Renewable energy passed another milestone in the US

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
Status
Not open for further replies.
Also, did you actually lump sum 25k$ into your retirement accounts when you decided not to take solar panels?
If not, isn't that argument moot?
Good point. I think we’ve been together on this forum long enough for you to know I’m putting substantially more than $25k per year into my retirement, but it does remove that part of my earlier argument for one who is not. Still, it doesn’t remove the issue for ROI, at least based on my local circumstances.

Woodgeek makes a good point, in that my numbers and conclusions are strongly biased toward our local situation here in PA, as all numbers I have run have been for various friends and family all living in PA. As usual, he’s a step ahead of me. 😀
 
  • Like
Reactions: stoveliker
I'm just mad I don't get to be part of the solar club. :(

Stupid cheap electricity.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Ashful
I'm just mad I don't get to be part of the solar club. :(

Stupid cheap electricity.
I'm kinda in the same boat. With cheap hydro power, it wouldn't make fiscal sense for me to put in a solar system. But i'd love to have an off grid system. If anybody wants to send me a bunch of panels, controllers, batteries, inverter etcs, i promise to hook them up and i'll even wire in a transfer switch to my house or shop.
 
Back in TN it wasn't financially worthwhile either. Here it is, even without investing my power bill into my retirement accounts.
 
WA State made is more worthwhile a decade ago, but with some big strings. The system needed to be made in WA. If it was, then early adopters got paid 54¢/kWh on top of net metering at about 10¢/kWh. That program ended a few years ago but paid for our system. I added another array around 2016 when the new program started. It's not as good, but has been paying back every year at 21¢ /kWh. The second array investment cost was less because we already had a 2-channel inverter with only one channel used, the infrastructure was mostly in, and the panels cost less.
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek
I'm just mad I don't get to be part of the solar club. :(

Stupid cheap electricity.
What haven’t done the math here in a while but Duke just proposed a 17% residential rate increase. 9% for commercial customers. Doubt they get all 17. I’m guess they get 10% so my delivered with tax will be $0.157/kWh for 1200 kWh.

I should run some numbers.

Any fixed assets will depreciate and inflation doesn’t do anyone favors. Figuring in inflation means playing the markets. How does one figure in the cost of the risk? Just assume you are well enough diversified to make 7% over the next 30 years? Banks are now going to “insured” at any deposit amount. But that comes at a cost. I would want to see what value Solar panels add to houses when the install is 15-20 years old.
 
Any fixed assets will depreciate and inflation doesn’t do anyone favors. Figuring in inflation means playing the markets. How does one figure in the cost of the risk? Just assume you are well enough diversified to make 7% over the next 30 years? Banks are now going to “insured” at any deposit amount. But that comes at a cost. I would want to see what value Solar panels add to houses when the install is 15-20 years old.

I know its a rhetorical question, but one way to think about it:

100% equity allocation index investing will probably beat any solar investment (unless heavily subsidized, rare), with the investment being liquid (more or less) rather than depreciating AND having an expected real earnings of 5-6% over long periods.

That said, a lot of folks like to run less that 100% equities, and put the rest in bonds, with much lower expected returns (and really crappy the last few years too). So investment in a solar system may outperform a bond investment, with comparable risk.
 
Last edited:
At the end you can sell investment again. At the end of solar panels, if we're lucky we don't have to pay because recycling pays for their disassembly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek and EbS-P
Thanks. Good numbers.

I've been toying with the idea of doing some solar for years. But the problem I keep finding with home solar, is that the ROI is never, once you account for inflation. That $26k spent today is paid back at lower future-dollar value, it'll be worth only $14k in 20 years at a very modest 3%. Your actual payback value will hover somewhere in the middle, being spread over time. But I think you know that inflation during our current administration has spiked from ~1.5% up to somewhere close to 7%, depending on how you measure it. If they don't get that under control, your ROI goes strongly negative.

If you ignore inflation, which is a real nasty trick most solar companies employ to calculate ROI, I've seen ROI's of 13 - 25 years. That depends on system size and usage, usually favoring "smaller costs less".

Meanwhile, the same $26k invested in any tax-deferred account (IRA, your 401k, etc.) will grow to roughly $100k at a relatively safe 7% annual, over a similar 20 year period. So, rather than hoping to break even, which will usually never happen, we're actually losing $74k through this investment.

Not criticizing, you must have some non-financial reason for wanting to do it, and that's all good. But I'd be doing it mostly for less noble financial reasons, and would rather have the extra $74k in my retirement account. Each year I get older and closer to downsizing, the opportunity for any ROI diminishes, so we're probably reaching a "no return" point already.
If the numbers don't work for you, that is fine. I don't care what you do and am not on a crusade of any type so use gas, propane, oil or whatever. I don't care.

