Propane powered!

[EatenByLimestone]

I wonder if this is a gimmick or actually saves money/is cleaner for the environment.

 

[stoveliker]

I believe the European lpg is just propane.
And yes, it's cleaner burning.
Savings depend on taxation, which is different than for gasoline or diesel in Europe (or at least The Netherlands).

 

[stoveliker]

indeed:

Propane, Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG)

Propane, or liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), is a clean-burning fossil fuel that can be used to power internal combustion engines.

www.fueleconomy.gov

 

[peakbagger]

It is usually a gas tax game. Most states ignore they exist and dont tax the fuel.

 

[ABMax24]

Propane conversions used to be big 25 years ago up here. But the engine makes less power, and the propane doesn't vaporize at -40.

The tax man caught on and applied road tax to the fuel. Unfortunately now most places charge road tax on the propane to fill a 20lb bottle for a bbq if they also have a pump for filling vehicles.

 

[stoveliker]

My dad has for the last 40 years or so driven cars that drive on gasoline AND on lpg (minor changes to the engine; one can switch over with a button while driving)..
One burns more of the lpg per km driven than gasoline (energy content is less), so even if the price is less per liter, it may set you back more.
In NL it is cheaper because the taxes are huge but less for lpg because it's cleaner. Indeed it depens on the taxation whether it makes financial sense.

On another note, regarding phrases on cars. I recently saw a van with in big letters:
C4 Energy you can feel.

I had to laugh. I prefer not to feel the energy of C4, as generally it gets released in too short a time for my comfort.
I had to google it, and it turns out to be an energy drink...

 

[begreen]

It's cleaner burning than gas or diesel and in the engine the oil stays cleaner as well. Allegedly this reduces wear and maintenance costs.

 

[EbS-P]

During the oil embargo they changed a some of the farm vehicles over to propane. Most were big block Chevy or 350s. They didn’t use them that way very long. Tanks sat out in the junk pile all my life.

 

[begreen]

I run my generator on propane and have to admit the oil looks new but there are not enough hours on it to be objective.
"Propane is exceptionally clean compared to liquid fossil fuels. Soot is typically the first condemning factor for lube oils in engines burning diesel or gasoline. And since soot is carbon and there’s much less carbon in propane fuels, your oil will stay much cleaner much longer burning propane."

Everything you need to know about maintenance for propane powered pickup trucks

An increasing number of contractors and fleet managers are looking into the feasibility of running pickup trucks powered by liquid propane gas (LPG). The reason is simple: with the cost of propane running just north of $2 per gasoline gallon equivalent, these trucks make economic sense for a...

www.equipmentworld.com

 

[DBoon]

I recall that when I was a kid, propane powered car conversions were talked about a lot during the 73-79 oil crisis period. I don't know how many cars were really converted.

 

[blades]

Waste Management ( very large corp. player in garbage ect) runs their trucks on propane. They were considering running Methane ( more btus than propane), which the land fills generate in huge quanities. don't know if they ever ran with that, as there is a quite a bit if filtering needed for them to use what is coming off the landfills although they are using some of it in house at various locations to power on site equipment . As always it is a matter of volume vs costs to run with it.
In Wisconsin , I think Sheboygan , there is a company that specializes in LPG & LNG conversion systems for automotive use, Minor changes to those systems would be need for a methane fuel, same as LPG vs LNG.
In a boiler to steam to generator systems its ( simplfied) just a pressure regulator and burner orifices that need to be changed.

 

[peakbagger]

Landfill Gas operators sell their cleaned up landfill gas back into the natural gas system for big bucks as "renewable propane" for far more than they would save running trucks on it.

 

[blades]

Could be what they are doing here. WE Energies according to state mandate is supposed to be buying excess electric energy from them, but claims it isn't clean enough to add to the grid. To me that is funny as the max Harmonic distortion is supposed to be 6%. Back in the day I never saw anything that low from WE lines on my equipment when I lived/ worked under their power grid. I was constantly setting up isolation systems for customers to protect the new solid state cnc stuff from their "clean energy" ( 70's and 80"s) Vacuum tube systems didn't really care as they could absorb and dissipate the heat generated by the distortion. It was particularly bad on LSI ( large scale integrated circuits ) components . All your newfangled home appliances, when they fail electronicly, can almost always be traced back to the power grid distortion. It is a 2 part problem, one the grid distortion and two the woefully inadequate filter systems on power supplies in the consumer market equipment.

 

[peakbagger]

I have installed several large natural gas engines similar to landfill gas engines, there should not be an issue with power quality from those generators.

