Puff the magic dragon (stove)

[ramzzey13]

Hi all we recently moved in to our first house in August. The house came equipped with a wood stove (later found out it was a Montgomery Ward) and type 2 chimney system (8" flue) which was awesome. So a friend of mine gave me some of his seasoned oak that he had just to test my stove it with (we have over 2 acres of mature woods in the back so wood in the future will be easy to acquire). Results are as the title suggests very,very smokey. The small yield of heat and the smoke directed me to look at a new stove. I did try three fires and every time my entire basement smelled like a campfire (I read after each fire and finally realized it was not me but a very old stove). I am done with this smoker! The front doors are not sealed and if I sealed them it would not be able to get oxygen. Anyhow you can get a idea of what I was working with by the pictures.

Additionally, after reading a lot, mostly on this site, I was going to go with the englander NC 30 but after reviewing the manual I saw it uses a 6" flue, so no go, the replacement for the Dragon continues! Anyhow, just wanted to say Hello and I can't wait to learn more about stoves!

 

[begreen]

What does the 8" flue thimble connect into? Is there a liner in the chimney and if yes, what size? How tall is it?

Oak takes a long time to season well. A modern stove is going to be more particular about the dryness of the wood burned and the amount of draft.

 

[brenndatomu]

Just drop a 6" liner in the chimney, ready to go...

 

[ramzzey13]

To begreen, the 8" flue goes directly outside (I can take a picture tomorrow), to 2 feet (or more) over the roof. No chimney liner as you can see in the picture I included.
To brenndatomu, first hello to another NE ohioan. I live by the Akron area. I just look up liner prices. They seem pricey 500 bucks or so and can you clean those easily?

Would I ever consider a 6 to 8 piece? I do not want to buy a stove and not have it perform optimally. I would rather buy a 8" pipe stove, right?
Are all the new stoves 6"?

 

[vasten]

I believe all stoves now are 6" flues I could be wrong but I think that is the standard.

I installed a brand new Jotul for a friend of mine he had an 8" metalbestos chimney and he had two different quotes on the install. One said they wanted to insert a 6in liner all the way from the stove to the cap. The second was just going to put an 8 inch to 6 in reducer to the stove. So that's what we did, we just put the reducer in and he is watching his draft to make sure that it is not over drafting but to date has not had an issue with it over drafting once yet.

So can you run a 6 in into an 8in yes. you would put your reducer at the chimney run 6in black pipe from the stove to the thimble.

OR another option that you have and this is entirely up to you is find a good quality older stove that has an 8 in opening and tie it all back in together.

Before you do all of that a simplier test would be to buy a thing of kiln dried wood from a gas station. Low heat and a lot of smoke usually is a sign of under seasoned wood, it will usually have a hissing or sizzling sound to it as it is burned. If you still have a campfire smell then it is possible that the stove is leaking from a joint.

I noticed you said that with the door shut and sealed it wouldn't be able to get oxygen is there a damper control knob or lever any wheres? most doors are designed to seal air tight and force air through the designated damper.

 

[ramzzey13]

Thanks for the reply Vasten. I am starting to get a idea of how to make this work.

I think I would want to do as you suggested (rather than liner from stove to cap). All 6" up to the thimble. Outside the house (chimney) let it be the same old 8" with no change.

I would rather get a newer model that I know for sure did not have a smoking issue. One that is EPA checked (I realize as well for these stoves to be heating as they should the moisture content in the wood should be under 20%. I will get a wood moisture meter to insure this. I am all about efficient burning etc.

As far as the simpler test I believe I already tried it. I do not want the smell again, just got done washing and scrubbing with vinegar... I did three tests already, and my significant other will not take that smell and cleaning again. I should mention its a Franklin stove and other reviews mention they are 3/4 sealed up. Everyone suggests they are junk and to use the "dragon smokers" for outside uses or decoration. Heres a link to another hearth post https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/montgomery-ward-franklin-heater.62433/ .

