Royall Indoor 6150 Question

[Triumph562]

Hello,

I have been a lurker for some time here. I have always wanted to use wood (or the option of coal) as a supplemental heating source. I recently ordered a Royall 6150 indoor boiler for my home to tie into my existing system.

I recently moved into a 2570 square foot home. 2x6 construction, insulated walls, attic, and the ceiling of the basement is insulated between the joists. It is a two story colonial of 2003 construction. Located in central Connecticut. I would define it as being a well insulated home. I am not planning on running thermal storage, but open to the possibility at a later time. I also may end up heating my basement and garage, which would add about 1500 square feet (potential maximum of 4000 square feet heating space).

I have a fear this boiler may be oversized. Royall states this boiler can heat up to 3000 square feet. I did a heating calculation (assuming I did it correctly) the heat loss came out to about 53,000 BTU/hr. I also plan to use this boiler for my DHW needs, which I know adds some heat load to that.

I brought this concern to Royall and the sales rep states their boilers are rated at half of an equivalent gas fired unit. Meaning a 150K BTU model is equivalent to a 75K BTU propane or natural gas boiler. He also stated I'm better off going a little bigger as to increase burn times.

Does this make any sense? As far as I'm concerned, an output BTU is an output BTU. Then there is the aspect of output BTUs over 8/12 hours, as wood is not a constant heat source. Perhaps that is what is eluding to. I also understand the rated output is based on a perfect burn condition at a single point in time.

For reference, my current system is hot water baseboard, 80% efficient oil fired boiler with tankless coil for DHW. It is rated at 175K input, 144K output, and 123K net IBR output BTUs. To me it seems a bit oversized, but I haven't lived with it through a winter yet to really know for sure. The previous owners stated they burned about 1200 gallons of oil a year.

Thoughts?

 

[salecker]

Plan on storage now and all you issues will be mute.
Storage gives you freedom from the firebox.
Without storage the boiler will control your life.
With storage...
Oversize no problem
Idling doesn't happen so no creosote issues
No need to rush home to start a fire

 

[Bad LP]

What he said. Go with storage now. Build your manifold now to have your future zones ready.
In my own personal experience a little larger is better for your BTU’s.

 

[JRHAWK9]

Curious, how these can still be sold? I work in the same small city these are built in (Reedsburg, WI). Unless somebody knows differently, these are smoke dragons.

 

[maple1]

Curious, how these can still be sold? I work in the same small city these are built in (Reedsburg, WI). Unless somebody knows differently, these are smoke dragons.

Wondering here also. Have never seen one but it looks like an ordinary old school water jacketed boiler. Which after living with similar I would not recommend to an enemy. Very inefficient, there are likely other concerns that would be more at play than being oversized for the load.

 

[Bad LP]

Wondering here also. Have never seen one but it looks like an ordinary old school water jacketed boiler. Which after living with similar I would not recommend to an enemy. Very inefficient, there are likely other concerns that would be more at play than being oversized for the load.

I was unaware they made indoor smoke dragons.
The chimney must be a goo pit.

 

[JRHAWK9]

I was unaware they made indoor smoke dragons.
The chimney must be a goo pit.

They make indoor wood furnaces as well, at least used to. I know a local guy who had one and helped clean his chimney one year. He'd first lower down a block of some sort and bang it up against the walls of the chimney as he lowered it and raised it in order to break all the creosote up as best he could. He'd then run a regular brush up and down it.

 

[Bad LP]

They make indoor wood furnaces as well, at least used to. I know a local guy who had one and helped clean his chimney one year. He'd first lower down a block of some sort and bang it up against the walls of the chimney as he lowered it and raised it in order to break all the creosote up as best he could. He'd then run a regular brush up and down it.

So their furnace has the same hi tech burning technology?? 😂

 

[brenndatomu]

What they said ^ ^ ^...you NEED storage right off the bat, especially if you are stuck with this smoke dragon (as in: too late to back out of the deal) reason being, even smoke dragons can be made to burn halfway clean if left to burn wide open (recharging the storage) instead of idling most of the time (something an oversized boiler will do a lot without storage...NOT good!)
Storage...do it!

 

[brenndatomu]

I looked it up...she is definitely a smoke dragon...stinkin forced air draft too!

Royall 6150 Residential Indoor Wood Boiler 150,000 btu

And with only 40 gallons of water on board, you have no choice but to do storage...you will hate hate hate this thing without it...not to mention the chimney fire risks.
To OP, do it right, do once! Install costs to do it right are gonna suck, but nothing is gonna get any cheaper, and the frustration of doing things over again, and having paid for stuff (materials and equipment) that can't be used now will sting a lot worse!

