Replacing Quadrafire with PE Super 27

[BradleyW]

I have a 15 year old Quadrafire 3100 and am thinking of replacing it with a Pacific Energy Super 27. Our house is an 1800 square foot cape in western Massachusetts. The Quad doesn't quite keep up with heating the house when it gets below about 15 degrees F. We supplement with a little oil and an old Fisher Mama Bear stove in the basement. I am hoping the Super will be able to supply all of the heat we need so that I don't have to fire a second stove or pay the oil man on those cold nights. I am also hoping it will have longer burn times and maybe be a little more efficient. Does anyone know if my hopes for these improvements are realistic, or should I stick with the Quad?

 

[aansorge]

I think the cubic ft. numbers are close. I'd go a size up.

 

[Grisu]

I would suggest taking a look at the firebox size to determine whether a stove will heat better than the 3100. The Super has a 2 cu ft firebox like the 3100. Thus, it is highly doubtful you will see any improvement. You will likely need to go to at least 2.5 cu ft to get noticeably more heat. The Enviro 1700 line would be an option at that size. For a large stove you can look at the PE Summit. What is your budget?

The wood is also important for overall heating efficiency. What kind of wood are you burning and how long has it been seasoned?

 

[begreen]

Another vote here for larger. Go for the Summit if you want a PE. It will be a better fit. I don't think you will gain any efficiency, but you should see longer burn times with the increased capacity. Or just continue the way you have been if you are only firing up the supplemental systems for a week or two a year.

 

[jeff_t]

I get some long burns at low to moderate output, but when pushing it, maybe six hours. Go bigger.

 

[thechimneysweep]

PE's Super Series firebox has higher efficiency and maximum output ratings than the 15-year-old version of the Quad 3100, but holds the same 2 cu.ft. load of wood, so you could expect to get either higher heat output or a longer burn time at the same heat output, but not both. The larger Summit firebox would give you a longer burn time plus higher heat output, which seems to be your goal. If you're going to make the switch, the Summit would be the best choice.

 

[stovelark]

Not even a hard one, go with the summit. Would second the nod to check out the Enviro 1700 Kodiak, its a tremendous heater, but if you go PE (Great choice too) I'd suggest the summit.

 

[BradleyW]

Thanks for all of the replies. I will try to answer some of your questions.
As far as our budget goes, I was hoping to stay under $2000. We were quoted in the $1700-$1900 range for the Super. We have a $750 voucher through the state of Massachusetts that will help with the cost, which is why we are considering this. I expect the voucher will basically cover installation (including a new stove pipe) and tax. Unfortunately, the Summit is a hair below the efficiency threshold for the voucher, so it isn't really an option. I will look into the Enviro Kodiak 1700. I did not see this at our local store, but I just looked online and they do carry Enviro stoves, so I will check it out. Thanks for the tip.
I'm not experienced enough to know much about the wood we got. As far as I could tell it was good and seasoned. After a couple months of practice and trial and error, I learned to build a good hot fire with it without seeing much if any smoke from the chimney, even on a cold start. That leads me to believe the wood was decent. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Thanks everyone for your warnings about getting a similar sized stove and hoping for a change in output. I guess that was wishful thinking.

 

[JA600L]

No smoke sounds good, but creosote build-up during clean-up will tell you the real truth. It is important to know what wood type you are using and the relative seasoning time required. Otherwise, get a moisture meter and test it. You are within the price range for the Ideal Steel from Woodstock. A much cheaper option would be an Englander NC30 . I would go big. My 4300 Quad isn't enough for me.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks for all of the replies. I will try to answer some of your questions.
As far as our budget goes, I was hoping to stay under $2000. We were quoted in the $1700-$1900 range for the Super. We have a $750 voucher through the state of Massachusetts that will help with the cost, which is why we are considering this. I expect the voucher will basically cover installation (including a new stove pipe) and tax. Unfortunately, the Summit is a hair below the efficiency threshold for the voucher, so it isn't really an option. I will look into the Enviro Kodiak 1700. I did not see this at our local store, but I just looked online and they do carry Enviro stoves, so I will check it out. Thanks for the tip.
I'm not experienced enough to know much about the wood we got. As far as I could tell it was good and seasoned. After a couple months of practice and trial and error, I learned to build a good hot fire with it without seeing much if any smoke from the chimney, even on a cold start. That leads me to believe the wood was decent. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Thanks everyone for your warnings about getting a similar sized stove and hoping for a change in output. I guess that was wishful thinking.

I took a look at that change-out program. (broken link removed to http://images.masscec.com/uploads/programdocs/Commonwealth%20Woodstove%20Change-Out%20Program%20Overview%20and%20Application%20Updated%203-4-14.pdf)
Did you apply to substitute the Quadrafire or the Fisher downstairs? It looks like the installer needs to sign off on the install which includes making the replaced non-EPA stove inoperable. To my knowledge, the 3100 is an EPA-stove and would not qualify for the voucher. According to the document, the new stove needs to be at least 75% efficient and have particulate emission of less than 3.5 g/hr for non-cat or 2.0 g/hr for a cat stove. Unfortunately, the Enviro 1700 stoves have higher emissions. There are not many large stoves out there that fulfill those requirements and cost about $2000. The Woodstock Ideal Steel would be a great option right now if you can find someone to install it. The Osburn 2400 also seems to fit the specs. I am not sure if the Englander NC-30 has been tested for efficiency but the emissions and price would work. You could also check out the Jotul F55 although the price may exceed your budget (but Jotul has a coupon on their website until the end of May).

