replacing main panel, should I add any AFCI breakers ?

[RustyShackleford]

I'm finally biting the bullet and replacing my main load center. The current one is chock-a--block full with space-saver breakers, and I still need to add a surge suppressor and heat strips for a new heat pump (bye-bye propane cartel). Also, the ground-neutral bars don't have enough room to give each neutral its own dedicated screw and many of the screws are torn up. And many of the breakers are as old as the house, 36 years, and should be replaced.

Oh, and I'm upgrading to 225 amps (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-PN...reaker-Plug-on-Neutral-Load-Center/5013492531). Yes, the 200-amp meter rating is continuous, so I'm good to go there. Will upgrade the conductors from meter to main breaker to 3/0. (Despite being a EE, I'm bewildered by the calculation for neutral conductor size, so I'll probably just recycle one of the old 2/0's, though the 1/0 would probably be fine). Being rural, I have my own transformer and POCO confirms it and the wiring to my house are fine for 225 amps.

AHJ doesn't require any AFCI breakers to be installed, because I'm not adding any circuits or adding more than 6ft to any circuit. But I'm wondering if I should a few anyhow. Thinking bedroom circuits; a fire there is more likely to be life-threatening - fires elsewhere, you're more likely to be awoken by a smoke alarm before in serious danger. Make sense ?

Also, as I understand it, there's two flavors of faults the AFCI detects: bad connections and shorts between hot and neutral/ground. The former can't cause a problem if the circuit is carrying no current (everything plugged into it is turned off, which is likely when you're sleeping. But the latter can occur anywhere anytime.

Thoughts ?

 

[ABMax24]

AFCI's are pretty expensive, last one I bought was $125 for a single 15 amp breaker. We now require them on all circuits with outlets.

I wouldn't put them on circuits if there was no plug ins, IMO the primary goal is to protect against a faulty appliance, cord or otherwise. One of mine did catch a ground wire I had touching a neutral screw on a plug, took me a while to figure that one out.

I wouldn't put them on circuits that serve fridges, freezers, furnaces, or sump pumps though. Apparently some motors can trip them when they start, wouldn't be great if any of those failed.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah I'm seeing 'em (Siemens) for $40 or so. Wouldn't do a lot of circuits. I'm thinking mainly bedroom(s) per my reasoning in OP.

 

[peakbagger]

IMHO, any room that someone may want to use an extension cord now or in the future. Outdoor receptacles.

 

[EbS-P]

My take. I had an afci trip due to a recalled dehumidifier. I bought a new replacement the week before but it failed to I plugged the recalled unit back in. I had been using it for years.

Not only does the AFCI breaker protect your outlets and what you plug in it protects all the wiring you can’t see and don’t have access too.

house fires are a real danger. I replace any breaker with an affix any time I work on the circuit. My fridges have been fine on AFCI. I have not had one nuisance trip. now I have had an AFC trip when power flickers due to incoming fluctuations from the line.

Bedrooms and living rooms for sure kitchens they have to be GFCI why not get a combination AFCi/GFCI. I don’t see any reason outside would need AFC but they have to be GFCI so why not combination again I’m a firm believer that the new updated electric codes will save lives. It could be yours.

 

[EbS-P]

And install a whole house surge protector in the panel

 

[Pinesmoke]

AFCI breakers can be cantankerous, they don't like some connections. I have a 20 Amp circuit for my microwave that will randomly trip. I checked the circuit with a megger and it was solid. Talking to the electrician that wired my place, AFCI are required by code, he said lots are replaced after inspection with normal breakers or GFCI depending on the need. He sees lots of issues with fridges and freezers having issues. If you go that direction you may need to spend time in your switch and receptacle boxes to settle things down. Simply having the neutral and ground wires too close can cause trips.

I have a mixture of breakers depending on circuit, my garage has standard breakers with a GFCI in each run so I don't get random trips from from power tools.

