Running away?

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

I woke up at about 2am, the Vigilant had puffed, not unheard of, but it has been behaving very well lately. When I came down to check the room was quite warm, stack temp was 800, and I usually run it around 350 in horizontalmode, so it had some creosote it was burning off in the elbow anyway, again, it has happened before, I checked the back with an IR thermometer, 550-650 on the back of the stove, 400 range at the doors and lid. As the temperature settled down in the elbow as did the back, down to 450, but then the front wood compartment of the stove started to heat up and really throw heat, 650-675 at the surface of the doors. Eventually I shut the secondary down and am monitoring it, still getting surface temperature readings of around 550-650 degrees depending on where I check. As time goes by now over the total course of an hour and a half, with the thermostatic damper closed, and the secondary now shut down, the fire box area is starting to settle significantly to surface temperature at the griddle of 480 and the doors around 500, so things are cooling down. I plan to take the morning off and sweep the chimney again, maybe shovel out the stove and pull the elbow off and see what things look like.
Clearly I need to replace my thermometer because what I thought to be 350 is reading around 250-275with the IR so it never actually saw the 900 degrees i saw the stack thermometer top out at.
The stove is due for another overhaul come spring, and I hate to pull it out right now and do it.
I have witnessed this behavior a couple times before here in this house I thought I had the problem resolved by redoing the door gaskets and reworking the doors for a better fit, which was done last year, and it has been well behaved ever since. I blame creosote buildup that I struggle with on the stupidly installed stainless liner. This stove was in my parents house before this, and I have never known it to behave this way there, but needles to say i have almost 39 years experience with this particular stove.
Anyone have an explanation for any of this that I am missing?

 

[kborndale]

If creosote buildup is your problem then you most likely have wet wood. What is the moisture content of your wood? Why did 500-650 stovetop temps bother you? That's about where it should be running.

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

If creosote buildup is your problem then you most likely have wet wood. What is the moisture content of your wood? Why did 500-650 stovetop temps bother you? That's about where it should be running.

Well, several factors are at play here, 5-600 degree temps aren’t so scary except that they happened 4 hours into an 8 hour burn. Also my thermometer was going as high as 900+, it evidently isn’t very accurate, but at the time it was alarming. Not being able to damp it down was a concern, but I wasn’t sure I wanted to, maybe letting it burn out seemed as logical. The movement of the hot spots was a bit perplexing.
As for my wood it has been covered for a couple years, I am usually a full year ahead on wood, as in what I put up in the fall doesn’t get burned that winter but the following, and it is put up inside, this last couple years i have been behind on it, but I have a log load coming, which I usually don’t do, however I believe it will save me some time and allow me to get ahead again.
The not so dry wood is something I am aware of, not pleased about and am keeping an eye on.

 

[kborndale]

Sounds like you said, a creosote deposit lit up. I would just sweep the chimney more often until you get ahead on your wood. Some species of wood can take 3 years to season. Get a moisture meter if you don't have one. They are like $30 on Amazon or at home Depot.

 

[bholler]

Well, several factors are at play here, 5-600 degree temps aren’t so scary except that they happened 4 hours into an 8 hour burn. Also my thermometer was going as high as 900+, it evidently isn’t very accurate, but at the time it was alarming. Not being able to damp it down was a concern, but I wasn’t sure I wanted to, maybe letting it burn out seemed as logical. The movement of the hot spots was a bit perplexing.
As for my wood it has been covered for a couple years, I am usually a full year ahead on wood, as in what I put up in the fall doesn’t get burned that winter but the following, and it is put up inside, this last couple years i have been behind on it, but I have a log load coming, which I usually don’t do, however I believe it will save me some time and allow me to get ahead again.
The not so dry wood is something I am aware of, not pleased about and am keeping an eye on.