Regarding the wood: Did you dry it yourself or did you go with the "seasoned" description of the wood seller? Be aware that most firewood dealers don't have the time and space to stack the wood up for one to two years to get it below 20% internal moisture content. If you buy your wood, I would get it now and stack it in a sunny and windy location in your yard. Put some lumber or pallets under it and some tarp or old metal roofing on top to protect it from rain (but leave the sides open). If it is mixed hardwood it will probably not be seasoned until the coming winter but should be good the winter after.

 

[BradleyW]

I took a look at that change-out program. (broken link removed to http://images.masscec.com/uploads/programdocs/Commonwealth%20Woodstove%20Change-Out%20Program%20Overview%20and%20Application%20Updated%203-4-14.pdf)
Did you apply to substitute the Quadrafire or the Fisher downstairs? It looks like the installer needs to sign off on the install which includes making the replaced non-EPA stove inoperable. To my knowledge, the 3100 is an EPA-stove and would not qualify for the voucher. According to the document, the new stove needs to be at least 75% efficient and have particulate emission of less than 3.5 g/hr for non-cat or 2.0 g/hr for a cat stove. Unfortunately, the Enviro 1700 stoves have higher emissions. There are not many large stoves out there that fulfill those requirements and cost about $2000. The Woodstock Ideal Steel would be a great option right now if you can find someone to install it. The Osburn 2400 also seems to fit the specs. I am not sure if the Englander NC-30 has been tested for efficiency but the emissions and price would work. You could also check out the Jotul F55 although the price may exceed your budget (but Jotul has a coupon on their website until the end of May).

Regarding the wood: Did you dry it yourself or did you go with the "seasoned" description of the wood seller? Be aware that most firewood dealers don't have the time and space to stack the wood up for one to two years to get it below 20% internal moisture content. If you buy your wood, I would get it now and stack it in a sunny and windy location in your yard. Put some lumber or pallets under it and some tarp or old metal roofing on top to protect it from rain (but leave the sides open). If it is mixed hardwood it will probably not be seasoned until the coming winter but should be good the winter after.

I will be turning in the Fisher downstairs. In my application I explained that I would take out the Fisher, move the Quad downstairs, and put the new stove upstairs, and they signed off on that. Thanks for checking out the emissions on the Enviro 1700--that was my next bit of research. I will look at the other four stoves you listed.
As far as my wood goes, last winter I had to go with the seller's description of "seasoned" because we had just bought the house and had no wood. For this coming year I think I am getting better wood. My bosses' brother-in-law has a set-up just like you describe: wood stacked on pallets in a sunny and windy spot. Oak has been seasoned for two years, and maple with a few other kinds seasoned for a year. Perhaps I will notice a difference this year with the better quality wood. I haven't had the chimney cleaned yet--I'm a little nervous (and embarrassed) about what the sweep will most likely find.

 

[Grisu]

I am wondering whether you really need a much larger stove when using truly seasoned wood. It sounds like the 3100 would almost be up to the task to heat the upstairs. However, I have trouble finding a larger mid-size stove that fits your requirements. Maybe the Lopi Endeavor although its firebox is only marginally bigger than the one of the 3100. Same for the Regency F2300. One more large stove you could check out is the Napoleon 1900. It will cost a bit more but maybe you can find a deal during this time of the year.
The already mentioned Ideal Steel would be a really good option as it has a more easily controlled heat output due to being a hybrid stove (catalytic and secondary burn). That stove will also get you the longest burn times; a nice feature when you are out of the house often. The Blazeking catalytic stoves will have the same advantages. The Princess or the 30 series models would be ideal but will cost more than you planned on spending. Still, over the whole life of the stove it will be a small amount.

Good to hear that you are getting dry wood for next winter. Plan also ahead for the winter after. I have a 2-year rotation, meaning I just stacked the wood that I want to burn 18 to 24 months from now.

 

[BradleyW]

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but thought I'd mention that we went to a different store and looked at the Jotul F55. Seems to fit our needs perfectly--size, budget, quality, everything. Also meets the requirements for the voucher program. How great it would be if it really heated the house and I didn't have to get up at 3:00 every morning to feed the beast!

 

[begreen]

Should do the job. Keep us posted.

 

[stovelark]

Great choice Bradley- I always say Jotuls just do their work everyday and do it well. They're also beautiful doing it. Good luck if that's the one.

 

[Grisu]

Congrats! The F55 is rather new but the reviews have been really positive so far. I am sure you will like its longer burn times compared with the 3100. We like to see pictures once it is installed.