Last summer there was a lightning strike about 100 yards back in the woods. It changed the ground potential enough it tripped about 10 breakers in my single phase panel. I was glad I was home to reset them, 1 was the fridge.

I like the design concept of them but I have to say a house full of them is different. I moved from a place with Square D QD breakers that was rock solid. Here my panel door is open so I can reset breakers when they randomly go off because I plugged in a circular saw or something else they don't like.

The panels and breakers I have are Siemens, so I would imagine pretty close to what you linked.

I would consider them in bedrooms but if not required by code, personally I would go conventional breakers elsewhere.

As an industrial electrician I have to say my new place makes me crazy, where as my last place I never thought about it. If a breaker tripped there was a reason for it.

 

[Pinesmoke]

And install a whole house surge protector in the panel

Yes.

Look at SSI system. They are a little pricey compared to the off the shelf stuff but are the real deal. Since you will have the meter pulled when you up grade the panel consider layering them. One on the house side of the meter and one in the panel. The first one takes the heavy beating and the panel mount takes the rest. They specialize in commercial and military grade protection and will lock your place down. If you have a well they make an inline unit for the well head. My well is 500' deep and is a lot better ground the the one at my meter. The guy I've been deal with says they see a lot of pump failures, and frankly I don't want to pull mine from 480 feet deep.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I would consider them in bedrooms but if not required by code, personally I would go conventional breakers elsewhere.

That's what I'm thinking. That's the fire that could kill people.

There's pretty much nothing plugged into extension cords in our house (if you don't count TrippLite surge surpressor outlet strips for A/V system and computer room.

I guess the wiring is pretty sound. House is 36 years old and no issues. Even the well pump only replaced once, and that was due to an intense electrical storm.

I'm more concerned about the stepson and GF across the road, with a Federal Pacific panel. I'm gifting 'em my old Siemens panel and might install it for them if mine goes well. AHJ was cool with it, said just have him get the permit (homeowner can be their own contractor around here) and you're a friend helping him.

 

[Pinesmoke]

That's what I'm thinking. That's the fire that could kill people.

There's pretty much nothing plugged into extension cords in our house (if you don't count TrippLite surge surpressor outlet strips for A/V system and computer room.

I guess the wiring is pretty sound. House is 36 years old and no issues. Even the well pump only replaced once, and that was due to an intense electrical storm.

I'm more concerned about the stepson and GF across the road, with a Federal Pacific panel. I'm gifting 'em my old Siemens panel and might install it for them if mine goes well. AHJ was cool with it, said just have him get the permit (homeowner can be their own contractor around here) and you're a friend helping him.

Yes, you REALLY need to get rid of the FP box. Back home they are called fire starters. I had one when I bought up there and heard the unmistakable sound of an actively burning arc. Found a pinched romex burned in half, never tripped the breaker.

 

[bigealta]

Yeah i replaced the fed pacific in my rental in utah. That's a no brainer.

You can always do an afci or gfci outlet on the 1st outlet in each circuit you want to protect, to protect the whole circuit.

Like others have said electricians are replacing the afci breakers and outlets for nuisance tripping. Replacing an outlet should be easier less expensive than breakers. Not sure where current prices are on these though now.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah i replaced the fed pacific in my rental in utah. That's a no brainer.

Tell my wife (the neighbor's mom). She says the house is 30+ years old and nothing bad has happened. I would've been fine for the past 30 years if I never once buckled my seat belt. She's an intelligent woman. I mean, WTF ? OTOH, I mentioned it to the AHJ and he was ambivalent about whether it was urgent.

You can always do an afci or gfci outlet on the 1st outlet in each circuit you want to protect, to protect the whole circuit.

Replacing an outlet should be easier less expensive than breakers. Not sure where current prices are on these though now.

Great point. A lot cheaper.