BTW, There was no sizzling sound or any sign the wood was any where over 20% moinsture. I included pictures of how this thing is not sealed whatsoever, I might as well take the doors off. Furthermore, say I did seal this smoker up the stove would have no way at all to get oxygen to fuel it I wiped it down trying to find a damper and there is nothing. It would essentially snuff itself out. I actually bought new gasketing to try and put in already but that was about 50 bucks with the cement and then I finally realized (after reading further reviews on this) that the Franklin is junk and I returned that gasketing and saved the 50 for a new stove.

Any product links so I can get a idea how to install this reducer at the thimble (new to this).

 

[begreen]

Modern stoves want dry wood and decent draft to perform correctly. If the chimney height is at the minimum draft will be decreased by the two 90º turns in the smoke path. An increase in the flue size will further dilute draft.

Is there a clay liner currently in the chimney? What are the interior dimensions of the chimney?

 

[brenndatomu]

I think I would want to do as you suggested (rather than liner from stove to cap). All 6" up to the thimble. Outside the house (chimney) let it be the same old 8" with no change.

This is typically a recipe for low draft, and problems. Some have done it, you won't know for sure until you try, but my guess is that you have a low probability of success here due to (2) 90* turns and an external chimney (cold)

 

[vasten]

my suggestion then would be to get the best stove you can afford, in stoves you get what you pay for.. talk to alot of dealers in your area and see who you feel is the most reputable. Then either have them install or DIY, you can even have them come out and test your draft to ensure it is drafting properly or have a chimney sweep look at it for you. I dont know if you had it looked at by a professional prior to buying the house, but if not always a good idea to have it inspected because you dont know what the prior owners did to the chimney.

depending on the chimney construction, location height etc, you may have low draft, and may need to run the stove hot if it is external noninsulated such as brick and clay to keep a good draft. Best answer is to have it looked at by a professional a couple bucks spent up front will give you piece of mind and more knowledge on what you actually have.

I didnt think it was a great stove that you had, but figured we would try to figure it out prior to buying a new one.

 

[coaly]

It's not the stove that is the problem, you are not getting the flue outside hot enough. When you get the chimney flue hot and drafting properly, opening doors or leaks will rush into stove and up chimney - making it burn harder, you won't have a smell of smoke inside no matter what stove is there. Make sure there is no clean out door leaking cold air into chimney flue. The height of your chimney could be the factor since we don't know the area inside the flue you're heating to create the proper draft.

Leaks in the front doors will make it burn harder when you have the correct draft from the proper flue temperature.
Your statement " I am done with this smoker! The front doors are not sealed and if I sealed them it would not be able to get oxygen" is an indication you probably don't know the basics of what makes the stove work.
I'll clip and paste the basics from a thread explaining this to a similar poster from the Fisher Forum.
You want to measure the inside dimensions of flue and let us know how high in feet the chimney is. This will give us an idea of how strong your "engine that makes the stove work" is.

Here's the basics;
The chimney is the engine that drives the stove. Hot rising gasses are hotter inside the flue than out. The more temperature differential, the faster they rise. This is draft. The first purpose is very clear, to expel smoke and unwanted byproducts of combustion. The second and most important is why the insulated flue is best. The rising gasses create a low pressure area in connector pipe and stove. (a slight vacuum) This allows atmospheric air pressure to push into the stove feeding the fire oxygen. So the hotter the flue inside and the colder outside, (outdoors at chimney top) the stronger the push into the stove. The smaller 6 inch flue is almost half the size of the 8. Those two inches in diameter almost doubles the square inch cross sectional diameter. So the larger flue takes almost twice as much heat (waste) to get the same results of air pushing into the intake. The insulated flue stays hotter inside much easier making the stove more efficient using less wood. The other advantage with an insulated flue staying hotter is less creosote. 250* is the temperature you must stay above all the way to the top. At 250* water vapor from combustion condenses on the flue walls causing smoke particles to stick. This is creosote. So the insulation requires less heat to be left up to keep clean. That's why older stoves can then be baffled inside to put the heat to stove top instead of needing it up the chimney.

Any opening into flue other than the stove through intakes also allows atmospheric pressure to leak in. This cooler air cools the flue gasses which slows draft since there is less temperature differential decreasing the amount of air going into stove.

