purchasing flex liner for new stove

[davenorthshorema]

I have been going nutz trying to buy a liner 6"x20 flex liner kit but wasn't sure if I should go top of the line or buy something that is .005 thickness. What would you all recommend. I am on a budget and this is the part that is killing me. Thanks all!!

 

[rfalk]

I bought 35' of new SS/ti Forever Flex on Ebay (someone had bought a fireplace inventory that went out of business) for $112. Cheap, Cheap, Cheap. However, the shipping was $150 from central Iowa to Wisconsin (the pipe only weighted 40 lbs, but the box was oversize, which kills you on shipping)....still did ok....$260 for 35'. Keep your eyes open on ebay and search on craigslist, that is, if you have the time to wait for a deal (I started my searching in April). good luck, bob

 

[davenorthshorema]

Thanks for the help Bob. I will keep a look out for the bargains. Thank you!!

 

[gangsplatt]

Bought my Flex King liner and wrap around insulation (6" x 30') kit includes everything even the rain cap for $575. Would have been cheaper if I hadn't bought the insulation. Check out the link below to

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-x-20-FLEX-KIN...41987QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

This link is for one without insulation, I believe they have one with insulation for $550.

Was a smooth transaction for me, would definitely recommend them.

 

[esh21167]

If you have some local chimney sweeps, try them. The sweep who always cleaned my fireplace chimney in the past got me a 6" x 30' kit for about $125 less than I could buy it online from the manufacturer.

 

[gzecc]

Do not purchase ventinox products. I just purchased a boot (for the stove outlet) and a 57" liner for over $325. I confirmed with the dealer that they would fit together before I purchased them.
The liner is 1/2 an inch smaller than the boot. They say it is fine and they won't do anything about it. I expected a better fit. They say it is satisfactory and I should put door gasket rope in the space if I felt it was necessary! Another example of excellant customer service here in the US!

 

[theheatelement]

I am a manufacture of chimney flex and can help if need be... If you have any questions please feel free to let me know... I can also hook you up with an online wholesaler to get you really good pricing... If you buy another brand of liner please feel free to ask me as well as I am willing to help you on your install.

 

[sl7vk]

Do not purchase ventinox products. I just purchased a boot (for the stove outlet) and a 57" liner for over $325. I confirmed with the dealer that they would fit together before I purchased them.
The liner is 1/2 an inch smaller than the boot. They say it is fine and they won't do anything about it. I expected a better fit. They say it is satisfactory and I should put door gasket rope in the space if I felt it was necessary! Another example of excellant customer service here in the US!

I found Ventinox to be excellent.

 

[PARAL]

I am in the same boat and am struggling to no end. I have an active Topic where I recently posted this

"I have been reading a bunch about the different quality of SS Liners.

A few conclusions that I am coming to in my own mind are:
- the smoother the interior is the better your draft (http://www.protechinfo.com/c269/FasNSmooth-c270.html)
- the smoother the interior is the easier the cleaning
- the smoother the interior is the less creosote can get embedded into crevices
- the 316Ti is a better quality product than the others
- the welded seems are better than crimped seems (http://www.protechinfo.com/c269/Ventinox-c9.html)
- the stronger the better ((broken link removed))

I really just want the best product for the cheapest price. I don’t want to just go and buy the most expensive ones available just because they are expensive and have good advertising. I want to buy a liner that will serve me well for many years in all areas of typical use."

Hey mods, would it be good to have a sticky for all of us newbies on what is important and non important when buying a liner? i.e. what is worth extra money and what isn't ... or does it just come down to personal preference and budget?

 

[gzecc]

All companies have problems. The better companies resolve problems when they come up. Bad companies pretend there isn't a problem and speak about quality and customer service in the next breath.

 

[theheatelement]

Let's be careful when quoting certain products.. Just because protech states welding is better over crimped.. doesn't mean it's true.. I've seen welded pipe fall apart just as I have seen crimped pipe fall apart, it's all in the quality of the manufacture.

I am in the same boat and am struggling to no end. I have an active Topic where I recently posted this

"I have been reading a bunch about the different quality of SS Liners.

A few conclusions that I am coming to in my own mind are:
- the smoother the interior is the better your draft (http://www.protechinfo.com/c269/FasNSmooth-c270.html)
- the smoother the interior is the easier the cleaning
- the smoother the interior is the less creosote can get embedded into crevices
- the 316Ti is a better quality product than the others
- the welded seems are better than crimped seems (http://www.protechinfo.com/c269/Ventinox-c9.html)
- the stronger the better ((broken link removed))

I really just want the best product for the cheapest price. I don’t want to just go and buy the most expensive ones available just because they are expensive and have good advertising. I want to buy a liner that will serve me well for many years in all areas of typical use."