Oh, and how much wood do you have CSS'd (cut, split, stacked) already? That will be the other thing that determines your success on this journey...dry wood! And I don't mean wood that hasn't been rained on lately, I mean wood that is under 20% moisture content clear through. And wood drys VERY little until it is CSS'd...even fast drying species need a year, average woods need 2 years, and the slow drying stuff (oak) needs three...so if you don't have a large wood shed full already, better get to gettin!

Think about it like this...this model boiler has a 8.1 CF firebox...that's means you could load 150-200 lbs of dry wood...lets go with 200 lbs for easy math. Now say the wood is 20% moisture content (20% is the highest that can really be considered "dry"...18% would be better) so at 20% that 200 lbs of wood has 40 lbs of water in it...and at 8.345 lbs per gallon, that's almost 5 gallons of water!! Water is what firemen use to put fires OUT, right?
Point is, if "dry" wood can have that much water in it, you surely don't want to use wood that has even more water in it, do you?! Better get to CSS'ing!

 

[brenndatomu]

Curious, how these can still be sold? I work in the same small city these are built in (Reedsburg, WI). Unless somebody knows differently, these are smoke dragons.

I gotta think the EPA is gonna bring the smackdown on these bad actors, at some point. Can't believe that it hasn't happened already.
It would really suck if they enforced the EPA 2020 rules through HO insurance (very likely actually)...have a new install of an appliance that doesn't meet EPA 2020? No insurance for you. (unless you want to tear out your new heater)
Bank says, oh, no insurance?
Have cash to pay off?
No cash?
Bank repo.

 

[Triumph562]

I believe these are still able to be sold as they meant to be marketed as coal burners. In reality I will likely burn more coal than wood. So I'm hoping the issues described above will be only an occasional issue. However I want to burn some wood as well when I can get my hands on it. I live on a little over an acre so I have no easy access to wood (mostly my lawn). I'd likely buy tree rounds or split firewood from the farm across the street from me if I feel motivated. I'm in the process of building a wood shed that can hold at least two cords for cut and split firewood. I also recently bought a moisture meter as well. The marketing of the boiler technically should only make reference to burning coal, so yes, Royall is taking a risk here. Technically they are still legal as far as EPA is concerned, as long as they are used with coal. There are two or three bagged/bulk coal dealers nearby me.

To anothers post, I did check with my town, and homeowners insurance. Both said it was OK as long as it has it's own dedicated chimney flue, which it will (6" Selkirk Ultra-Temp being installed as of now while I wait for delivery). At least in CT, almost no one is aware of what the EPA standards are regarding solid fuel appliances. Indoor wood boiler use is just a very uncommon activity in my area. My impression is people (insurance, town, neighbors) would simply equate it to that of any old wood stove, EPA rated or not. I'm hoping the 6" flue will encourage higher flue temperatures vs an 8". Royall stated the unit is rated to work with a 6" or an 8" chimney. It has an 8" collar with 6" flue opening. The chimney will be 30'+ tall, which should alleviate some smoke issues.

Regarding storage, I will likely try it without storage at first, but I will have it piped in such a way to accomodate 100-200 gallons of storage down the road if needed. The cost has already gotten out of control without storage...

I really could not justify a gasification unit due to cost, size, and the fact I'd have to buy most of my fuel anyways. Then there is my desire to burn coal. All of the gasifiers I'm finding are larger outdoor models. The Froling S3 looked nice but just too expensive with the required storage. The Econoburn was the same thing, and likely too big to fit in my basement. I would be looking at a 30K+ system with gasification + storage. I think coal will make more sense as a primary fuel with the Royall. I really like the idea of it being dual fuel.

My biggest motivation is that I've always wanted a wood or coal stove. However my current situation does not allow me to have a wood or pellet stove in the living space (I won't go into details!). I see this as the best of both worlds. Heat the whole house and DHW, and have a toy to tinker with in my "Man Cave" in the basement. Especcially in the winter I like to play on my amateur radio set, so I will spend a lot of time near the boiler.

I have a club member who has a New Yorker WC-130 for a 1700 square foot home nearby me. He burns a combination of wood and coal. I believe the New Yorker is similar to the Royall in operation. He is very happy with the unit, installed in 1982 and still being used today. He did tell me he had some creosote issues and it required frequent cleaning of the chimney connector. He also does not have much smoke issues. He lives in a much denser neighborhood than I do.

Question - couldn't I simply batch load smaller loads of fuel, to encourage a smaller, hotter fire? I wouldn't mind more frequent loading if it made sense. The instruction manual specifically states to do so in milder temperatures.

