Question on Modines

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dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
Are there Modines available large enough to heat an open 916 square foot space with 8' ceilings. I'm building a 28' x 32' woodworking shop connected to my garage, and one end of my Tarm Solo Innova's 1000 gallon storage tank is adjacent to one wall of the shop. I'm thinking maybe I could hook a modine up to the tank to heat the shop, whenever it may be in use. If so, I've got to figure a way to keep the modine from freezing too, whenever the shop is not in use during the winter. Any thoughts on either matter will be appreciated. Thanks,

Mike
 
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brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
6,276
NE Ohio
What are you referring to?
The Modines I am familar with are gas/LP unit heaters that hang from the ceiling of the garage...
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,595
Northern Maine
I think it will not have enough hot water from storage for long term heat.
My experience with them is running them off 180 degree water.
 

hedge wood

Burning Hunk
Mar 1, 2009
199
Eastern NE
Saying Modines is like saying Kleenex. Its a brand. Lots of different Modines from gas units to hot water to steam units. When I did maintenance at a factory we had them all. It would have to be sized to your water temp and then since your not going to heat all the time you would need probably need this on a heat exchanger in your boiler area so you would have antifreeze in you Modines to keep from breaking them. There are better ways to heat that area.
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
Appreciate all your input. I'm not at all sure how I'm going to heat that area, Maybe a hot water Modine isn't a viable idea from what you all are saying. One of those less expensive forced hot air gasifiers that operate like the Kuuma line, rather than a boiler, might be a better solution. I'll have to look up what they cost and their build quality. I do have a 300(?) gallon propane tank nearby if I wanted to go that route. But I haven't spent a penny for fuel over the past five years with the Tarm Solo Innova in use, and would hate to start paying for fuel again. I 'm only thinking out loud here, maybe foolishly, about a possible way to cut building costs by utilizing the existing heating system to heat the shop.

Gencop, radiant would probably mean frozen pipes in the winter as I only anticipate using the shop intermittently.

Hedge wood, appreciate your idea of a hx with antifreeze, I hadn't thought of that.

Bad LP- I do heat my 3000 sq ft. home off that 1000 gallons storage, but am also concerned adding the load of 916 square feet, even for only intermittent heating, would overtax the system. Good point.

Brenndatomu, like hedge wood mentioned, they do make modines that work off hot water, although the ones you describe are probably more commonplace.

Mike
 

GENECOP

Minister of Fire
Jan 31, 2014
734
Ny
Appreciate all your input. I'm not at all sure how I'm going to heat that area, Maybe a hot water Modine isn't a viable idea from what you all are saying. One of those less expensive forced hot air gasifiers that operate like the Kuuma line, rather than a boiler, might be a better solution. I'll have to look up what they cost and their build quality. I do have a 300(?) gallon propane tank nearby if I wanted to go that route. But I haven't spent a penny for fuel over the past five years with the Tarm Solo Innova in use, and would hate to start paying for fuel again. I 'm only thinking out loud here, maybe foolishly, about a possible way to cut building costs by utilizing the existing heating system to heat the shop.

Gencop, radiant would probably mean frozen pipes in the winter as I only anticipate using the shop intermittently.

Hedge wood, appreciate your idea of a hx with antifreeze, I hadn't thought of that.

Bad LP- I do heat my 3000 sq ft. home off that 1000 gallons storage, but am also concerned adding the load of 916 square feet, even for only intermittent heating, would overtax the system. Good point.

Brenndatomu, like hedge wood mentioned, they do make modines that work off hot water, although the ones you describe are probably more commonplace.

Mike
Mike , the radiant piping if that’s what your referring to will not freeze, you will run a Glycol mix. Also radiant is very efficient, once the slab is up to temp, the load will not be that much.
 

GENECOP

Minister of Fire
Jan 31, 2014
734
Ny
Another interesting approach, use your LP, this is a pretty straight forward setup..
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
Genecop, If I put in a water to water/glycol mix hx, as hedge wood mentioned, that could be doable. But I do need something that would heat the space quickly. and then be shut down quickly when I exit the shop. Radiant in floor probably wouldn't meet that parameter and I'd like to do something simpler. If I wasn't concerned with air pollution and smoking out the neighbors I'd probably get a wood stove in there and call it good.
 