Hey mods, would it be good to have a sticky for all of us newbies on what is important and non important when buying a liner? i.e. what is worth extra money and what isn't ... or does it just come down to personal preference and budget?

 

[PARAL]

Let's be careful when quoting certain products.. Just because protech states welding is better over crimped.. doesn't mean it's true.. I've seen welded pipe fall apart just as I have seen crimped pipe fall apart, it's all in the quality of the manufacture.

Valid point ... the consumer is dependent truthful advertisements from each company stating why their product is superior. Well actually I am asking here because I don't want to just trust what the advertisements are saying as inerrant truth.

OK, so conclusion here is that we should choose with a company that has a good reputation in the forums, etc.

 

[sl7vk]

This thread helped guide me in my decision, particularly the Webmaster's posts......

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/9565/

 

[oconnor]

Something that came up in my install of a liner done last week by a WETT certified tech, was the issue of insulating the liner.

My install is in a 75 Y/O masonary chimney that has combustables touching the brick exterior in many locations. After the install was complete, I came across the metal tag that the UL folks require, and noted the comment that the liner met UL1777 when installed in a masonary flu with 1 inch of airspace around the exterior of the flu, and that insulation was required to meet a zero clearance spec when the 1 inch air space was not respected. When I asked the owner/tech about this, he indicated that he has never installed insulation, nor has he heard of the requirement.

Update - I first posted this refering to UL1777 but should have refered to the tag covering CAN/ULC S635-M90/S640-M91 and ANSI/UL 1777/UL-641/UL-441.

Note that I came across this info only on the metal tag, not the install instructions, and not the manufacturers web site, and not from the WETT certified tech/business owner.

Yesterday I confirmed the specs with the manufacturer, which require a 1/2 inch wrap/clamps/mesh that retail for roughly $400 Canadian. Keep in mind that the dimensions/requirements will vary with the product/manufacturer used. he also noted that he sells 2400 liner systems a year, and maybe 100 insulation kits. When I asked why the instructions don't mention the insulation requirement, he didn't have a good answer, just to say that the tech needs to know his products.

I have raised the question again with the installer, and will not settle for it not being insulated, even if I need to pay for an extra uninstall/reinstall. I know I shouldn't have to, but first I'll get it done right, then I'll deal with money issues.

Have any of the more experienced readers out there tried to tilt at this windmill before?

It seems problematic to me that a product's instructions not include the specs for all install situations. To draw a parralell to kids car seats for a moment - if the instruction manual has an error in them, then Transpot Canada issues a recall notice, and forces the company to fix the issue. This installer likely has more than one install done wrong in this area, and I doubt those folks will ever find out about it.

Given the ambiguous regulatory system around wood heat in Canada (WETT is a voluntary system, and building permits are not required where I live to install inserts in a fireplace, and just because the guy has a WETT certification doesn't mean he is right, just like any other certified trade .i.e. electricians, despite building code requirements and UL testing), I can see some trouble this year as oil goes up and stoves go in.

I am going to detail the situation as described above to my local Deputy Fire Chief, who has agreed to raise it to the local Fire Marshalls office, and in the end I hope to raise some awareness on this issue.

Please note that I have intentionally not discussed names/places, as the issue here is not who did what, but that the system as a whole failed but for a small metal tag I found in a bag after the job was done.

I would love to hear your comments on the issue, especially as I'm sure some of you out there have either made the same mistake as an installer, work in the liner industry/fire prevention/WETT organisation.

Brent O'Connor
Nova Scotia, Canada

Jotul C450 Kennebec - cold at the moment

 

[PARAL]

Can anyone direct where to buy Ventinox?

Here are the online retailers that I found so far:
(broken link removed) - Ventinox, Homesaver, Heat-Fab
http://chimneydepotsupply.com - Generic Brand Single and Double Ply
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com - Flex King, Flex King Pro
http://www.chimneylinerinc.com - Rock-Flex =? Forever-Flex
http://www.cjshomedecor.com - Homesaver, Forever-Flex
(broken link removed) - Forever-Flex

Feel free to add to the list.

 

[branchburner]

In talking to a few sweeps and stove shops recently, it seems almost none of them want to insulate a liner install. I only know about the benefits of insulating from all the good folks on this forum. I'm going to try to do mine on the cheap with loose perlite.

 

[sl7vk]

Can anyone direct where to buy Ventinox?

