Replacing Franklin Stove?

[mmichaud]

Hello, I am new to this forum and I have some questions about replacing a Franklin Stove that I have in my basement. The Franklin Stove is located in the finished area of my basement. Half of the basement is finished the other half is not. The entire space is approximately 1100 square feet. I rely on the stove for heating the entire space since the unfinished half is my workshop. The finished area is my family room. When I am using the stove I can heat the entire space but I am throwing a lot of wood into it to do so, probably every half an hour. I am burning mixed hardwood. I have been currently visiting stove dealers around the area and have come across the Jotul stoves. I like the F3 CB and the Castine. They seem to be in the heating range that I would need. I have already gotten some feedback from the dealers but I would like some additional. Here come the questions.

1. What would be the best size to get? Is it better to go a little bigger? Should I consider the Jotul Olso? I live in Wisconsin so our winters can get rather cold at times. I am not concerned about overnight burns. I would like a stove that I do not have to stoke every 30 minutes.

2. Are the Jotul Stoves good performers? I feel rather confident that I have a good draft. The current Franklin Stove never smokes. The fire roars when you close the doors and I have to damper it down otherwise it seems as if all the heat goes up the chimney. My chimney is masonry, relined with a stainless liner and has thermix as insulation. It is located in the middle of the house. The flue size is 8 inch. The height of the chimney is about 23 feet from where the stove enters the chimney to the top.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Mike

 

[begreen]

Jotuls are reliable, efficient performers and some of the best looking stoves out there imwo. The 3CB will go about 3-4 hrs max between refills if you are doing serious heating. The Castine is reported to go 4-6 hrs. The Oslo is a serious overnight stove. If you've got the clearances and the wood, maybe the Oslo would work well for you, though you may need to throttle it down quite a bit. Can you open up a stairway door to let the heat go upstairs? Whatever your choice you'll be pleased with more heat for less wood consumed. .

 

[mmichaud]

Yes, the stairwell is open to the upstairs. Heat does naturally travel up there when I am using the stove.

 

[elkimmeg]

If you have an 8" flue than why not VC encore or defiant?

 

[ChrisN]

Mike, I have an Oslo and am very happy with it, but I use it as my main heat source for my whole house. I think the Oslo might be a bit of an overkill for the space you descibed.

Chris

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Hello, I am new to this forum and I have some questions about replacing a Franklin Stove that I have in my basement. The Franklin Stove is located in the finished area of my basement. Half of the basement is finished the other half is not. The entire space is approximately 1100 square feet. I rely on the stove for heating the entire space since the unfinished half is my workshop. The finished area is my family room. When I am using the stove I can heat the entire space but I am throwing a lot of wood into it to do so, probably every half an hour. I am burning mixed hardwood. I have been currently visiting stove dealers around the area and have come across the Jotul stoves. I like the F3 CB and the Castine. They seem to be in the heating range that I would need. I have already gotten some feedback from the dealers but I would like some additional. Here come the questions.

1. What would be the best size to get? Is it better to go a little bigger? Should I consider the Jotul Olso? I live in Wisconsin so our winters can get rather cold at times. I am not concerned about overnight burns. I would like a stove that I do not have to stoke every 30 minutes.

2. Are the Jotul Stoves good performers? I feel rather confident that I have a good draft. The current Franklin Stove never smokes. The fire roars when you close the doors and I have to damper it down otherwise it seems as if all the heat goes up the chimney. My chimney is masonry, relined with a stainless liner and has thermix as insulation. It is located in the middle of the house. The flue size is 8 inch. The height of the chimney is about 23 feet from where the stove enters the chimney to the top.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Mike

One of the reasons your current setup never smokes and has great draft is because most of the heat is going up the chimney, and heat is what makes good draft. Newer stoves dont loose nearly as much heat up the chimney, therfor they dont draft that well relative to you old franklin. Most new stoves use a 6 inch flue, if you put a new stove in the basement on that 8 inch flue it probably will not draft as well as your current setup. It will hard to get that big chimney warm, but once its warm that big 8" collum of hot air will overdraft the stove. So i think elks recomendation is best. Buy a VC with a 8" chimney, that has a cat, so when you get that chimney roaring you can cut the draft down. Catalytic 8 inch stoves are more controlable then 6" non cats.....

 

[mmichaud]

I had thought about a VC stove but I am having a hard time locating a dealer around here. I do like the cast iron look. Also, I was concerned about their past reputation. Have they fixed some of the problems with the stoves from the early 90's? I have read past forums of early burnout, needing to rebuild after a couple of years.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im shure elk will tell you all about it, i have no idea about the quality. People here like them, i know i sold them severl years ago and they did not look like good quality back then, apperntly they have improved. Reguradless of the make, whith a VC cat stove, you will be able to bypass the cat chamber and directly heat that big chimney, then shut the damper and close off the air to stop that big cimmey from sucking your stove dry. A inline pipe damper would be a MUST have for a 6 inch non cat. Was i clear on the problem with the 8 inch flue? its early yet. im a little foggy.