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GENECOP

Minister of Fire
Jan 31, 2014
734
Ny
Genecop, If I put in a water to water/glycol mix hx, as hedge wood mentioned, that could be doable. But I do need something that would heat the space quickly. and then be shut down quickly when I exit the shop. Radiant in floor wouldn't meet that parameter.
Maybe a good place to start would be to have a heat load calculation done. If you can support the new space off the existing system then Hydronic system would meet your needs, you just need an air handler and some ducting to distribute the heat..It would warm up quickly, and distribute the heat as needed.
If the existing system can’t support the additional heat load, then the conversation can go in several different directions,.
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
That's a good thought Genecop. Right about now when I'm only burning about one load of wood a day to heat the house and storage. It wouldn't be a big deal to throw in a second load if I wanted to work out in the shop. Might take a third load in the dead of the winter, but again doable.

A second water to air heat exchanger, like the one I have in the house, placed in the boiler room over an air handler would do the trick. There would be no worry about freezing and the hot air could be ducted out to the shop, only sixteen feet away. Excellent thinking on your part. I think you have come up with a winner here. I will carefully consider your plan, size out the needed w/a hx, ducting, and air handler needed. I hadn't considered that approach at all. Thank you so much.

Your new friend,

Mike
 
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hedge wood

Burning Hunk
Mar 1, 2009
199
Eastern NE
That's a good thought Genecop. Right about now when I'm only burning about one load of wood a day to heat the house and storage. It wouldn't be a big deal to throw in a second load if I wanted to work out in the shop. Might take a third load in the dead of the winter, but again doable.

A second water to air heat exchanger, like the one I have in the house, placed in the boiler room over an air handler would do the trick. There would be no worry about freezing and the hot air could be ducted out to the shop, only sixteen feet away. Excellent thinking on your part. I think you have come up with a winner here. I will carefully consider your plan, size out the needed w/a hx, ducting, and air handler needed. I hadn't considered that approach at all. Thank you so much.

Your new friend,

Mike
This is how I heat my basement of my house I put a Goodman air handler in with a ECM fan mounted a water to air coil on top have duct work running threw my basement. I even installed a electric coil in the air handler for a back up to the Garn. It work great.
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
Glad to hear this setup works for you hedge wood. No reason it shouldn't here. Now I've got to remember how I went about getting the custom water to air hx coil, sitting over my Goodman furnace, sized, plus the airflow needed to size the air handler. Searching out some old posts here might jog my memory.

Which Garn do you have? They had just come out with that smaller size Garn Jr. when I was last involved with this kind of thing. The Garns were a bit out of reach to purchase at the time, but I would have loved to have one.

Mike
 
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E Yoder

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2017
555
Floyd, VA
Genecop, If I put in a water to water/glycol mix hx, as hedge wood mentioned, that could be doable. But I do need something that would heat the space quickly. and then be shut down quickly when I exit the shop. Radiant in floor probably wouldn't meet that parameter and I'd like to do something simpler. If I wasn't concerned with air pollution and smoking out the neighbors I'd probably get a wood stove in there and call it good.
I use a fair number of hydronic unit heaters to raise the temp quickly in a shop, then drop again when you don't need the heat. Not as comfortable as radiant but perfect for intermittent use. Radiant is set it and forget it.
Keeping a unit heater near the floor allows you to feel the heat within minutes, hanging at ceiling level can take a long time to feel anything if the concrete floor is cold.
A glycol mix will deal with any freezing issues. Or circulate continuously.
If you want to heat at lower water temps oversize the heater accordingly, the output drops gradually, 180 is not required.
 