My state has the 2nd highest electricity rates in the country, and last year went up 100%. So, that beats the 7% all to hell.

I have a fully funded 401k, so that is not a consideration.

At this point, I am unsure why you wanted my numbers except to try for the argument that I am bad at math (or am "wrong" in some other way). My reasons are my own and a confluence of many factors. With my situation being different than yours, I don't appreciate that game playing.
 
If the numbers don't work for you, that is fine. I don't care what you do and am not on a crusade of any type so use gas, propane, oil or whatever. I don't care.

My state has the 2nd highest electricity rates in the country, and last year went up 100%. So, that beats the 7% all to hell.

I have a fully funded 401k, so that is not a consideration.

At this point, I am unsure why you wanted my numbers except to try for the argument that I am bad at math (or am "wrong" in some other way). My reasons are my own and a confluence of many factors. With my situation being different than yours, I don't appreciate that game playing.
Geez, calm down. Not on any crusade, just seeing if the numbers have changed much recently, as it has been more than a year since I last looked. As woodgeek already noted, our situation is different here in PA, as our rates are much lower. So it’s very possible, even likely, your numbers shake out differently than here.

Sorry if you thought it was some kind of game or personal attack, that certainly wasn't my goal. I don’t know you from Adam, and I certainly don’t care what you choose to do with your money.
 
Last edited:
You say I am not accurate, however, you believe people that do have an agenda and it is a utopian government that they rule over people .
I don't listen to anyone in government. That's not where I get my facts. I am a researcher for an oil & gas company. The company I work for pays me to do research on slowing down climate change and they are very much aware that it's a real problem. I'm not going to try to prove it to you because you obviously won't listen or understand, but the proof is all around you if you choose to think independently and look for it.
 
Geez, calm down. Not on any crusade, just seeing if the numbers have changed much recently, as it has been more than a year since I last looked. As woodgeek already noted, our situation is different here in PA, as our rates are much lower. So it’s very possible, even likely, your numbers shake out differently than here.

Sorry if you thought it was some kind of game or personal attack, that certainly wasn't my goal. I don’t know you from Adam, and I certainly don’t care what you choose to do with your money.

The install didn't happen until November, but the price was set in May 2022. The installers have been very busy around here and I was given a 5-month turn around time (which they missed by a couple of weeks).

Sorry if I misinterpreted. I've got someone else trying to convince me I should have gotten a battery for my system because it would pay me back by fulfilling the 2-3 kwh I use at night. Sure, why not, that would only have a 90 year ROI (and that is assuming the battery would last that long) ;lol
 
Last edited:
The install didn't happen until November, but the price was set in May 2022. The installers have been very busy around here and I was given a 5-month turn around time (which they missed by a couple of weeks).

Sorry if I misinterpreted. I've got someone else trying to convince me I should have gotten a battery for my system because it would pay me back by fulfilling the 2-3 kwh I use at night. Sure, why not, that would only have a 90 year ROI (and that is assuming the battery would last that long) ;lol
No worries. In re-reading my post, I can see how it may have sounded worse than I intended it. In any case, with the rates climbing the way they have been over the last few years in many states, this is going to become a more attractive option for more and more people. Of course, I hope our rates stay where they are here in PA, but anomalies rarely last very long.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bogieb
I don't listen to anyone in government. That's not where I get my facts. I am a researcher for an oil & gas company. The company I work for pays me to do research on slowing down climate change and they are very much aware that it's a real problem. I'm not going to try to prove it to you because you obviously won't listen or understand, but the proof is all around you if you choose to think independently and look for it.
Where is it? By the way , my post was deleted . I was accused of posting a political rant , but reality is people cant except that their religious climate change is foolish. If you do research, then tell me where there is man made climate change. In Wisconsin about 10,000 yrs ago there was a sheet of ice 1 mile thick. It was long gone before man could every have melted it. The climate change since the glaciers covered Wisconsin did not melt cause of man. About 50 yrs ago , the weatherman said we were going back to the ice age. By mid 1980's there was global warming, now it's climate change every time there is a cold , warm, wet , dry , sunny, or cloudy season. I can go back 114 yrs on my families property. This was when my grandpa used his mules to farm... Yep, Bitzy and Betzy. March 5 was his birthday and he said snow is always gone or almost by March 5 and snow is back by Thanksgiving. It is a little different now, the seasons seem 2 weeks later. However, the summers and winters are the same temp. There is no difference . Again , show me where there is man made climate change. You said you would not show me and I should look myself. There is none and you are getting payed to " find it" . You said it yourself, you get payed to do research on slowing down climate change. Therefore if there is none, you are out of a good paying job..
 