So you can see why a more efficient newer stove requires a 6 inch chimney. First , they don't waste enough heat out of a smaller 6 inch outlet to heat a larger area of flue inside. The same goes for 6 inch older stoves connected to larger chimneys.

 

[ramzzey13]

Thanks for all the responses!
To begreen, from all my research I have read I see all people problems (well mostly all) that come from not enough heat from their new EPA wood stove stem from wood that is over 20% in moisture content. I see what you mean about the flue size increase would further dilute it. No liner at all. All the "pipe" looks like what is in the picture above. The dimension are 12-3/8" circumference. 8" diameter..

To brenndatomu, ok I will probably take your advice. I would hate installing something not up to spec and expect it to perform. I guess you are suggesting liner all the way from cap to stove?

To vasten, I'm not sure getting the best stove that I can afford is the right idea. So people have stated the Englander nc-30 is a good stove, and its hard to beat for the price (899 currently).. Most all reviews tell me that. I'm not sure why I would spend more money if that stove would work fine. Are you suggesting to throw more money at a stove and then use the 8" pipe? I'm planning on DIY. With everyone help/suggestions on this great site and my thoroughness I'm sure installing will not be a issue (and if it is I'll get paid help!). The chimney is on the east side of my house, about 20 ft up. It is external non-insulated like the pictures above. All the pipe is in that fashion.

To coaly, I agree with your first paragraph. I even purchased a little wax burner piece that you place in the stove and let burn to ensure the pipe is heated before I first ignite the fire (which it was enough to have a differential great enough at least to allow the heat to rise. Height of chimney is 20ft as stated above. 12-3/8" circumference. 8" diameter. Maybe you can get a idea about the strength of the engine. And I appreciate the basic. I learned a few more terms which is awesome. What I was saying when you quoted me was if that stove was sealed the fire would have no oxygen. Fire requires 3 items to combust oxygen, heat, and fuel. Sealing it would deprive the fire from oxygen hence snuffing the fire. In any case what I've read so far is these stoves take a whole lot of wood and produce very little heat. Which is worthless to me. And if I need to be worrying about keeping it extra hot for the differential thats just to much. I would rather have a fully sealed system than a Franklin "fireplace" and it really is basically a fireplace. Its not a stove at all.

If I inserted say a 6" liner inside my 8" the whole way down from cap to stove would the 8" pipe essentially be a form of insulation (not great but better than direct exposure to elements) for my 6"? And then run that down all the way to the stove of my choice?


Thanks for everyone help again so far!

 

[bholler]

I would rather get a newer model that I know for sure did not have a smoking issue. One that is EPA checked

If you install it on your current chimney there is a good possibility of it still smoking.


I would recommend getting the chimney inspected before going any farther. Yes you could line it but if that metal chimney is in bad shape do you really want to spend the money to line a chimney that is gong to start falling apart in a few years? And the dimensions you are giving don't sound like normal chimney pipe that is used for wood stoves another reason to have it inspected. You need to know what you have before figuring out how to change it.

If I inserted say a 6" liner inside my 8" the whole way down from cap to stove would the 8" pipe essentially be a form of insulation (not great but better than direct exposure to elements) for my 6"? And then run that down all the way to the stove of my choice?

I would insulate the liner also. It doesn't cost that much more and it will improve performance.

 

[Rich L]

Hi all we recently moved in to our first house in August. The house came equipped with a wood stove (later found out it was a Montgomery Ward) and type 2 chimney system (8" flue) which was awesome. So a friend of mine gave me some of his seasoned oak that he had just to test my stove it with (we have over 2 acres of mature woods in the back so wood in the future will be easy to acquire). Results are as the title suggests very,very smokey. The small yield of heat and the smoke directed me to look at a new stove. I did try three fires and every time my entire basement smelled like a campfire (I read after each fire and finally realized it was not me but a very old stove). I am done with this smoker! The front doors are not sealed and if I sealed them it would not be able to get oxygen. Anyhow you can get a idea of what I was working with by the pictures.

