Quadrafire 4100i Question - Over my head?

[dewey]

Hi all.

I found the forum via google - trying to find any information on my current problem. I have to say it seems like a great place and has loads of good information. I'm wishing I had found this place before I bought my insert.

I bought my 4100i about two years ago while I was remodeling my family room. Due to doing everything myself (except for the insert install and flue lining) and trying to work for a living, last night was the first night I had the opportunity to use this unit. I'll also preface the remainder of my discuss (I tend to be long winded :red: ) that the previous insert was an old, heavy cast iron beast that basically just sat in the old fireplace firebox and vented into the firebox (no physical connection)... it was basically just like building a fire. Also, as far as background, I really stink at starting fires; it takes forever to get 'em going.

Anyway, after getting the two air intake knobs set per the manual, I lit the fire (just a small fire, some kindling and 2" dia. sticks). It started going pretty well. After about 10 minutes, I closed the "start-up" air control and waited a few more minutes to be sure everything was going fine. Then I closed the door and resumed watching football. At the next commercial break (about 5 minutes), I noticed that the fire was out and smoke filled the fire box. I'll spare the details of airing out the house

I got the fire restarted and could only keep it going by keeping the door fully open. With cats and dogs, I don't see that being my long term solution After another 40 minutes, I got the itch to see if the original problem could be repeated. I shut the door and watched the fire gradually die down. Interestingly enough, the fire at the logs migrated to a fire just below the baffle. It reminded me of backdraft. I slowly opened the insert door and noticed the rush of air into the firebox and the fire went back to "normal." I repeated this "test" after the fire got going again, only this time kept the start-up air vent open. Same results.

What I'm guessing is that I'm not getting any combustion air into the firebox, causing the dangerous (?) situation.

Any thoughts on how to correct? I'm secure enough to admit it might just be something I'm doing wrong Don't hesitate to tell me that.

Thanks so much!!

Dewey

 

[Andre B.]

I have to go so, short answer.

Wood is wet AND/OR for some reason you do not have much draft.

Edit;
If by startup air you mean the primary air supply, you do not have to and may not want to close it up all the way as long as temperatures stay under control.

 

[dewey]

Thanks for the quick reply

I thought about wet wood, but the fire was burning extremely well with the door open and even partially closed. Also, the wood I used initially had been sitting in the wood basket in my master bedroom (where I have a fireplace) since about this time last year.


Dewey

 

[Marty]

As to technique:
Try burning the smaller stuff with the air fully open until you have a bed of hot coals then add 4 smallish splits in a criss cross pattern on top... leave the air wide open until the wood is significantly charred and glowing like the coal bead... damper down by degrees and let the heat build up in the firebox. When you damper down you restrict the increase of the fire. The heat will increase because not as much goes up the chimney but the top end of the fire is restricted when you shut down the air.

As to draft:
How tall is your chimney? - and when you damper down with a hot fire (300 F+) can you hear wistleing air being sucked in to the firebox?

 

[Corie]

Also, the flames you saw coming from the tubes located in the top of the appliance are the secondary flames. They are expected and in fact a necessary part of clean burning.

That said, the startup air on the quadrafire means you should never have to leave the door ajar to start a fire. With stoves like Jotul, my own stove, etc, since there only a primary air control, the door normally has to be left open until the chimnney is sufficiently heated to draft properly.

In your case, you should be able to open primary and start up air, and simply light the fire, perhaps just having to hold lit newspaper to get the draft moving in the right direction, if your flue tends to reverse.

Your instruction manual says to open primary and start-up air, light the fire and close the door. With the primary and start up open, a pretty large amount of air is able to rush into the firebox (THe startup air holes are HUGE). If, with both controls fully open and the door shut you can't get the fire to start rolling on its own, you have a draft problem.

Any chance the flue is partially obstructed? Where is the ceramic insulation blanket that sits on top of the baffle? Is it stuck in the flue outlet of the stove? Is the liner insulated?

 

[dewey]

Marty - Thanks for the notes on technique. That's definitely better than my current
method I'll give it a try this weekend. The chimney is about 4 feet taller than the roof,
about 18 feet up at its highest. No air being sucked into the firebox at all, whisteling or otherwise.