Where is it? By the way , my post was deleted . I was accused of posting a political rant , but reality is people cant except that their religious climate change is foolish. If you do research, then tell me where there is man made climate change. In Wisconsin about 10,000 yrs ago there was a sheet of ice 1 mile thick. It was long gone before man could every have melted it. The climate change since the glaciers covered Wisconsin did not melt cause of man. About 50 yrs ago , the weatherman said we were going back to the ice age. By mid 1980's there was global warming, now it's climate change every time there is a cold , warm, wet , dry , sunny, or cloudy season. I can go back 114 yrs on my families property. This was when my grandpa used his mules to farm... Yep, Bitzy and Betzy. March 5 was his birthday and he said snow is always gone or almost by March 5 and snow is back by Thanksgiving. It is a little different now, the seasons seem 2 weeks later. However, the summers and winters are the same temp. There is no difference . Again , show me where there is man made climate change. You said you would not show me and I should look myself. There is none and you are getting payed to " find it"
If you actually want to learn, start here:






but I'm sure you'll figure out some way that this was all made up by libs to promote their agenda of (wasting colossal amounts of money???)

You said it yourself, you get payed to do research on slowing down climate change. Therefore if there is none, you are out of a good paying job..
I'm not worried, we are well beyond the point of "finding out" if climate change is real. I've got plenty of job security.
 
Where is it? By the way , my post was deleted . I was accused of posting a political rant , but reality is people cant except that their religious climate change is foolish. If you do research, then tell me where there is man made climate change. In Wisconsin about 10,000 yrs ago there was a sheet of ice 1 mile thick. It was long gone before man could every have melted it. The climate change since the glaciers covered Wisconsin did not melt cause of man. About 50 yrs ago , the weatherman said we were going back to the ice age. By mid 1980's there was global warming, now it's climate change every time there is a cold , warm, wet , dry , sunny, or cloudy season. I can go back 114 yrs on my families property. This was when my grandpa used his mules to farm... Yep, Bitzy and Betzy. March 5 was his birthday and he said snow is always gone or almost by March 5 and snow is back by Thanksgiving. It is a little different now, the seasons seem 2 weeks later. However, the summers and winters are the same temp. There is no difference . Again , show me where there is man made climate change. You said you would not show me and I should look myself. There is none and you are getting payed to " find it" . You said it yourself, you get payed to do research on slowing down climate change. Therefore if there is none, you are out of a good paying job..
Look at the rate of change. Look at the atmospheric conditions and rate of change. It you actually look at the data objectively there is no way you can deny that man has caused a rapid change in climate.
 
Where is it? By the way , my post was deleted . I was accused of posting a political rant , but reality is people cant except that their religious climate change is foolish. If you do research, then tell me where there is man made climate change. In Wisconsin about 10,000 yrs ago there was a sheet of ice 1 mile thick. It was long gone before man could every have melted it. The climate change since the glaciers covered Wisconsin did not melt cause of man. About 50 yrs ago , the weatherman said we were going back to the ice age. By mid 1980's there was global warming, now it's climate change every time there is a cold , warm, wet , dry , sunny, or cloudy season. I can go back 114 yrs on my families property. This was when my grandpa used his mules to farm... Yep, Bitzy and Betzy. March 5 was his birthday and he said snow is always gone or almost by March 5 and snow is back by Thanksgiving. It is a little different now, the seasons seem 2 weeks later. However, the summers and winters are the same temp. There is no difference . Again , show me where there is man made climate change. You said you would not show me and I should look myself. There is none and you are getting payed to " find it" . You said it yourself, you get payed to do research on slowing down climate change. Therefore if there is none, you are out of a good paying job..
I gather that your noted location is the general area you are describing. I’m about the same distance from Lake Michigan but on the other side. The Great Lakes are a great moderator when other places are getting hit with more extreme weather. It works both ways. They’re like a big bully when other places are enjoying nice weather and we get constant clouds, rain, and winters that drag on forever. But they’re like a best friend when other places are baking at over 100f, and get frequent and large tornadoes. I don’t even have or need AC. But for the same reason it would be pointless to do solar. It’s easier for me to use less energy and not be wasteful because it saves me money.

I’ve been here my whole life and for a long time had the same outlook too. But with all the information sources available these days, it’s pretty clear that a LOT of places are getting more extreme weather and heat as time goes on. And at some point even the Great Lakes will warm up too.

As for why it’s happening, I’ll leave that to the folks who are more knowledgeable on the subject.
 