Thank you for the replies.

 

[maple1]

Yes to your question. That would help.

 

[shawntitan]

I believe these are still able to be sold as they meant to be marketed as coal burners. In reality I will likely burn more coal than wood. So I'm hoping the issues described above will be only an occasional issue. However I want to burn some wood as well when I can get my hands on it. I live on a little over an acre so I have no easy access to wood (mostly my lawn). I'd likely buy tree rounds or split firewood from the farm across the street from me if I feel motivated. I'm in the process of building a wood shed that can hold at least two cords for cut and split firewood. I also recently bought a moisture meter as well. The marketing of the boiler technically should only make reference to burning coal, so yes, Royall is taking a risk here. Technically they are still legal as far as EPA is concerned, as long as they are used with coal. There are two or three bagged/bulk coal dealers nearby me.

To anothers post, I did check with my town, and homeowners insurance. Both said it was OK as long as it has it's own dedicated chimney flue, which it will (6" Selkirk Ultra-Temp being installed as of now while I wait for delivery). At least in CT, almost no one is aware of what the EPA standards are regarding solid fuel appliances. Indoor wood boiler use is just a very uncommon activity in my area. My impression is people (insurance, town, neighbors) would simply equate it to that of any old wood stove, EPA rated or not. I'm hoping the 6" flue will encourage higher flue temperatures vs an 8". Royall stated the unit is rated to work with a 6" or an 8" chimney. It has an 8" collar with 6" flue opening. The chimney will be 30'+ tall, which should alleviate some smoke issues.

Regarding storage, I will likely try it without storage at first, but I will have it piped in such a way to accomodate 100-200 gallons of storage down the road if needed. The cost has already gotten out of control without storage...

I really could not justify a gasification unit due to cost, size, and the fact I'd have to buy most of my fuel anyways. Then there is my desire to burn coal. All of the gasifiers I'm finding are larger outdoor models. The Froling S3 looked nice but just too expensive with the required storage. The Econoburn was the same thing, and likely too big to fit in my basement. I would be looking at a 30K+ system with gasification + storage. I think coal will make more sense as a primary fuel with the Royall. I really like the idea of it being dual fuel.

My biggest motivation is that I've always wanted a wood or coal stove. However my current situation does not allow me to have a wood or pellet stove in the living space (I won't go into details!). I see this as the best of both worlds. Heat the whole house and DHW, and have a toy to tinker with in my "Man Cave" in the basement. Especcially in the winter I like to play on my amateur radio set, so I will spend a lot of time near the boiler.

I have a club member who has a New Yorker WC-130 for a 1700 square foot home nearby me. He burns a combination of wood and coal. I believe the New Yorker is similar to the Royall in operation. He is very happy with the unit, installed in 1982 and still being used today. He did tell me he had some creosote issues and it required frequent cleaning of the chimney connector. He also does not have much smoke issues. He lives in a much denser neighborhood than I do.

Question - couldn't I simply batch load smaller loads of fuel, to encourage a smaller, hotter fire? I wouldn't mind more frequent loading if it made sense. The instruction manual specifically states to do so in milder temperatures.

Thank you for the replies.

Wanted to jump in here, I’ve actually been burning a New Yorker WC 130 for about 12 years. I switched over fully to anthracite coal after a couple years, because I wasn’t able to control the ridiculous creosote from idling, when outside temps were up (I’m in NJ) or get long enough burn times when temps were down. I’m actually relatively happy with it as a coal burner. As I’d planned on buying my firewood anyhow, the cost of the coal isn’t as big of a shock as it would have been if I was sitting on a large, free wood lot. I definitely recommend the coalpail forum for more coal info, great resource over there.
One note about my struggles with coal and my chimneys, copied from a previous post
about stainless pipe (Duravent, which I believe is 430 stainless)
“I'm on my third year with Duravent, and I'm amazed at how quick it seems to be rusting. My cap and bottom-tee cap both rusted to failure the first season. Convinced the company to replace them under warranty, but they told me I must be burning "low quality coal" and that they wouldn't be replacing them again. I knew it wouldn't last forever, but wow! The straight sections and tee themselves seem to be holding up a little better, but are visibly rusting inside and out. (Note: they later rusted to failure as well, in less then ten years) At the end of each season I've disassembled them, brushed them out, and stored them in my garage, hoping to prolong the inevitable. My black iron pipe inside the boiler room has also rusted to failure more than once in the few years that I've been running my boiler.
Recently switched to 316 Stainless pipe, which seems much heavier duty. Hoping for the best.”