 

[mmichaud]

Yes, that made perfect sense. I never though about the overdraft possibilty.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

the overdraft will only happen once you get the flue up to temp, getting it up to temp with a 6 " non cat will be a challenge, but once its there, it will pull hard. The problem with a non cat in this installation is that the secondary burn chamber can not be cut off. so you can cut the air off to the stove, but NOT the secondary burn chamber, and it will still pull hard enough through the secondary air system to eat up all your wood. In a normal draft with a six inch chimmey, the chimney will not pull the air very hard through the secondary burn chamber with the air shut off to the stove.

 

[Todd]

That's the first time I heard an oversized flue will overdraft? I thought it would do the oposite? Most people reline with the same sized chimney as stove flue collar because of sluggish poor draft of an oversized chimney flue. What does Jutol's manual state for flue size? I bet 8" would work just fine since it's an inside chimney.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

That's the first time I heard an oversized flue will overdraft? I thought it would do the oposite? Most people reline with the same sized chimney as stove flue collar because of sluggish poor draft of an oversized chimney flue. What does Jutol's manual state for flue size? I bet 8" would work just fine since it's an inside chimney.

Does a 8" collum of hot air pull harder then a 6"? is a 8" collum of air harder to warm up then a 6" ? simple physics. Yes a 8 inch is approved for a jotul, or most any stove. But is it the BEST choice? no, its just approved for it.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah. Jotul's manual says it is fine to vent into up to a 8" X 11" tile flue. I am here to tell ya that venting that F100 into an 8 X 11 exterior flue had crap for draft.

 

[Todd]

Don't want to start a war with an expert like MSG. This just kind of confuses me. I'll agree that the same flue and collar size is the way to go and an 8" will take longer to heat up than 6", but as far as an 8" pulling harder, won't the gases expand and cool then create less draft since an 8" flue is a 78% increase in the volume?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Don't want to start a war with an expert like MSG. This just kind of confuses me. I'll agree that the same flue and collar size is the way to go and an 8" will take longer to heat up than 6", but as far as an 8" pulling harder, won't the gases expand and cool then create less draft since an 8" flue is a 78% increase in the volume?

Todd, i didnt mean to come off like wanted to start a war.
Yes, at first the flue gasses would expand, slowing draft, untill the entire chimney got hot, then once the entire chimney is up to temp, then it has more "engine" then a 6 inch pipe. The problem is the start up and the lack of draft associated with start up. Now he has a 23 foot chimney, which is also tall, this plays an important part in this. If this was a 10' chimney it wouldnt draft well to begin with no matter what. This is not theroy, at the store i have a heratige hooked up to a tall 8" flue, the stove is uncontrollable without a inline damper. I have a comprable chimney in my home, that is 6 inch, and the fire burns much longer, twice as long actually, then the stove in the shop. there both on 24' flues, the one at the shop might be a litte taller. The only difference is mine is 6 inch. Also the stove at the shop takes for ever to get going. This is with dried pine that you buy in bundles here. It makes sense to me, that a 400* collum of hot air in a 8" x23 foot tube will pull harder, and have more lift then a 400* collum of hot air in the same tube that is 6" in diameter. Now the reason that BB never got his going is becaue that stove was never capable of getting the 8x11 flue to that temp, but a 6 inch stove can and will get a 6 inch flue and a 8 inch flue to the same temp eventually.

 

[Todd]

Ok, I get it now, thanks

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah there is no question that the little stove just wasn't getting the flue warm enough. My point, and I should have said so, is that just because the manual says you can do something does not mean it is the best way to do it.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Agreed, manuals are concerned with whats tested and approved, not what works in a lot of cases.

 

[seaken]

I'd be willing to bet that if you lit a match and blew it out near the flue outlet of your Franklin that you would see the smoke going up into the chimney. It is true that heat is a major factor in draft. However, draft is realy an affect due to the difference in temperature between the inside of the flue and the outside of the flue. In your case, the house itself is acting as a stack with a central flue. The differential between the outside (outside the house - in the yard) and the interior of the pipe is high. House presurization will naturally support good draft. Most folks who are experiencing poor draft have some or all of the chimney outside the house. In that case, the differential must be created and maintained entirely with the fire in your appliance. The reason a re-line works better is because it heats up faster and draft improves. To a point. If too big the gasses cool and the differential decreases, condensation occurs, and draft performance suffers.