Look at the rate of change. Look at the atmospheric conditions and rate of change. It you actually look at the data objectively there is no way you can deny that man has caused a rapid change in climate.
In other words , If I would only open my stupid eyes and be so aware as you , then I would see the obvious, right. I still cant get anyone to show me the proof. Where is it? Again, there were ice shields over Wisconsin and some say they were 1 mile thick. They ahve been long gone for thousands of years . Where did they go?? Did the cave men decide to start the ice on fire??? Yes, I'm being sarcastic, and before you remove my post again , you need to show me . TLC above my post says Lake Michigan will eventually warm up too. When ? Just 5 yrs ago it was more froze over than ever. In 2014 the pictures from space showed ice burgs floating on the south end of Lake Superior in June. Some said it cant be.. A warden runs out there 15 miles and sure enough, It was not just a piece of ice, it was at least an acre. And of course people went out there to party and drink beer and cook out. Look it up yourself It was around June 9, 2014. Pics and all . Sure dont look like the lake is warming up to me. Lake Michigan will be cold this summer cause there is 2' snow in much of Upper Michigan. No? Oh yes . Ask Yooper that posts here. You have to show me the evidence , not just say it's there and insult me by saying I cant see it.
 
In other words , If I would only open my stupid eyes and be so aware as you , then I would see the obvious, right. I still cant get anyone to show me the proof.
Yes exactly. Remember when I said climate deniers are a burden on everyone else? this is what I'm talking about. I already took time out of my day to give you resources that you can go and explore where you will see the evidence of climate change and there's plenty more out there if you just google it.

With all of your examples so far you are confusing weather and climate. Weather still has much larger variations in temperature than the overall climate so it's hard to see the incremental changes in climate. This is a very common mistake and it's understandable. But please make some effort to educate yourself rather than blaming others for not spoon feeding all the explanations to you.

And yes we know that there were ice ages and glaciers in the past. They melted because the planet warmed up. Now we are seeing the planet warming again due to CO2 released from fossil fuel combustion. No mysteries, it's all well established science.
The lakes are warming up. Regardless of what you see on a particular day or a particular year, the overall multi-year trend is undeniable. And it's very fast compared to any prehistoric events that we've been able to study.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ashful and semipro
You didnt give me any examples cause there are none, except a few links created by people that will write anything to convince the foolish. Yes, I'm calling you foolish cause you are snide calling me climate denier. That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. What is denying climate?? That is the dumbest term in the world. Oh, and now I am supposed to google it. Google what ? What someone else wants me to believe , of course. Again, I cant be called a climate denier cause I'm the one who said there were 1 mile high glaciers 10,000 yrs ago right where I live. How can you say I'm denying climate?? Let me guess , you will send me a link of some college fool that did a study , right. And just what is the difference between climate and weather??? What exactly is the difference??? Wouldn't climate change change the weather???? So back at you , it's a very common mistake and it's understandable that you believe something like man made climate change , so please make some effort to educate yourself rather than acting like you are so enlightened and I am just too shallow to comprehend the depth of your understanding . Problem is, if you really believe there is climate change , it has been happening for 10,000 yrs. and no one has an answer for the glaciers.
 
You didnt give me any examples cause there are none, except a few links created by people that will write anything to convince the foolish. Yes, I'm calling you foolish cause you are snide calling me climate denier. That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. What is denying climate?? That is the dumbest term in the world. Oh, and now I am supposed to google it. Google what ? What someone else wants me to believe , of course. Again, I cant be called a climate denier cause I'm the one who said there were 1 mile high glaciers 10,000 yrs ago right where I live. How can you say I'm denying climate?? Let me guess , you will send me a link of some college fool that did a study , right. And just what is the difference between climate and weather??? What exactly is the difference??? Wouldn't climate change change the weather???? So back at you , it's a very common mistake and it's understandable that you believe something like man made climate change , so please make some effort to educate yourself rather than acting like you are so enlightened and I am just too shallow to comprehend the depth of your understanding . Problem is, if you really believe there is climate change , it has been happening for 10,000 yrs. and no one has an answer for the glaciers.
What answers do you want for the glaciers?

If you don't trust the people who study climate who do you trust??

What are you basing your opinions on? It sounds like only your local weather
 
And just what is the difference between climate and weather??? What exactly is the difference??? Wouldn't climate change change the weather????
Climate is the average conditions, on a long time scale. Weather is what happens on a day to day basis. So yes of course the climate will affect the weather, just not necessarily in a clean and uniform way everywhere. Just like how California has been having more droughts and around here we've been breaking temperature records more months than not. Climate change is also shifting the jet stream which actually makes the upper Midwest colder than it used to be. Does that disprove that the earth is warming up? No. Weather is related to climate but they're not the same thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: semipro
Status
Not open for further replies.