 

[Triumph562]

Wanted to jump in here, I’ve actually been burning a New Yorker WC 130 for about 12 years. I switched over fully to anthracite coal after a couple years, because I wasn’t able to control the ridiculous creosote from idling, when outside temps were up (I’m in NJ) or get long enough burn times when temps were down. I’m actually relatively happy with it as a coal burner. As I’d planned on buying my firewood anyhow, the cost of the coal isn’t as big of a shock as it would have been if I was sitting on a large, free wood lot. I definitely recommend the coalpail forum for more coal info, great resource over there.
One note about my struggles with coal and my chimneys, copied from a previous post
about stainless pipe (Duravent, which I believe is 430 stainless)
“I'm on my third year with Duravent, and I'm amazed at how quick it seems to be rusting. My cap and bottom-tee cap both rusted to failure the first season. Convinced the company to replace them under warranty, but they told me I must be burning "low quality coal" and that they wouldn't be replacing them again. I knew it wouldn't last forever, but wow! The straight sections and tee themselves seem to be holding up a little better, but are visibly rusting inside and out. (Note: they later rusted to failure as well, in less then ten years) At the end of each season I've disassembled them, brushed them out, and stored them in my garage, hoping to prolong the inevitable. My black iron pipe inside the boiler room has also rusted to failure more than once in the few years that I've been running my boiler.
Recently switched to 316 Stainless pipe, which seems much heavier duty. Hoping for the best.”

Maple1, thank you for the confirmation on my question. I am going to leave the possibility of adding storage in the future which should help too.

Shawntitan, we seem to be in a similar situation. My friend who runs a New Yorker stated his biggest complaint was the heat exchanger tubes inside the firebox. He stated they seemed to collect the most creosote and were meticulous to clean. The Royall does not have such tubes, so hopefully it is easier to clean. My need to purchase fuel was my motivation to consider coal operation. I also appreciate the fact there is no smoke with coal. Regrading creosote, I'd gather CT temperatures tend to trend a little cooler than NJ so I'm hoping I can extend my potential wood season and reduce idling. How many square feet are you heating, and do you run DHW on your New Yorker?

I did check out coalpail.com. I found other resources there regarding my application. I feel a bit more informed and better about my purchase after researching the convenience of coal operation.

Regarding your chimney story. I am hoping my chimney holds up. I am using Selkirk Ultra-Temp. I believe it is their most premium chimney pipe. The page states it is:

• 304 Stainless Steel Inner Liner
• 430 Stainless Steel Outer Wall

All-Fuel Chimney - Ultra-Temp

Ultra Temp is the superior choice with stainless steel inner liner and outer jacket for small residential applications to large custom chimney projects. Available in 4"–14" Diameters Stainless Steel inner and outer Mirror Finish Twist-Lock for secure connection Solid Pack Insulation

www.selkirkcorp.com

I will update the forum as things progress. I'm hoping everything is plumbed in within the next few months.

 

[brenndatomu]

316ti SS chimney pipe/liners is what is recommended for coal (fine for wood too)

 

[shawntitan]

Maple1, thank you for the confirmation on my question. I am going to leave the possibility of adding storage in the future which should help too.

Shawntitan, we seem to be in a similar situation. My friend who runs a New Yorker stated his biggest complaint was the heat exchanger tubes inside the firebox. He stated they seemed to collect the most creosote and were meticulous to clean. The Royall does not have such tubes, so hopefully it is easier to clean. My need to purchase fuel was my motivation to consider coal operation. I also appreciate the fact there is no smoke with coal. Regrading creosote, I'd gather CT temperatures tend to trend a little cooler than NJ so I'm hoping I can extend my potential wood season and reduce idling. How many square feet are you heating, and do you run DHW on your New Yorker?

I did check out coalpail.com. I found other resources there regarding my application. I feel a bit more informed and better about my purchase after researching the convenience of coal operation.

Regarding your chimney story. I am hoping my chimney holds up. I am using Selkirk Ultra-Temp. I believe it is their most premium chimney pipe. The page states it is:

• 304 Stainless Steel Inner Liner
• 430 Stainless Steel Outer Wall

All-Fuel Chimney - Ultra-Temp

Ultra Temp is the superior choice with stainless steel inner liner and outer jacket for small residential applications to large custom chimney projects. Available in 4"–14" Diameters Stainless Steel inner and outer Mirror Finish Twist-Lock for secure connection Solid Pack Insulation

www.selkirkcorp.com

I will update the forum as things progress. I'm hoping everything is plumbed in within the next few months.

