Quadra Fire Mt Vernon stove: Power problem...

[YMaurice]

Greetings!

I have have an older Mt Vernon stove (2006) which refuse to start. In fact, there is nothing happening when plugged... The stove stopped after a power failure. When the current went back on, the stove worked for a few second, then went dead. I checked all the disk and fuses (main power and control box), and everything looks fine. There is no sign of power surge anywhere (like burn or blackened connectors).
I found an old control box taken from an older stove (same model), and tried it on. The stove started for 2 or 3 sec, then went dead again.
I'm a little worry about trying a new control box, without finding out what went wrong with the other 2 ... Does anyone has an idea about what could cause such a problem ?

Thanks for you help !

 

[Bkins]

Is your stove a AE or a older model. Is it run by a computer with the auto dump function? If your stove is not a AE when was the last time the batteries were changed in the thermostat system if you run one?

How mechanically inclined are you? You must have some mechanical handiness if you changed out the control boxes and did you know for a fact that the second control box was good.

Was the stove plugged into a surge surpressor at the time of the power failure?

The model of the stove, AE, or non AE is probably the most important question needing a answer.

 

[DMKNLD]

Hey YM, welcome to the forum.

2006 was the Quad year they phased out the non-AE MV stove models in favor of the the AE's. Is your stove the AE or non-AE ? The 1st generation of AE's brought allot of electrical controls and a plethora of sensors, which brought its own set of trouble shooting issues.

Did you have a quality surge protector in place when your power failed / re-energized ? If not, the control box could certainly be in question.

Did you have the stove unplugged when you removed and re-installed the control boxes? If not, the control box is often damaged when the stove is powered up while removing or installing the box.

Advise back on the status of those 3 questions and then we can better proceed from there, OK? Regards, DK

 

[DMKNLD]

Is your stove a AE or a older model. Is it run by a computer with the auto dump function? If your stove is not a AE when was the last time the batteries were changed in the thermostat system if you run one?

How mechanically inclined are you? You must have some mechanical handiness if you changed out the control boxes and did you know for a fact that the second control box was good.

Was the stove plugged into a surge surpressor at the time of the power failure?

The model of the stove, AE, or non AE is probably the most important question needing a answer.

Similar minds must think similarly, Bkins, a scary thought none-the-less, brother !!

 

[YMaurice]

Is your stove a AE or a older model. Is it run by a computer with the auto dump function? If your stove is not a AE when was the last time the batteries were changed in the thermostat system if you run one?

How mechanically inclined are you? You must have some mechanical handiness if you changed out the control boxes and did you know for a fact that the second control box was good.

Was the stove plugged into a surge surpressor at the time of the power failure?

The model of the stove, AE, or non AE is probably the most important question needing a answer.

It's an older model not AE. There is no battery in the thermostat. (It's a mercury switch thermostat.)

I cannot certified that it was good 100 %. What worry me most is the fact that the stove started for 2 or 3 second when I replaced it, then quit again.

The stove was not connected to a surge surpressor (but that is gonna change ...).

I checked and cleaned everything. I checked if the fan were turning easily, and they all seems to run freely. In regard to my mechanical ability, I think I can handle it...

 

[YMaurice]

Hey YM, welcome to the forum.

2006 was the Quad year they phased out the non-AE MV stove models in favor of the the AE's. Is your stove the AE or non-AE ? The 1st generation of AE's brought allot of electrical controls and a plethora of sensors, which brought its own set of trouble shooting issues.

Did you have a quality surge protector in place when your power failed / re-energized ? If not, the control box could certainly be in question.

Did you have the stove unplugged when you removed and re-installed the control boxes? If not, the control box is often damaged when the stove is powered up while removing or installing the box.

Advise back on the status of those 3 questions and then we can better proceed from there, OK? Regards, DK

It is an older model, not AE. There was no surge protector. And the stove was unplugged when I changed the controler...

I appreciate the help ...

 

[DMKNLD]

It's an older model not AE. There is no battery in the thermostat. (It's a mercury switch thermostat.)

I cannot certified that it was good 100 %. What worry me most is the fact that the stove started for 2 or 3 second when I replaced it, then quit again.

The stove was not connected to a surge surpressor (but that is gonna change ...).

I checked and cleaned everything. I checked if the fan were turning easily, and they all seems to run freely. In regard to my mechanical ability, I think I can handle it...

OK. Probably the next step is to take both of your control boxes to a local Quad dealer and see if they can test them. Typically a dealer could also swap your control box into their comparable floor model stove to see if it reproduces the issue in their stove. But your control box is the 4 speed type vs the newer 3 speed boxes that fit most other Quad stoves that it could be tested in. Unless you or your dealer knows someone else in your area who has a non-AE MV, which as I can determine is the only Quad that uses the 4 speed box.