Here are the online retailers that I found so far:
(broken link removed) - Ventinox, Homesaver, Heat-Fab
http://chimneydepotsupply.com - Generic Brand Single and Double Ply
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com - Flex King, Flex King Pro
http://www.chimneylinerinc.com - Rock-Flex =? Forever-Flex
http://www.cjshomedecor.com - Homesaver, Forever-Flex
(broken link removed) - Forever-Flex

Feel free to add to the list.

I bought from

(broken link removed)

and was very happy with their price speed and service.

 

[Beanscoot]

"Something that came up in my install of a liner done last week by a WETT certified tech, was the issue of insulating the liner."

Brent,
It is possible that the standards in Canada are different from those in the US. You were referring to a UL standard which is not applicable to Canada. Here we have the CSA (Canadian Standards Association) which approves products used in Canada. So an installation that is correct in the US may not be correct in Canada and vise versa. For instance it is likely that you would not get approval to install a woodstove that was privately imported to Canada if it had a UL listing but not CSA approval.

I would visit the installer again and request he search in the packaging, shipping containers or paperwork reference to a CSA approval for this liner. If you could find such, then you could presumably research the appropriate CSA standard to find installation requirements.

 

[oconnor]

Beanscoot

Thanks for calling me on the misquote of the spec. Tsun Tsu says in The Art of War - "The start of wisdom is calling things by thier right names"

The tag covers CAN/ULC S635-M90/S640-M91 and ANSI/UL 1777/UL-641/UL-441
As well, the product is a Canadian Product, and my discussion with the company focused on Canadian install requirements.

For the US side, here is a good Best Practices pamphlet I was refered to from another site:
(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/chimneys/bplinerretailers.pdf) and
(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/chimneys/bplinerusers.pdf)

Brent

 

[Beanscoot]

Hmmm, so even according to the CSA it's not kosher.

“The start of wisdom is calling things by their right names”

Well in our society now which insists on euphemizing so much, it would appear that we are a long way from wisdom. I like those old gems of wisdom, those ancients must have done a lot more thinking than people do today.

 

[theheatelement]

www.northlineexpress.com - Magnaflex Industries

Can anyone direct where to buy Ventinox?

Here are the online retailers that I found so far:
(broken link removed) - Ventinox, Homesaver, Heat-Fab
http://chimneydepotsupply.com - Generic Brand Single and Double Ply
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com - Flex King, Flex King Pro
http://www.chimneylinerinc.com - Rock-Flex =? Forever-Flex
http://www.cjshomedecor.com - Homesaver, Forever-Flex
(broken link removed) - Forever-Flex

Feel free to add to the list.

 

[theheatelement]

When you are talking about clearances we are talking about combustiblies, "wood". so your flexible liner can actually be inside your masonary chimney and may touch the inside of the wall of your chimney and you WILL not need insulation... but some prefer it, it also depends on the liner you buy and whether it was tested by UL with insulation or not.

 

[oconnor]

When you are talking about clearances we are talking about combustiblies, "wood". so your flexible liner can actually be inside your masonary chimney and may touch the inside of the wall of your chimney and you WILL not need insulation... but some prefer it, it also depends on the liner you buy and whether it was tested by UL with insulation or not.

Actually, Selkirk products require 1 inch of airspace around the flex liner to conform with the specs, The TCE liner I have needs 1 inch airspace outside the flu when it does touch the inside brick.

The issue here is it all depends on what conditions the liner manufacturer specified to the testing lab (UL or CSA) when the test is done. That is the only approved install spec for the product, no more no less.

In some cases, I was unable to determine the install specs for a given liner when researching a product online, like the TCE I have. Couldn't find the install specs on the Magnaflex site either.

Here is a pic of the tag in question that came with my liner.

 

[theheatelement]

Correct because that is how it was tested, our liners were tested with 1" to combustibles but 0 " to masonary without insulation.

When you are talking about clearances we are talking about combustiblies, "wood". so your flexible liner can actually be inside your masonary chimney and may touch the inside of the wall of your chimney and you WILL not need insulation... but some prefer it, it also depends on the liner you buy and whether it was tested by UL with insulation or not.

Actually, Selkirk products require 1 inch of airspace around the flex liner to conform with the specs, The TCE liner I have needs 1 inch airspace outside the flu when it does touch the inside brick.

The issue here is it all depends on what conditions the liner manufacturer specified to the testing lab (UL or CSA) when the test is done. That is the only approved install spec for the product, no more no less.

In some cases, I was unable to determine the install specs for a given liner when researching a product online, like the TCE I have. Couldn't find the install specs on the Magnaflex site either.

Here is a pic of the tag in question that came with my liner.

 

[oconnor]

It is too bad that customers cannot find that information on most liner manufacturers websites, ( ;-)) to allow them to research the product before they get it home, open it up to read the instructions, and discover it does not meet their needs