Perhaps the New Yorker WC-130’s were redesigned after I purchased mine (approximately 2008ish) but I’ve got no heat exchanger tubes in mine. It appears similar to the Royall boiler, just a “box in box” design. My creosote all collected in the chimney.
I’m heating approximately 3400 sqft, no domestic hot water. On coal, I’ve been able to maintain house temps at 68 degrees, at zero degree outside temp.
All in all, I’m happy with my boiler, since I’ve switched to coal. No creosote, no ”raging inferno” when my wife has to load the stove. I did have to make some tweaks to the shaker handle, after I switched from wood to coal, and there’s definitely a little learning curve with coal, but the coalpail folks should be able to help you out with any issues you might run into. Overall, coal seems to want a deep bed, and minimal “fooling with”

 

[Triumph562]

I just wanted to update everyone. I ended up cancelling the Royall boiler order due to the concerns stated in this thread, and verifying them from other research. I calculated that wood gasification is actually cheaper than coal. Coal prices went through the roof.

However Royall is now going to fabricate a pressurized storage tank for me, so this way it's a win-win for us. Royall has been very accommodating to me and helped me out on my last minute compromise. They didn't have to do that for me.

I ended up purchasing an EKO 25 from New Horizon. I just placed the order. A proper gasifier with storage! And now it will more or less exactly match my heat load.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

 

[maple1]

Your boiler should actually have quite a bit more output than your heat load, when using storage. Otherwise it will have its hands full just heating your space and you won't be able to take full advantage of the storage. I think the Eko 25 is a 25kw rated boiler? Mine is 40kw, dont think I would want much smaller. Or less than the 660 gallons of storage I have. Also you have to be real careful with the forced draft Eko, if it is inside. Spills smoke quite easily when reloading. I think.

 

[Triumph562]

Your boiler should actually have quite a bit more output than your heat load, when using storage. Otherwise it will have its hands full just heating your space and you won't be able to take full advantage of the storage. I think the Eko 25 is a 25kw rated boiler? Mine is 40kw, dont think I would want much smaller. Or less than the 660 gallons of storage I have. Also you have to be real careful with the forced draft Eko, if it is inside. Spills smoke quite easily when reloading. I think.

Maple,

It is a 25KW/85KBTU output. I calculated my heat loss to be around 53K BTU. This was a Form J calculation from a HVAC textbook my co-workers lent me who are licensed HVAC techs. Assuming I did it correctly, I should have a little headroom for DHW too. This was for a 0 degree design day. Connecticut winter climate is pretty mild, we seldom go into single digits here. If I did the calculation wrong, I should still have some wiggle room. If not, I'll have a big enough buffer for milder days at least. I was going to do about 230-300 gallons of storage, essentially one big vertical tank adjacent the boiler. From what I could tell, only the 25KW models were left. Still a great deal compared to the Froling or Vedlux which are over double the cost. New Horizon informed me they will likely start only importing Attack boilers in the future.

Regarding smoke I was warned about that, however I'm going to have extra combustion air inlet down there, and I might add a vented range cooktop hood over the boiler to catch any smoke if that happens. There is also an add-on draft inducer that can be attached if needed. We shall see, my chimney seems to have very good draft. Plus the huge air leaks around the Bilco hatch probably help with inlet air too.

EDIT

How many square feet did your EKO 40 heat, and what are your building heat loss characteristics?

 

[maple1]

Maple,

It is a 25KW/85KBTU output. I calculated my heat loss to be around 53K BTU. This was a Form J calculation from a HVAC textbook my co-workers lent me who are licensed HVAC techs. Assuming I did it correctly, I should have a little headroom for DHW too. This was for a 0 degree design day. Connecticut winter climate is pretty mild, we seldom go into single digits here. If I did the calculation wrong, I should still have some wiggle room. If not, I'll have a big enough buffer for milder days at least. I was going to do about 230-300 gallons of storage, essentially one big vertical tank adjacent the boiler. From what I could tell, only the 25KW models were left. Still a great deal compared to the Froling or Vedlux which are over double the cost. New Horizon informed me they will likely start only importing Attack boilers in the future.

Regarding smoke I was warned about that, however I'm going to have extra combustion air inlet down there, and I might add a vented range cooktop hood over the boiler to catch any smoke if that happens. There is also an add-on draft inducer that can be attached if needed. We shall see, my chimney seems to have very good draft. Plus the huge air leaks around the Bilco hatch probably help with inlet air too.

EDIT

How many square feet did your EKO 40 heat, and what are your building heat loss characteristics?

I have a Varm. UB40. From rough guessing based on wood consumption since I got it, I think we average around 30kbtu/hr heat loss over the winter. With 660 gallons of storage tanks, I usually burn about 6 hours a day. A couple more hours on our coldest days.