As a shot-in-the-dark, you can try cleaning the electrical contacts on the control box with a clean pencil eraser and then blowing them clean with Dust Off / canned air, or better yet using electrical contact cleaner, then letting it dry prior to re-installing the box (stove unplugged).

Bkins or kap may have better info or a different suggestion, but I'm thinking it's your control box, FWIIW. DK

 

[DMKNLD]

Does your red 'call for heat' light stay on when the stove shuts down after the 2 - 3 secs?

 

[YMaurice]

Does your red 'call for heat' light stay on when the stove shuts down after the 2 - 3 secs?

No, it goes completely dead.. In fact, it restarted only once (with the red light on) when I put the older box in. After that, If I pull the control box out and replace it again, nothing happens. Stays dead... Is there a condition in there which would blow the control box consistently ? What if the blower motor pulls to much current ?

 

[stovelark]

Kap could confirm this but believe the control boxes to have its own fuse as well as the in-line (7 amp?) fuse for power protection. To troubleshoot power problems, the loads have to be isolated and then a good control box be available. I'd suspect the ignitor as the likeliest component to be perhaps shorted to ground, then the exhaust blower, etc. Some components can have power directly applied to them, but care must be taken. The 4 speed control box is still available, albeit is expensive. Good luck with it, I always liked the Quad speed MV. Bare wires that is perhaps shorting or a fuse cap/holder could be a suspect too.

 

[kappel15]

Things can look ok, but still be bad. You need to start at the source. Make sure you are getting power from the outlet. Then make sure there is power in the power cord. The only snap disc that would be involved in this is the #3 snap disc, as if it is tripped, it shuts power down to the whole stove. You can check the fuse also, that is by the red call light and junction box. Something is shorted out if it is popping control boxes like that. The fuse holder might have gotten hit and is shorting out. Just some things to look at. There is only a 1/2 amp fuse in the control box. And just for giggles, try jumping the two screws on the back of the stove, where the thermostat wires hook up to. If stove works, there is an issue with either the tstat or tstat wires. Red call light won't come on if stove isn't calling for heat. kap

 

[DMKNLD]

Stovelark is correct that there is a fuse in the control box as well as the 7 amp fuse in the junction box. I'm definitely not the Quad electrical 'go to' guy, but If you've checked the 7 amp fuse to see if it has blown, as well as all the wiring harness and electrical connections for absence of any visible melting or scorching, I don't see any downside to cracking your control box seal and looking for fused triacs or a blown internal fuse, that would confirm if it was your control box that took the surge.

That would at least help confirm whether it's worth hot wiring your exhaust blower with an external power cord to see if by chance your box survived, but shorted the exhaust blower, which is the first component to get 110v power once the thermostat calls for fire, and assuming your #3 snap disc isn't tripped. That's not too hard to do, and would confirm that your exhaust motor is OK, or not.

I made an external power source cord out of a cheapo 2 prong extension cord that I cut off the female end and stripped the 2 wires back a bit,then crimped on insulated female electrical spade connectors, that you can then hook up to the exhaust blower motor spade connectors. As always, the external power source cord and your stove need to be UNPLUGGED first ( standard disclaimers). I added some heavy duty heat shrink tubing at the insulated spade connectors to make sure the connections are absolutely bombproof. They are often called 'suicide cords' for a reason, given they are carrying 110v current that could certainly bite you, or worse, if you got zapped by it during your re-polarization phase of your heart's electrical rhythm (sorry, my Paramedic 'safety first' side talking there !)

I see kap signed on, I'll see what his thoughts are about cracking your control box once you've checked the other stuff mentioned. DK

 

[kappel15]

I'm sure the warranty has went the way of the buffalo on that control box a long time ago. lol No problem popping it open. But, there has to be something causing it to pop. And that will be not in the box. If something in it is toasted tho, if you can find someone with the knowledge of all its intricate parts, they might be able to tell what is shorting it out. That is above my pay grade. kap

 

[Bkins]

So I guess we are awaiting to know if the stove is getting proper power from the wall outlet and if so what happens when you jump the two thermostat screws together. Just to be sure, unplug the stove and disconnect the thermostat leads from your thermostat and then make a jumper wire to put between the stove thermostat screws, plug the stove back in and report back what happens. Did the stove turn on, do you see a red call light?

Anything else in the house showing signs of electrical distress after the storm?

 

[YMaurice]

So I guess we are awaiting to know if the stove is getting proper power from the wall outlet and if so what happens when you jump the two thermostat screws together. Just to be sure, unplug the stove and disconnect the thermostat leads from your thermostat and then make a jumper wire to put between the stove thermostat screws, plug the stove back in and report back what happens. Did the stove turn on, do you see a red call light?
out
Anything else in the house showing signs of electrical distress after the storm?