Additionally, after reading a lot, mostly on this site, I was going to go with the englander NC 30 but after reviewing the manual I saw it uses a 6" flue, so no go, the replacement for the Dragon continues! Anyhow, just wanted to say Hello and I can't wait to learn more about stoves!

Basements sometimes have negative pressure.Before lighting stove open the basement door which reverses the draft.Let us know if this helps.

 

[coaly]

No mention of a damper either. (possibly top mounted?) Improper use of one is going to cause smoke and smell.
As Rich L mentioned above, negative pressure from mechanical fans or other appliances reduces the air pressure at the intake of your Fireplace reducing the push of air into it headed up chimney. It all goes back to the basics of the chimney making it work.

I was confused by the title calling it a "dragon" which is a term for an air tight stove burning with too little air, and using stove in the title. To little air should not be your problem, and too much air should burn fast with little to no smoke.
The part that confirmed you had an air tight stove was mentioning adding door gasket material to seal doors. That is for an air tight stove to assure all air is controlled through air intake only. It appears to have screen doors, so the gasket is not necessary. We're on the same page now

With screen during open door burning, (older double door stoves and fireplaces) the only air control you have is with the flue or pipe damper on the exhaust. Normal operation is getting flue hot (above 250* to top) and slowly close damper until smoke starts to roll in at top. Open slightly, and that is your setting for the flue temp and atmospheric pressure at the time. That captures the most heat while venting combustion products. Learning the damper will get the most heat out of it.

Not only does a fire simply require air, appliances are normally designed to provide 40% more oxygen than required for a cleaner burn.
The reason you need air is to mix with the flammable gasses expelled from the fuel as it heats causing the visible flame.
Turbulence creates a better mix. So in your case, velocity and the way you load with air space and making the flame change direction gives a cleaner burn. (Velocity is controlled with damper) You can do a lot wrong to cause smoke. Not enough air produces charcoal. Here's the reason more air than necessary is required in a controlled fire; Air can't mix with the flammable gas coming out of a log - it mixes outside the log. Only excess oxygen molecules that wander onto the surface cause ignition of carbon monoxide. (Carbon Monoxide and Hydrogen are created by water vapor being expelled from log and contacting the charcoal layer) That is the blue flame when burning properly near the wood. Hydrogen burns clear.

20 feet at 200* f (flue gas minus outside temp) puts your chimney right in the middle of the chart at -.08 inches of water column. Some higher performance appliances will give WC required, or the manufacturer can give that to you. That's normally done with coal appliances since draft becomes much more critical and is set to exact requirement with a barometric damper.
Figure a little less since it looks square in picture probably 7 1/2 square ? equaling 56.25 square inches where a round 8 inch is 50.24 square inches.

To really learn about using wood as energy, I recommend finding "The Woodburners Encyclopedia" by Jay Shelton that comes up on eBay. It's the best I've found covering all aspects of wood burning, appliances and venting. No matter what stove you end up with, you will use the information in that book.

 

[ramzzey13]

Awesome for all the advice. I was able to request the book from the library as well. I attached a few more photos of my chimney outside to give everyone a idea. And a measurement of the cleanout which is smaller than the actual chimney. I need to read more to understand and to figure out the best stove/furnace to upgrade to in the future.

 

[vasten]

To clarify my response regarding the stove, there is a lot of technology that goes in to stoves, and with that is a cost. Will a NC-30 work well for you probably. But my suggestion was to do the research and figure out what works best for you dollar wise. My father in law has run an NC-30 for years going into an 8" interior masonry chimney and is able to heat his whole house with it. So for him that works best.

I agree with Coaly, that the draft is the most important aspect of the concern you have. If you can get that figured out the stove you have which appears to be in good condition may work out well for you.

regarding your statement that:
The chimney is on the east side of my house, about 20 ft up. It is external non-insulated like the pictures above. All the pipe is in that fashion.

It look like it could be insulated stove pipe, which is fine, people use it all the time, but you have to be more aware of the flue temps as an exterior chimney will cool faster than an interior chimney. regardless of what stove is being used.