I would say that it is not likely that you will ever experience too little draft in your case. I agree that overdrafting is more likely. A good damper system could be helpful in controlling the velocity of the draft. Some non-cat stoves do not restrict the air damper as much as others and many do not have flue dampers at all. In such cases, we have found the installation of a pipe damper (aka fly-damper) to be useful. I do not agree that you need to be concerned with the flue outlet size on the appliance. You should get similar results with anything from a 6" to an 8" collar. The 8" size is capable of more volume so it best when burning in open mode, like the Franklin. But all the controlled combustion stoves operate the same way when the doors are closed. The air inlet is restricted and split to supply the firebox with the right amount for combustion. If you have excessive draft you may hear a whistle or roar even when the air damper is fully restricted. If that happens it is time to put a restrictor plate damper in the flue itself.

Bear in mind that we're just shootin' from the hip here. We can't see the actual site and do any actual field testing. Your best bet is to find a local chimney professional who can help with the install. A good hearth dealer may be able to do a site visit and give you some advise that can confirm or clarify what we have added here. If all else fails you can start out with your best guess and then keep us posted. But I have a feeling there are some good professionals not too far away from you. What part of Wisconsin? My brother lives near Green Bay.

Good luck,
Sean

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I'd be willing to bet that if you lit a match and blew it out near the flue outlet of your Franklin that you would see the smoke going up into the chimney. It is true that heat is a major factor in draft. However, draft is realy an affect due to the difference in temperature between the inside of the flue and the outside of the flue. In your case, the house itself is acting as a stack with a central flue. The differential between the outside (outside the house - in the yard) and the interior of the pipe is high. House presurization will naturally support good draft. Most folks who are experiencing poor draft have some or all of the chimney outside the house. In that case, the differential must be created and maintained entirely with the fire in your appliance. The reason a re-line works better is because it heats up faster and draft improves. To a point. If too big the gasses cool and the differential decreases, condensation occurs, and draft performance suffers.

I would say that it is not likely that you will ever experience too little draft in your case. I agree that overdrafting is more likely. A good damper system could be helpful in controlling the velocity of the draft. Some non-cat stoves do not restrict the air damper as much as others and many do not have flue dampers at all. In such cases, we have found the installation of a pipe damper (aka fly-damper) to be useful. I do not agree that you need to be concerned with the flue outlet size on the appliance. You should get similar results with anything from a 6" to an 8" collar. The 8" size is capable of more volume so it best when burning in open mode, like the Franklin. But all the controlled combustion stoves operate the same way when the doors are closed. The air inlet is restricted and split to supply the firebox with the right amount for combustion. If you have excessive draft you may hear a whistle or roar even when the air damper is fully restricted. If that happens it is time to put a restrictor plate damper in the flue itself.

Bear in mind that we're just shootin' from the hip here. We can't see the actual site and do any actual field testing. Your best bet is to find a local chimney professional who can help with the install. A good hearth dealer may be able to do a site visit and give you some advise that can confirm or clarify what we have added here. If all else fails you can start out with your best guess and then keep us posted. But I have a feeling there are some good professionals not too far away from you. What part of Wisconsin? My brother lives near Green Bay.

Good luck,
Sean

Seaken, i have a question, the reason i agreed with ELK's post on the VC, was that the VC is a cat stove. Do you think a cat stove would be less suceptable to overdraft then a non cat? It just so happens that the vc line is catalytic and 8". I agree with you, if your comparing non cat vs non cat, 8 inch or not, it would not matter. But how bout 8" cat vs non cat 6" and cat 6" vs non cat 6". I think that the cat 8 or 6 would be more controlable on that chimney then any size non cat.

 

[seaken]

Seaken, i have a question, the reason i agreed with ELK's post on the VC, was that the VC is a cat stove. Do you think a cat stove would be less suceptable to overdraft then a non cat? It just so happens that the vc line is catalytic and 8". I agree with you, if your comparing non cat vs non cat, 8 inch or not, it would not matter. But how bout 8" cat vs non cat 6" and cat 6" vs non cat 6". I think that the cat 8 or 6 would be more controlable on that chimney then any size non cat.