Corie - Also Thanks! I didn't see any tubes at the top of the appliance in the baffel. there are two
rather large tubes in the back wall of the fire box... Also, with the fire at the top of the firebox,
shouldn't there be some flames at the log/coals level?

I did another test last night where I got a good fire going with the door open, nice bed of coals and
burned for nearly an hour. I made sure both controls were fully open and shut the door. Same situation
I described in my first post.

Draft problem certainly sounds logical. The ceramic blanket on top of the baffle is laying flat and
does not appear to be blocking the flue outlet. The flue liner is insulated. I don't think its blocked
as it has a flue cap over it and was connected to the unit on its install. I did burn hold a burning
torch like mass of paper above the baffle to warm the flue and definitely thought the flame/smoke was being
drawn up there better than it was with my last insert there...

Thanks for all the help so far folks...

Dewey

 

[velvetfoot]

I also have a quadrafire insert, a 2700i.
Is there any way you could have mistakenly pulled OUT the main air control and closed off the air instead of pushing the control IN to open it?

 

[Jay H]

I was thinking the same as velvetfoot but the OP did write "Anyway, after getting the two air intake knobs set per the manual" which makes me think that the manual was read.

In any case, pushing the two rods into the stove/insert opens the air intakes for both primary and the secondary air intakes and pulling them towards you and away from the stove/insert closes the valves.... Is that your method?

Jay

 

[Corie]

Dewey,

Check again on the tubs being in the top of the firebox. You're probably just mistaken or didn't notice them, but from your manual, as well as every quadrafire I've seen, you've got a set of four stainless steel tubes that the ceramic baffle sits on top of.

Those tubes in the back of the firebox, which face the window are the entrance for the start=up air, when its being used.


And not to jump on the bandwagon, but I'm with velvet and jay here, atleast temporarily. Are you sure you've got the air controls open?

 

[jldunn]

I've got a 4100i myself. With dry wood I can get a little bit of kindling flaming in about a minute, close the door with both air intakes fully open (pushed in), and in about 15 minutes have my firebox pretty much completely filled with flame, like a giant fireball.

If your flue was blocked I'd think you'd get smoke in your house regardless of whether the door was open or not (i.e. nowhere for the smoke to go but in the house). That makes me think that your air intakes are blocked. Maybe have the installer come take a look at it? It's a pain to take that front face off and look around. I wonder if someone did something silly like block the air intake with insulation, maybe put some sealant between the front plate and the fireplace brick.

 

[Andre B.]

I've got a 4100i myself. With dry wood I can get a little bit of kindling flaming in about a minute, close the door with both air intakes fully open (pushed in), and in about 15 minutes have my firebox pretty much completely filled with flame, like a giant fireball.

If your flue was blocked I'd think you'd get smoke in your house regardless of whether the door was open or not (i.e. nowhere for the smoke to go but in the house). That makes me think that your air intakes are blocked. Maybe have the installer come take a look at it? It's a pain to take that front face off and look around. I wonder if someone did something silly like block the air intake with insulation, maybe put some sealant between the front plate and the fireplace brick.

What it is sounding like, to me anyway, is air leaking into the pipe or chimney someplace.

 

[dewey]

Wow... thanks for all the replies and suggestions!

There is some question as to my ability to operate the air controls properly. :red: I can say that during my initial go at this Sunday night, I definitely did have issues figuring out the air controls. But as my GF would say, that's what she's for. She got me on the right path with those. Controls are definitely pushed all the way in.

I'll double check the tubes in the top of the firebox to be sure they are not obstructed. I'll also remove the trim set and check to see if there are any other obvious obstructions...

Thanks!

Dewey

 

[velvetfoot]

I wonder if there could be some blockage caused by (mis)assembly related to an outside air kit. I'd think that MountainStoveGuy would be the authoritative source on Quads.

 

[dewey]

Velvet - No outside air kit installed at this point. Probably something to consider for the future?

Corie - Duh. My bad. They are certainly there and are perforated. I had just assumed they were there to support the baffle and didn't look closely enough at them to make that connection.