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lotawood

Member
Dec 11, 2011
78
montana
A wood stove could heat that intermittently, other than probably not a good combination with a woodshop.
Maybe panel radiators would be quicker response than slab radiant. Slower than water to air heat.
If I was building a new shop I would put radiant tubes in the concrete. Insulated well underneath. Keep floor at minimal constant temperature. Count on panel radiators to bring it up a little when working in there. Or a water to air exchanger.
My shop slab takes a long time to move a few degrees. But I have a woodstove to raise air temperatures quick. Then propane Modine as backup.
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
E. Yoder, thanks for your input. That's a good idea to keep heat outputs near the floor. I think I might go with Gencops idea to not have to deal with any freezing issues. I'll have to give it more thought, but that plan seems pretty appealing on first review.

Lotawood, my first thought was a wood stove, but I don't want to smoke out the neighbors. A lesser equivalent to a Kuuma gasifier that produces forced hot air might be workable if the cost isn't too high. I'd going to have to find what models like that, meeting EPA standards, are out there and their cost before making a decision.

I really don't want to keep the space continuously heated as I won't be using it anywhere near continuously. Being retired and not having to work continuously, or at all if need be, is a nice place to be. So. I'll heat the space only when I want to be out there doing some project or other during the heating season. Getting older is a PITA in many ways, but does have some perks.

Mike
 
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andym

Feeling the Heat
Feb 6, 2020
424
Hicksville, Ohio
A lesser equivalent to a Kuuma gasifier that produces forced hot air might be workable if the cost isn't too high. I'd going to have to find what models like that, meeting EPA standards, are out there and their cost before making a decision.
Check out the new Drolet Heat Commander at MFP.com. Keep in mind too the 26% tax credit on new qualified wood burning appliances.
 
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dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
I will look into the Drolet you mentioned tonight. Is the price on that model typical for that type of gasifier. The Drolet Heat Commander I looked at briefly was just under $3000.

Mike
 

hedge wood

Burning Hunk
Mar 1, 2009
199
Eastern NE
Glad to hear this setup works for you hedge wood. No reason it shouldn't here. Now I've got to remember how I went about getting the custom water to air hx coil, sitting over my Goodman furnace, sized, plus the airflow needed to size the air handler. Searching out some old posts here might jog my memory.

Which Garn do you have? They had just come out with that smaller size Garn Jr. when I was last involved with this kind of thing. The Garns were a bit out of reach to purchase at the time, but I would have loved to have one.

Mike
Mike I have the Garn 2000 not been happy with it. Put in 2009. I have another leak currently. Spent three grand on it two years ago to fix a leak and have another one in a different location. I have four water to air heat exchanger's Two 22X25 in Goodman LP furnaces. One 16X16 in a Goodman Lp furnace and one 18X18 in a Goodman air handler MBUC series with a back up electric heat strip. All work just fine. All were mounted in the supply plenum. I just pop riveted aluminum angle on the side of the plenum and slide them in and built a cap to seal it off were the plumbing pipes come out. Two the LP furnaces are in my house with the air handler with the electric strip and one of the LP furnaces is in my shop. I also have floor heat in my shop that is hooked up to the Garn.
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
Mike I have the Garn 2000 not been happy with it. Put in 2009. I have another leak currently. Spent three grand on it two years ago to fix a leak and have another one in a different location.
Hedge wood, sorry to hear you've had so much trouble with your Garn. if you don't mind my asking, what made it so costly to get a weld done,? Did you have to completely disassemble the Garn to get it done. There used to be a Garn expert on site, who posted frequently, and went by the name "Heaterman", He may be able to offer you some advice as on why this keeps happening and what to do about it. Maybe you've already consulted him. I've only been on this site rarely the past three years so haven't kept up with your travails in this regard. What does Garn have to say about this recurring issue?