Well, it is true that many non-cat designs are more open than a typical catalytic design. However, I have had many catalytic Encores suffer from over draft conditions. The Encore has one of the most circuitous smoke paths of all stoves. Also, it has a secondary air inlet that is not directly controlable by the operator. This has proven to be its achiles heel. The over drafting condition can be just as bad with catalytics as with non-cats. A fly damper in the pipe, and mixing in some green wood can be effective in controlling the draft. But this is all tricky stuff and has to be done mostly by trial and error. We have seen no difference in catalytic verses non-catalytic or 8" verses 6" when this problem surfaces. But each situation is different and an 8" unit may perform better for reasons not directly related to over drafting. In theory, I agree that the interior baffling, more common in catalytic stoves, should assist in slowing the draft. But we have had Encores on 6" flues that have excessive draft and require a pipe damper. So, they are not necessarily any better at slowing the draft than a more open 6" non-cat.

Sean

 

[mmichaud]

Thanks for the info so far. Yes, you are right I can lite a match in front of the stove door and the smoke is pulled up the flue. That is with a cold chimney. I can also use the stove when it is 60 degrees out and it drafts fine. No smoke in the house. When I had it relined, I had every intent to use the Franklin stove that is why it was relined with an 8 inch pipe. That was before I really understood exactly how much wood I would burn to keep the space warm. I also did not know a whole lot about new stoves, such as effiency, clean burn, and looks. This has been a learning experience.

 

[seaken]

Thanks for the info so far. Yes, you are right I can lite a match in front of the stove door and the smoke is pulled up the flue. That is with a cold chimney. I can also use the stove when it is 60 degrees out and it drafts fine. No smoke in the house. When I had it relined, I had every intent to use the Franklin stove that is why it was relined with an 8 inch pipe. That was before I really understood exactly how much wood I would burn to keep the space warm. I also did not know a whole lot about new stoves, such as effiency, clean burn, and looks. This has been a learning experience.

Well, you discovered that an open fireplace is not very good at heating a space efficiently. Sometimes that's desirable. There are times when a fire is wanted but not the heat. But since your intent was to heat the space you would have been better off installing a controlled combustion device. Even a propane heater would do a better job than the Franklin style fireplace. Probably no harm done. The 8" flue will work fine.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Seaken, i have a question, the reason i agreed with ELK's post on the VC, was that the VC is a cat stove. Do you think a cat stove would be less suceptable to overdraft then a non cat? It just so happens that the vc line is catalytic and 8". I agree with you, if your comparing non cat vs non cat, 8 inch or not, it would not matter. But how bout 8" cat vs non cat 6" and cat 6" vs non cat 6". I think that the cat 8 or 6 would be more controlable on that chimney then any size non cat.

Well, it is true that many non-cat designs are more open than a typical catalytic design. However, I have had many catalytic Encores suffer from over draft conditions. The Encore has one of the most circuitous smoke paths of all stoves. Also, it has a secondary air inlet that is not directly controlable by the operator. This has proven to be its achiles heel. The over drafting condition can be just as bad with catalytics as with non-cats. A fly damper in the pipe, and mixing in some green wood can be effective in controlling the draft. But this is all tricky stuff and has to be done mostly by trial and error. We have seen no difference in catalytic verses non-catalytic or 8" verses 6" when this problem surfaces. But each situation is different and an 8" unit may perform better for reasons not directly related to over drafting. In theory, I agree that the interior baffling, more common in catalytic stoves, should assist in slowing the draft. But we have had Encores on 6" flues that have excessive draft and require a pipe damper. So, they are not necessarily any better at slowing the draft than a more open 6" non-cat.

Sean

None of the stoves i sell have a controllable secondary burn system, they rely on resistance designed in the stove to keep the burn in check, which is also why the stoves i deal with give you a min max on the water colloum reading. So if i am reading your statement right, overdraft can pull strait through a catalyist as well as a secondary burn system, even though the cat has the ability to shut off the air completly to the unit... Good info seaken, thanks.

 

[seaken]

None of the stoves i sell have a controllable secondary burn system, they rely on resistance designed in the stove to keep the burn in check, which is also why the stoves i deal with give you a min max on the water colloum reading. So if i am reading your statement right, overdraft can pull strait through a catalyist as well as a secondary burn system, even though the cat has the ability to shut off the air completly to the unit... Good info seaken, thanks.

Yes, exactly. At least in the cases I deal with. My most common catalytic stoves have been the VC and Dutchwest brands. All the VC cats use a remote secondary air flap that is not controlable by the user. They also have a small amount of overdraft air inlet at the bottom of the firebox. The Dutchwest did use dial dampers and you could almost completely shut off the air supply. That design has since been done away with since it was too easy for the user to mess things up. All our Catalytic stoves now have some non-user controlled secondary air. Our non-cats like Lopi or Avalon use a single air control that splits the air supply, yet they also cannot be completely shut down. In most cases it is desirable to only allow a minimum turn down. But, in the case of an over draft condition this makes it trickier to find the balance for an effecient burn and a controlled rate. Thus the pipe damper, green wood mix, etc.