Next steps? Probably need to take the insert out and inspect?


I don't know why I'm having such an issue with this... its just fire... Its been around for a long time and, no offense to the cavemen of the world, cavemen could do it Thanks for the continued help.

Dewey

 

[velvetfoot]

http://content.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/man_4100i.pdf , figure 13B
I wonder if the inside air inlet got plugged somehow.

 

[Marty]

http://content.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/man_4100i.pdf , figure 13B
I wonder if the inside air inlet got plugged somehow.

It sure does sound like a restriction at one or more air inletts.

Sounds like the inspection will be revealing Dewey. Try to take some pics with a digital canmera. you can stick them in hard to reach areas that you can light to get a better view and use a computer to zoom in and enhance the pic.

 

[dewey]

Sorry for the apparent abandonment of the thread. I had to arrange some help to get the surround off and that took some bribing (and almost a miracle).

I have determined that the "outside air" inlets were capped off. I've removed the metal plugs and replaced them on the air inlets on the front of the insert.

I'll get back with an update later tonight or tomorrow with the results of the fire I'm about to start.

Wish me luck hh:

 

[velvetfoot]

I don't understand. The picture on page 13 of the installation manual says that if you are installing outside air to remove the rear plugs and place them on the front. You said you don't have outside air.
I don't understand.

 

[dewey]

Velvet,

I don't quite understand either...

I can say that the original issue of needing to keep the door open to get enough air into the insert to keep the fire going has been resolved. The unit worked wonderfully last night, in spite of my poor fire management skills.

They only assumption I can make is that with the "inside" air vents open, they must have been nearly completely blocked by the trim set (which has a small vent in each side, a little above the intakes). Maybe opening up the intakes that are inside the "firebox" of the old fireplace allowed for enough air to get in.

I'm not sure why....

Now I need to master the art of burning a hot wood fire.

Thanks for all the help

Dewey

 

[velvetfoot]

Does the trim kit have vents on it that might have been blocked?
Hopefully you'll be able to get enough air in your setup.

 

[dewey]

The trim kit does have vents that are mostly aligned to the front air vents. However, I think they are offset from each other enough that the trim kit acted as a blocker for the airflow. The rear inlets only had the screw on plates that I should have removed to begin with

I think the unit is now set-up correctly... :cheese:

 

[velvetfoot]

Okie dokie. I just wish I could fit in a 4100i.

 

[Dustin]

Bringing this thread up from the depths with the same issue.

I bought my quad 4100i used, with the "outside air" plates removed from the back, and placed on the front. The manual says that you are to do this when installing an outside air kit. The manual says nothing about air being drawn from the front, when not using an OAK.


Well last winter I installed the insert, not knowing I needed to replace the OAK plates. It ran great, but I wanted to do it "right" so I pulled the insert out, and pulled the plates off the front, and placed them where the OAK kit hooks up. And ever since, the insert runs like crap and does exactly what the author of this thread states.

So, my question, could I have a block somewhere? is it OK to have the air pulling from the rear of the insert, instead of the front?

 

[granpajohn]

There is another thread around here somewhere where the OP eventually made his 4100i work by swapping those plates. I am not the only one who didn't understand why it worked, but the user was quite certain it worked and was happy. (I would try to find the thread, but "search" function hasn't worked for me for about 6 months.)

Anyway, having said that...I read the OP of this thread and considered it (more or less) normal for my QF also. My problem is partly a cold exterior chimney. The reason I don't seek to increase the draft is that it can actually have slightly too much draft when it's good and hot. If I was one of those 24/7 burners, it wouldn't come up.

As it is, I always keep the door open (ajar) for start up. The start up air is just not enough. Once its rolling, there's generally no problem.

I'd like to say that I find the QF manual lacking, and I think they should publish a drawing of the exact path combustion air follows in these stoves. Very difficult to know how the air controls work, and they are not too well made. They need to be looked after. It would help to know how they are designed.

I might consider pulling out my OAK plates too. The air all comes from the same place anyway. We'll see what others have to say in response to your post, eh?