 

[bigealta]

I put gfci outlets in the 1st outlet in all my basement circuits. It can get wet down there with spring thaws. Also i replaced the kitchen and bath outlets with gfci's outlets protecting all outlets in each room. All garage and outdoor outlets have the same gfci outlet protection from gfci outlets protecting each circuit.

Where i couldn't get a single gfci outlet to protect the entire run due to to many wires in the boxes i either replaced the boxes with larger ones, or used multiple gfci outlets on the same circuit where needed.

 

[zrock]

AFCI breakers can be cantankerous, they don't like some connections. I have a 20 Amp circuit for my microwave that will randomly trip. I checked the circuit with a megger and it was solid. Talking to the electrician that wired my place, AFCI are required by code, he said lots are replaced after inspection with normal breakers or GFCI depending on the need. He sees lots of issues with fridges and freezers having issues. If you go that direction you may need to spend time in your switch and receptacle boxes to settle things down. Simply having the neutral and ground wires too close can cause trips.

I have a mixture of breakers depending on circuit, my garage has standard breakers with a GFCI in each run so I don't get random trips from from power tools.

Last summer there was a lightning strike about 100 yards back in the woods. It changed the ground potential enough it tripped about 10 breakers in my single phase panel. I was glad I was home to reset them, 1 was the fridge.

I like the design concept of them but I have to say a house full of them is different. I moved from a place with Square D QD breakers that was rock solid. Here my panel door is open so I can reset breakers when they randomly go off because I plugged in a circular saw or something else they don't like.

The panels and breakers I have are Siemens, so I would imagine pretty close to what you linked.

I would consider them in bedrooms but if not required by code, personally I would go conventional breakers elsewhere.

As an industrial electrician I have to say my new place makes me crazy, where as my last place I never thought about it. If a breaker tripped there was a reason for it.

Do not install them on a run where you plan on running power tools.. They have been code on outside plugs for a few years and when i was doing setups i could not plug my saws into them or even run a weed eater without them tripping. I would pull them and replace them with a normal until the job was done and then put the original back in.. Then the customer would move in and have the same issues and remove it as well..

 

[Pinesmoke]

Do not install them on a run where you plan on running power tools.. They have been code on outside plugs for a few years and when i was doing setups i could not plug my saws into them or even run a weed eater without them tripping. I would pull them and replace them with a normal until the job was done and then put the original back in.. Then the customer would move in and have the same issues and remove it as well..

Isn't it funny how when the smartest guy in the room is in charge things work out so well?

It's almost an across the board PITA.

 

[peakbagger]

Having seen more than a few frayed extension cords run under rugs and in one case where some moron installed a carpet over one, plus seen extension cords used on electric string trimmers and cordless mowers covered with electric tape where the owner tagged the cord and chewed off some of a conductor, it comes down to everyone is paying to protect the uneducated and clueless and maybe save a few fire calls. I hear the same arguments against smoke and CO detectors. A nuisance for many but a lifesaver for a few. The alternative if let Darwin's theory sort it out.

 

[Pinesmoke]

In your first sentence you said it, some moron.

Paying for the lowest common denominator is becoming tiresome. Not to mention the "lowest" keeps getting lower.

 

[peakbagger]

Not always the individual that did the work gets killed or injured, its frequently innocent occupants like kids.

 

[EbS-P]

I’m a firm believer that continuing to update codes saves lives. Sure it is more expensive. So for a 40 slot panel say each code compliant breaker costs $50 more, the chance to save a life is not worth $2k? I didn’t have to put redress windows in the rooms in the basement my kids are sleeping in but I gladly spent lots of money for the windows and then a measly $120 for AFCI breakers.

So you don’t like it I get it. But laws and codes keep everyone safer.

As of 2020 exterior receptacles only need GFCI.

A good rundown of the 2020 codes. Anyone have more recent updates?

The Differences Between AFCIs and GFCIs

Do you know how these devices differ, and where to install them to meet NEC requirements?

www.ecmweb.com

 

[stoveliker]

I think codes are useful for where (some so-called) experts install things. I.e. average Jo(elle) hires an expert to fix the things that they themselves don't know anything about. There are many morons among such experts, even if they passed some exams and are accredited.