Do you have a stove thermometer? they are really helpful in maintaining good burning temps, as you can see what is going on with the flue and ensuring you are staying above the 250 min requirement to stay in the safe zone.

I think you are finding there is a lot more to proper wood heating than people realize. I learn more every season which is why I stay on the site.

Just keep asking questions and taking advice and you will be heating your house safely and comfortably with wood before you know it.

 

[coaly]

I assume that is double wall Class A Chimney ?? It could be fireplace chimney which is not rated high enough for a controlled combustion wood stove.
The bottom clean out is pictured open with no cap. It is sealed with something when in operation, correct?

 

[ramzzey13]

After viewing photos I am not sure it is a double wall (how do i tell do I need to look down from the top?) . I will have to double check tomorrow. Yes it has a cap that I removed to get that measurement. The cap securely fastens to cover and seals that clean out opening. The more I am thinking about it maybe I should hire someone to come and look at my stove and pipe (and get their advice as to what I need exactly). I do not think I will have issues installing myself but I'm not sure what I will need. With a newborn in the house I will not take any chances either (it will be done to code and correctly) . Does anyone have recommendations on chimney inspections for piece of mind etc. (Northeast Ohio)?

 

[vasten]

LOL I wrote all of this all out earlier in my reply but deleted it thinking you already may have known it. The easiest way to know what you have short of climbing on the roof and removing the cap and looking down would be to measure the circumference of the pipe. Reason you need to do this from the top is because you need to see the thickness of the pipe wall, which you cant see from the bottom up because of the brace it is sitting on.

from duratech their specs are:
6" DuraTech Stainless Steel Chimney Pipe - 24" length

• 6" inner diameter, 8" outer diameter
• Double wall construction
• Twist-lock construction for easy installation
• Subtract 1 1/4" from each length of pipe for install length

If you have 7 3/4 in pipe as it looks in your picture the diameter of the pipe on top of the rest will have a 10 in diameter we will say for arguments sake.

The circumference of a 10 in diameter pipe would be 31.42 inches. If it is single wall pipe that is 7.75 inches would be 24.35

Easiest way to measure this is to wrap a string around the outside of the pipe and measure the string.... if it comes out over 2 and a half feet in length then you have some form of insulated pipe.

If you decide that it needs to be changed out, there are a lot of good DIY kits at the box stores and really easy to do, I did most of mine myself but did need an extra set of hands when it came time to go through the roof.

 

[coaly]

Measuring won't tell you if it is double wall connector pipe, or 2100* rated Class A Chimney. You need to find a label or have someone who knows what it is tell you.
As vasten describes above, there are two chimney types. "Pack" which is normally stainless steel inside with dense insulation between inner and outer wall. They are quite heavy and lock together with a twist. You can see and feel them at Lowe's under the Supervent brand name.
The other type is triple wall with a thin wrap of insulation between inner stainless liner and second pipe, and finally an outer pipe with air space between second and outer. They also twist lock together. You can see and feel them at Home Depot sold under Dura-Vent brand.
They are both rated the same and safe.
Prefab chimney for fireplace only is not rated as high since a fireplace flue stays much hotter and burns much cleaner since you don't have precise air control. In the case of creosote formed by an air tight stove, they can burn through or melt and may not withstand a chimney fire.
If you have single wall connector pipe, it is not a chimney at all and outside air cools the inner wall rapidly. It will not stay hot enough inside and will not draft properly to evacuate smoke or cause the needed pressure differential to make a stove work.

 

[ramzzey13]

Ok sorry all I know its been a few weeks, life happens. Finally measured the chimney pipe, its ~32" . I haven't had time to check the stuff out at lowes or HD like you suggested coaly, but I do have a top rated (at least the reviews are) chimney inspector coming on Saturday. He charges $50.00 bucks to do the inspection and when he comes I will basically ask him these questions I have and have him give me a estimate as well for what he suggests.