Mike
 

JohnDolz

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2015
551
Burlington, CT
Are there Modines available large enough to heat an open 916 square foot space with 8' ceilings. I'm building a 28' x 32' woodworking shop connected to my garage, and one end of my Tarm Solo Innova's 1000 gallon storage tank is adjacent to one wall of the shop. I'm thinking maybe I could hook a modine up to the tank to heat the shop, whenever it may be in use. If so, I've got to figure a way to keep the modine from freezing too, whenever the shop is not in use during the winter. Any thoughts on either matter will be appreciated. Thanks,

Mike
Mike for what its worth I have a Modine in my 1700 sqft unfinished basement in CT that runs off of hot water. As E Yoder mentioned you can certainly run off of water at temps much lower than 180 (I've run it as low as 110). I also have 1,000 gallon storage which is in the basement in an insulated "room". I have been spending most of the winter in Vermont, coming home every 4 or 5 days. I set the thermostats in the house at 50 and 45 in the basement. The basement never drops to 45, not sure if that is because much of it is below grade or due to heat loss from storage or a combination of both. The point being that when I to my home in CT storage is at 100 or less, I startup a fire, the computer controller on the boiler calls for max water temp, all the circs and the Modine start running. The boiler can keep up with the demand total 5,000 sqft). At 1st I would not use the Modine, my thinking was that I would maximize the water going to the living area of the house and I didn't care if the basement heated up. Since then I have learned that if I leverage the Modine and leave the basement door open I can get my entire house up to temp much faster (the Modine pumps out a huge amount of heat compared to my baseboard). Not sure how cold your shop would get, if heat loss off of the shared storage wall would help keep it above freezing, etc. but based on my experience, what you are thinking will work just fine.
 

dogwood

Minister of Fire
Mar 22, 2009
825
Western VA
John, thank you for your reply. It sounds like we have some similarities in our systems and the spaces we are heating. How large is the modine you are using in your basement? I'm not familiar with how many btu's they can put out, or if a single unit could heat the entire shop space readily. If you're heating 1700 square feet though, that's a lot more space than my 916 square foot shop will have. Is the blower on your modine capable of blowing hot air to the far reaches of your basement?

It's only the very end of my 1000 gallon insulated, enclosed storage tank that abuts the shop space, so I'll probably not get much incidental heat off it to keep the shop above freezing. I'd thought about putting an aquastat on the supply line to the modine that would circulate enough water through it to keep the modine from freezing, without necessarily kicking it's fan on to heat the shop. It really doesn't matter if the shop gets below freezing. when not being utilized. The modines proximity to the storage tank would likely keep the modine itself above freezing as the black iron pipe I'm using transmits heat fairly readily, and the modine would be located right near the end of the heated 16' long pressurized storage tank which rarely gets below 130 degrees.

If there's any chance you could post a picture of your modine, that would help me visualize what the unit would look like size wise. Thanks a lot John. I do remember reading your posts when I frequented the Boiler Room on a daily basis during my hydronic design and installation days. They were always thoughtful and interesting, so I appreciate your chiming in.

Mike
 
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JohnDolz

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2015
551
Burlington, CT
John, thank you for your reply. It sounds like we have some similarities in our systems and the spaces we are heating. How large is the modine you are using in your basement? I'm not familiar with how many btu's they can put out, or if a single unit could heat the entire shop space readily. If you're heating 1700 square feet though, that's a lot more space than my 916 square foot shop will have. Is the blower on your modine capable of blowing hot air to the far reaches of your basement?

It's only the very end of my 1000 gallon insulated, enclosed storage tank that abuts the shop space, so I'll probably not get much incidental heat off it to keep the shop above freezing. I'd thought about putting an aquastat on the supply line to the modine that would circulate enough water through it to keep the modine from freezing, without necessarily kicking it's fan on to heat the shop. It really doesn't matter if the shop gets below freezing. when not being utilized. The modines proximity to the storage tank would likely keep the modine itself above freezing as the black iron pipe I'm using transmits heat fairly readily, and the modine would be located right near the end of the heated 16' long pressurized storage tank which rarely gets below 130 degrees.

If there's any chance you could post a picture of your modine, that would help me visualize what the unit would look like size wise. Thanks a lot John. I do remember reading your posts when I frequented the Boiler Room on a daily basis during my hydronic design and installation days. They were always thoughtful and interesting, so I appreciate your chiming in.

Mike
Hey Mike - I am back up in VT, I'll take a picture when I get back to CT in a few days.
 

JohnDolz

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2015
551
Burlington, CT

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