Well, took me a while to get to through some of the testing, but this is where am I sitting now... I took the exhaut blower out to test it on a standard outlet to see how it's running. When plugged on a standard 110 v 15 amp, everything looked good...
So, I cleaned the casing and blower very well, put it back together, turn thermostat on, and power it up... The 7 amp fuse burned up... I changed the fuse, turned off the thermostat, now the stove starts for 2 sec, then stops... If I unplug it and re-energized, it runs for 2 sec and stop again ...
My feeling is that the exhaust blower is pulling to much amp. Some how the system detect it and stop. When the lighter is on when the fan start, the fuse blow up.
So, since the blower is somewhere around $400, I would like your opinion regarding on the diagnostic that the fan have to be changed.

Again, thanks for your help...

 

[kappel15]

I would pull the igniter and check the wires. Sounds like a short in the wires. Some have found loose strands of wire that were shorting out on stove body. This may be what is blowing the fuse. As far as the other issue,i don't think it is the fan since you plugged it in separate and it ran fine. And the stove wouldn't know if the fan was running high or not. When the stove stops, is the red call light still on? And you can try running the stove with the igniter unplugged, just to eliminate it from shorting the fuse, while trying to get the stove to run. I would also jump #3 snap disc, making sure it can't short out on anything, to eliminate it as a source of shutting stove off. Stay in touch. kap

 

[DMKNLD]

Something, or combination of things, is shorting out and blowing your fuse. A dead short will more typically blow the fuse fast, as opposed to one that is drawing too much power that often smokes it before it blows. Since yours blows right away, I'm guessing it is less likely to be your blower motor drawing too much amps, as well as the fact that it works when hooked up to external 110v power.

Does your 7 amp fuse holder look damaged ? That would seem to be one of the first components to take a power surge hit, given that's what started the problems. I would open the control box and look for any obviously scorched triacs to at the least rule that in or out as an obvious problem area.

 

[YMaurice]

I would pull the igniter and check the wires. Sounds like a short in the wires. Some have found loose strands of wire that were shorting out on stove body. This may be what is blowing the fuse. As far as the other issue,i don't think it is the fan since you plugged it in separate and it ran fine. And the stove wouldn't know if the fan was running high or not. When the stove stops, is the red call light still on? And you can try running the stove with the igniter unplugged, just to eliminate it from shorting the fuse, while trying to get the stove to run. I would also jump #3 snap disc, making sure it can't short out on anything, to eliminate it as a source of shutting stove off. Stay in touch. kap

Well, here we go with an update...
I bypass the disk #3 and disconnected the lighter. Stove still starts, but stop after 3 or 4 sec. The red light remains on and is turning on and off when I raise or lower the thermostat. Since the blower is running for a while and then stops, I thought that it was sensing a clogged chimney, so I took it apart for a look, and It's clean as a whistle (a dusty one perhaps)... So I'm a bit out of idea.
How does the system detect an obstruction on the airway ? Can that be defective ?

 

[YMaurice]

Something, or combination of things, are shorting out and blowing your fuse. A dead short will more typically blow the fuse fast, as opposed to one that is drawing too much power that often smokes it before it blows. Since yours blows right away, I'm guessing it is less likely to be your blower motor drawing too much amps.

Does your 7 amp fuse holder look damaged ? That would seem to be one of the first components to take a power surge hit, given that's what started the problems. I would open the control box and look for any obviously scorched triacs to at the least rule that in or out as an obvious problem area.

The casing looks good. The fuse blew out only once, and I tried a combinaison of things since without other problems.
I changed the control box with an older one from another stove... That one did not see a surge. (I'm having the original one checked for damage, but apparently, it did not seem damaged). I'm beginning to think that my problem and the power outage was a coincidence (maybe !).
As I was mentionning to Kap, I also check the chimney for clogging, but no problem. What else can cause it to stop ?

 

[kappel15]

The only thing that would stop the exhaust fan from running is either bad wires, #3 snap disc(which shuts power off to whole stove, or the control box. Remember you had the fan running fine on outside power. Since you had the igniter unplugged, and a fuse didn't go, I would check it for a wire grounding out. Do you know someone with a stove like yours, you can try your box in their stove? Or see if someone on this forum that has your stove that is willing to try your box in their stove? Eliminates that issue rather cheaply then, with just shipping costs. And I don't think it was a coincidence. kap

 

[YMaurice]

The only thing that would stop the exhaust fan from running is either bad wires, #3 snap disc(which shuts power off to whole stove, or the control box. Remember you had the fan running fine on outside power. Since you had the igniter unplugged, and a fuse didn't go, I would check it for a wire grounding out. Do you know someone with a stove like yours, you can try your box in their stove? Or see if someone on this forum that has your stove that is willing to try your box in their stove? Eliminates that issue rather cheaply then, with just shipping costs. And I don't think it was a coincidence. kap

Thank you Kap. I have another control box at the electronic shop for a check up. I'll wait for it and see... I think that this the only thing left !