I am also worried about the NC-30 now for my house. The sq ft of my house is only 1600 (its a raised ranch) plus the attached two car garage which I wanted to heat as well (there is a door to the garage about 25 ft where the stove will be sitting). Am I going to run into issues with the NC-30 because they recommend it for 2400 sq ft. After getting a few books from the library (the encyclopedia) I starting to wonder if the "bigger is better" with a stove is not the case. People have said you "can just make smaller fires". Is this true or should I get a smaller stove? I do like the NC-30 though b/c of the large fire box (all the wood I have been preparing and splitting is about 20" long).

Thanks as always for everyone's help.

 

[vasten]

My personal opinion is bigger is better, when you consider that 2400 sq ft sounds like a lot of area. However you have to take into consideration what zone you live in, a stove that heats 2400 sq ft in Virginia would probably struggle to heat 2400 sq ft in Maine. How well is your house insulated, how windy is it there etc... there is a lot that you have to take into consideration when planning on heating with wood, (trust me I am still learning and adjusting) The first stove I bought was a pellet stove that I was told would more than heat my house, after I installed it I noticed it wasn't performing as expected, when I called the dealer up and complained he said that at an outside temperature of 35 degrees it would more than heat my house, well that winter we seldom saw days above 20 degrees. Was the dealer technically wrong, no because that is what they are rated at under those conditions. but in reality it didn't work for me. Had I lived in an area where temperature seldom fell below freezing I am sure it would have worked as they claimed.

There has been a lot of debating going on regarding how stoves are rated because they are always testing using ideal conditions, and wood that is ideal, and with wood may not even be with a type of wood you have access to, the wood that you burn has different BTU's even. White oak for example will burn a lot hotter than silver maple, or pine.

IF you are going to build smaller fires, that does not mean you can run the stove cooler, it means that you have to run small hot fires enough to keep your flue temps above 250 to be in the safe zone so you are not creating creosote. You wont get as much heat out of it as you would if it were stuffed to the gills but you will have moderate heat.

Also I noticed you said the wood you are preparing, how long has it been split? Seasoning of wood really starts after the wood has been split. The EPA stoves are very picky about moisture content, it should be below 20-22% moisture content. It would be a good idea to spend $20.00 on a moisture meter to make sure the wood is under that 22% or you will have a lot of problems getting that stove to perform.

 

[ramzzey13]

Thanks for the quick response. I will stay with my original stove the Nc30 then, which is good for me!

I will need to read and learn how to build smaller fires. That well come more when I get the stove. I will do my research when that time comes.

I am splitting wood now. Its white ash, which I'm sure you know has a density slightly less than red oak. I'm studying all the different fuel types now in all the literature I have gotten. Anyhow you mentioned the stove I'm looking at is particular about fuel moisture content (most people's problems with this stove come from moisture and drafting), well that's good because I am know as the perfectionist and I'm am very detail oriented. I wanted my moisture to be around 18%. And to be fairly consistent so I can tune in my burns.

I saw some meters on amazon. If you have time or experience can you recommend a particular one? Will this one be fine:

http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Meter®-MD-...&qid=1453999594&sr=8-3&keywords=Wood+moisture

Thanks again!

 

[vasten]

I have never used a moisture meter personally for my wood, although I probably should to spot check myself, but if I were I would buy this one... if you have a HD near you it might be better than amazon, then you can ask someone in person about it..others here probably have more experience with them that I do.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/General-...ter-with-LED-Bar-Graph-Display-MM1E/100651810

Ash is a decent wood for quick to season wood, I am sure in your research you may have found the poem about wet or dry a king can dry his slippers by or something like that. I have burned a lot of it and I have a local guy that I buy from exclusively now, when I run low because he only sells ash in the winter for guys like me that run out. get it split and stacked out of the elements (under a tarp is fine) bring it in the house a day or two before you will need it to give it time to warm up and dry out a touch more. Get a good hot bed of coals and it should take right off.

Once you have your chimney inspection and tell him what you are planning on installing he can tell you if the chimney is rated for a stove and may have some input on how that stoves works in your area from other customers of his.

Then once you have it all installed, just sit back and enjoy it. burning wood can and probably will be both a pain, and enjoying as you get it all tuned in to your style. And don't be afraid to ask questions,

 

[begreen]

There are several moisture meter threads in the Gear forum here.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/the-gear.7/