRPAH and run it off a cheaper genset like mine?

Unless it's an inverter genny or a multiple pole (more than 4) it's modified sine wave. Most less expensive genny's are 2 pole straight and the better ones are 2 pole skewed (which tends to soften the waveform a bit) but it's not sine wave and it's probably not 60 cps either. cps is dependent on armature revolutions and small engines fluctuate quite a bit. 2 pole heads typically spin at 3600 rpm to achieve 60cps while 4 pole heads spin 1800 rpm which is why they use a diesel on a 4 pole head usually, but, cps is dependent on stable rpm of the driving power source.