I did some work on a CoOp owned LFG system in Northern VT for awhile. The landfill operator originally regarded the LFG as nuisance and flared it. The CoOp signed a long term deal to buy the gas for some trivial amount and installed a LFG system with 3 (eventually 4) LFG engines. The landfill operator regreted signing a logn term contract and were not very friendly to the CoOp.

They had to clean up the gas to run it in the engines buts its pretty well known tech. There is product called siloxane used in lot of consumer products that sneaks past the filters and when it get in the combustion chamber fo the engine it forms silica which wears out the heads and pistons. They had contractor running the plant that had a crew that just went around between several landfills rebuilding the engines. To turn it into pipeline gas requires additional clean up gear including a pressure swing absorber and system to remove inert gases. The profit for selling the gas as "renewable" is so high its worth the hassle.

University of New Hampshire's campus runs on cleaned up landfill gas that they run through gas turbines.

 

[blades]

Thanks for the background on the landfill gas, been awhile since delved into to that stuff. I do not have to deal with power systems on a daily basis anymore as I left that corp stuff some 30 years ago. I just remember the basics yet, tech has changed considerable over the years. just got through resetting a bunch of systems in my shop due to power surge/ interuption glitch likely from storms that passed through. Even got the stuff running on isolation lines ( ground loop maybe). such fun.

 

[Highbeam]

For the last decade or so propane has been the same price for us at 2$ per gallon. Gasoline has quickly jumped from under 3$ to 4$ in that same time period. Sure there’s a little less energy per gallon in propane but it’s half price! Of course, no road tax on propane so that would hurt the savings somewhat.

All but one of my generators are dual fuel and only use propane because it’s cheaper per kWh produced, stores better, easier on oil, less emissions, and doesn’t clog carburetors.

 

[begreen]

All but one of my generators are dual fuel and only use propane because it’s cheaper per kWh produced, stores better, easier on oil, less emissions, and doesn’t clog carburetors.

Yup, it doesn't go stale.

 

[ABMax24]

For the last decade or so propane has been the same price for us at 2$ per gallon. Gasoline has quickly jumped from under 3$ to 4$ in that same time period. Sure there’s a little less energy per gallon in propane but it’s half price! Of course, no road tax on propane so that would hurt the savings somewhat.

All but one of my generators are dual fuel and only use propane because it’s cheaper per kWh produced, stores better, easier on oil, less emissions, and doesn’t clog carburetors.

And your retailer has still been making a killer profit the whole time. Propane on the market rarely trades above $1.25/gallon, and usually below $1.00.

Propane is extremely easy to refine in comparison to gasoline, and especially compared to diesel. There's no sulfur, aromatics, or other regulated compounds to strip out, keeping its cost low. A simple fractionation column and the refining is basically done. Propane doesn't have particularly rigid purity requirements, usually 90% propane is good enough, with the rest being compounds like iso-butane, propylene, butane or butylene. All of which being light hydrocarbons still burn cleanly in cooking appliances or combustion engines.

In some ways I'm surprised it's use hasn't become more common place for automotive applications, particularly considering the work going into CNG powered transport trucks.

Propane Prices: Mont Belvieu, Texas

Graph and download economic data for Propane Prices: Mont Belvieu, Texas from 1992-07-09 to 2024-11-25 about mont belvieu, propane, commodities, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

 

[Highbeam]

And your retailer has still been making a killer profit the whole time. Propane on the market rarely trades above $1.25/gallon, and usually below $1.00.

Propane is extremely easy to refine in comparison to gasoline, and especially compared to diesel. There's no sulfur, aromatics, or other regulated compounds to strip out, keeping its cost low. A simple fractionation column and the refining is basically done. Propane doesn't have particularly rigid purity requirements, usually 90% propane is good enough, with the rest being compounds like iso-butane, propylene, butane or butylene. All of which being light hydrocarbons still burn cleanly in cooking appliances or combustion engines.

In some ways I'm surprised it's use hasn't become more common place for automotive applications, particularly considering the work going into CNG powered transport trucks.

Propane Prices: Mont Belvieu, Texas

Graph and download economic data for Propane Prices: Mont Belvieu, Texas from 1992-07-09 to 2024-11-25 about mont belvieu, propane, commodities, and USA.

fred.stlouisfed.org

Interesting information.

And the dang stuff goes to liquid at a silly low pressure around 120 psi so it’s pretty easy to contain.

I ran two propane gensets today and changed their oil. It does get dirty after a year even on propane with low usage.

 

[peakbagger]

The past issue for propane as a transportation fuel is fuel density and packaging limitations. Propane needs to be stored in pressurized cylinders and gasoline/diesel does not. The actual vessel needs to be heaver as its pressurized versus atmospheric. The most efficient packaging for pressurized propane is a sphere followed by a cylinder. Neither storage vessel packages well in a passenger vehicle.