Having code helps protect those folks.
(ANd even more so if the average code inspector would be more knowledgeable than they are ...!!)

For folks doing things themselves, I do think they take on the responsibility for that. (And Darwin has a role to play there.) Don't do it if you don't know enough about it holds there.

 

[bigealta]

Well i can tell you my gcfi has instantly clicked the circuit off when i was working on a hot outlet and touched the outlet screw on the hot wire to the metal box. It shut the circuit before the breaker tripped. No "electric bang" in the box thanks to the GFCI.

 

[zrock]

I’m a firm believer that continuing to update codes saves lives. Sure it is more expensive. So for a 40 slot panel say each code compliant breaker costs $50 more, the chance to save a life is not worth $2k? I didn’t have to put redress windows in the rooms in the basement my kids are sleeping in but I gladly spent lots of money for the windows and then a measly $120 for AFCI breakers.

So you don’t like it I get it. But laws and codes keep everyone safer.

As of 2020 exterior receptacles only need GFCI.

A good rundown of the 2020 codes. Anyone have more recent updates?

The Differences Between AFCIs and GFCIs

Do you know how these devices differ, and where to install them to meet NEC requirements?

www.ecmweb.com

Natural selection saves lives as well in the long run.. Their is such a thing as taking the codes to far, when you cannot run a simple tool then the code has been taken to far. Back when i was young and people were much smarter you did not see the stupid stuff you see today people had pride in their work and their homes.

Having worked in the industry for quite a few years i have seen codes change for no reason.. They had worked perfectly since the beginning of time then the code gets changed costing someone thousands of $$ more to do the same function, they years later that same guy sitting behind a desk decided that maybe that was a bad idea and changes the code back to what it was previously...

Im all for changing code for the better but their are times when someone sitting behind a desk just gets board..

 

[EbS-P]

Natural selection saves lives as well in the long run.. Their is such a thing as taking the codes to far, when you cannot run a simple tool then the code has been taken to far. Back when i was young and people were much smarter you did not see the stupid stuff you see today people had pride in their work and their homes.

Having worked in the industry for quite a few years i have seen codes change for no reason.. They had worked perfectly since the beginning of time then the code gets changed costing someone thousands of $$ more to do the same function, they years later that same guy sitting behind a desk decided that maybe that was a bad idea and changes the code back to what it was previously...

Im all for changing code for the better but their are times when someone sitting behind a desk just gets board..

AFCI protection is better. We can discuss other codes in other threads. I see this code in a similar light to locked gates around pools. It can be a pain to open and close. If it saves anyone from drowning I would gladly go through that locked gate 60 times a day.

2023 AFCI and GFCI Performance Survey - Electrical Safety Foundation

58% of electrical contractor service calls involved tripped breakers or fuses. 100% of contractors saw evidence of dangerous arcing when responding to an AFCI related service call.

www.esfi.org

My vacuum has never tripped my AFCI but my cleaners has.

I get it nuisance trips suck. What’s your workaround. Mine. Battery powered saw Portable generator maybe.

 

[stoveliker]

If one thinks that codes are decided by "*someone* (bored) sitting behind a desk", it shows that that someone has zero knowledge of how codes get implemented.

 

[zrock]

LOL... im sure a new homeowner that likes to tinker outside will like to be told that he has to buy battery powered tools or a generator because someone was stupid at some point and a new code had to be written and a system had to be implemented because of their stupidity.. Like i said im all for code where it makes sense but this one is just plain stupid.. Even our local electricians say its stupid in some situations..

As far as codes being made by someone sitting behind a desk getting board, i can bring up lots of codes that were changed and then years later reverted back to what they were previously.. So that shows you right their the guy sitting behind a desk had no clue what he was doing but he was a great salesman..