Fuel density on a volume basis is 34% less than gasoline (115k btu/gallon for gasoline versus 84K btu/gallon for propane). Its worse compared to diesel 138 btu/gal (40 % less). Its actually worse for transportation fuel as the propane tanks need "head space" to account for temperature changes. This leads to range limitations similar to EVs. Great for local driving but less great for long distances.

As noted, propane burns clean so engine controls can far less than gas or especially diesel.

Propane is predominantly a byproduct of natural gas production and in many gases natural gas is byproduct of oil production. Renewably produced propane is possible usually as a byproduct of biodiesel production and much hyped but far more costly than fossil based propane.

 

[stoveliker]

Range limitations are not "like EVs" - at least in terms of practical usage.
We drove to southern France for vacations using this. Sure one has to fill the tank sooner but going 500 km vs 750 km is not a big deal. At 100 km/h that's enough to have to stop before the tank is empty anyway.

I'm not disputing the facts you mention. Just that their impact on users has been essentially non-existent in my experience.


I don't know what they took out to allow that volume when they put the tank in.

 

[begreen]

And your retailer has still been making a killer profit the whole time. Propane on the market rarely trades above $1.25/gallon, and usually below $1.00.

There is a big difference in the pricing for a large, fixed tank refill than for refilling portable bottles. I've been told that we have higher propane costs due to the distance from the refineries. That said, there's gouging too. In the Seattle area the average propane price is a dollar or two higher with fewer competing suppliers.

 

[ABMax24]

The past issue for propane as a transportation fuel is fuel density and packaging limitations. Propane needs to be stored in pressurized cylinders and gasoline/diesel does not. The actual vessel needs to be heaver as its pressurized versus atmospheric. The most efficient packaging for pressurized propane is a sphere followed by a cylinder. Neither storage vessel packages well in a passenger vehicle.

Fuel density on a volume basis is 34% less than gasoline (115k btu/gallon for gasoline versus 84K btu/gallon for propane). Its worse compared to diesel 138 btu/gal (40 % less). Its actually worse for transportation fuel as the propane tanks need "head space" to account for temperature changes. This leads to range limitations similar to EVs. Great for local driving but less great for long distances.

As noted, propane burns clean so engine controls can far less than gas or especially diesel.

Propane is predominantly a byproduct of natural gas production and in many gases natural gas is byproduct of oil production. Renewably produced propane is possible usually as a byproduct of biodiesel production and much hyped but far more costly than fossil based propane.

100%, which is why it's interesting to me that propane has been passed over and CNG and Hydrogen are being explored for transport fuels, considering they are considerably less dense and more difficult to contain.

 

[ABMax24]

There is a big difference in the pricing for a large, fixed tank refill than for refilling portable bottles. I've been told that we have higher propane costs due to the distance from the refineries. That said, there's gouging too. In the Seattle area the average propane price is a dollar or two higher with fewer competing suppliers.

View attachment 327578

That's right, prices I quoted were market price for extremely large volumes. There's always markup at the consumer level, but propane has a much higher markup than diesel or gasoline. In part to due smaller volumes sold, and the fact the the equipment is specialized and a consumer can't pump their own propane.

Locally it's the opposite, our propane comes from local gas plant within half an hour of the city, our gasoline and diesel are trucked in from the refineries 5 hrs away.

Costco is our cheapest propane supplier, a 20lb fill is about $13 depending on current prices.

 

[blades]

years ago the was a company that began trading on the exchanges for propane powered conversions and such . Looked real good on paper at the time but I was a little queezy on it investment wise. They didn't last long and went belly up. Propane vs Battery propane way ahead but still have the filling problem which is worse than the ev stuff. Setting up home fueling system for me would not be much more expensive than a fast ev charge system. pump/compressor is the pricy part. Tank for vehicle couple hundred on a retrofit . a complete retrofit about $2500. If I were to fill at home I would be able to skip the fed and state fuel taxes concerning auto. Otherwise at a fill station there would those to add to cost per gallon. propane will give around 75% milage vs diesel/gas, but being apx 50%less per gallon decent trade off. Proane causes very little depragration to lubrication oil in and engine. cold weather is a bit of a problem but a tank/ regulator heater system solves that for the most part . no worse than diesel gelling. My prepaid price for propane for the next year is is capped at $1.65/gal , if the price goes lower than that at refill time for my 500 gallon tank I get the lower rate. Propane tanks are filled to 80% to allow room for expansion.
I saw that Commiefornia is considering going to go to a road milage tax vs fueltax as they are coming up short on fuel tax dollars due to the high number of ev units units there. #s suggesed were from $.02-.06 per mile. this has been bandied about from local up through fed levels for awhile now.