You said creosote deposit lit up. That's called a chimney fire and could explain many of the symptoms

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

You said creosote deposit lit up. That's called a chimney fire and could explain many of the symptoms

Yes, it is a chimney fire, it was not one with a blockage and it was not one that reached the top of the chimney, with the construction of the chimney, the stainless liner I wasn’t super concerned, 25 years in the fire service has given me a lot of experience in the “put it out now” approach. Looking at it from my chair by the stove, knowing the maintenance, and construction of the equipment involved and not wanting to push any panic buttons is a different side of that situation. the more i have thought about the nature of a burning chimney, the mire it makes sense, the extreme draft created would tend to cool the stove to an extent even while fueling the fire because of the air pulling In from anywhere it could, then as the chimney dies down the stove would run quite hot for a time, it all makes sense but I needed to talk it out, thanks everyone for allowing me to do that here, it is a great resource.

As an update, I have cleaned the chimney as of this morning, I even went so far as to swap in a recently overhauled Vigilant and pull mine apart for an overhaul, I ordered gaskets and cement today, I will make my own tie rods as needed, one big step is to braze the cracked fireback, it has needed doing, the crack has not displaced nor warped, so I wasn’t too worried, but I have had luck brazing them before and I am debating between using brass or stainless, I will keep an update on that when I do it.

 

[bholler]

Yes, it is a chimney fire, it was not one with a blockage and it was not one that reached the top of the chimney, with the construction of the chimney, the stainless liner I wasn’t super concerned, 25 years in the fire service has given me a lot of experience in the “put it out now” approach. Looking at it from my chair by the stove, knowing the maintenance, and construction of the equipment involved and not wanting to push any panic buttons is a different side of that situation. the more i have thought about the nature of a burning chimney, the mire it makes sense, the extreme draft created would tend to cool the stove to an extent even while fueling the fire because of the air pulling In from anywhere it could, then as the chimney dies down the stove would run quite hot for a time, it all makes sense but I needed to talk it out, thanks everyone for allowing me to do that here, it is a great resource.

As an update, I have cleaned the chimney as of this morning, I even went so far as to swap in a recently overhauled Vigilant and pull mine apart for an overhaul, I ordered gaskets and cement today, I will make my own tie rods as needed, one big step is to braze the cracked fireback, it has needed doing, the crack has not displaced nor warped, so I wasn’t too worried, but I have had luck brazing them before and I am debating between using brass or stainless, I will keep an update on that when I do it.

Why stick with vc? And did you inspect the liner etc for any damage?

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

Why stick with vc? And did you inspect the liner etc for any damage?

Yes, I did inspect it with a camera, I like the old VC stoves, I grew up with them for one, we really liked the old dealer, and being from VT, I like a VT product.

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

The “new” Vigilant.

 

[bholler]

Yes, I did inspect it with a camera, I like the old VC stoves.

Good. And if you like them fine. But there are much better stoves out there that simply work better

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

Good. And if you like them fine. But there are much better stoves out there that simply work better

I tore out a big azz Frontier, fire breathing monster and reliable as a brick. I like the Vigilant. I may go with an Encore, or maybe even a progress Hybrid someday.

 

[bholler]

I tore out a big azz Frontier, fire breathing monster and reliable as a brick. I like the Vigilant. I may go with an Encore, or maybe even a progress Hybrid someday.

The newer vc stuff is nothing like the older ones

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

The newer vc stuff is nothing like the older ones

My parents have had several newer ones, IMO they are well designed, but have some shortcomings and require maintenance that is more complex than the older ones, and therefore doesn’t always get done. 2 Encores weren’t worth rebuilding, they replaced a Viglant and a Defiant Encore, which was a perfectly fine stove but got replaced because my mother fell in love with the pretty enamel, the Encores got replaced with a low usage Defiant Encore and a Vigilant, which have been relatively trouble free.
Both Encores developed cracked tops, and cost of repair for that and internals sent both on their way, both were the non catalytic model.
I have some experience with the new stoves, which is why I keep fussing with the old ones. Currently looking for a D3 because I like the top load.

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

So my first full day with this “new” stove, the damper won’t stay shut/over center unless you weight it, and it hits the top until the stove gets hot, so not exactly thrilled with that, but it is otherwise behaving very well and I am happy for the moment, but I really want mine back!
Now that I know my thermometer is off I am running it hotter than I had been, so hopefully that helps with future buildup.

 

[coal and wood man]

Get an infrared thermometer that you just point and click. Accurate and spot on. They also have an LED to show the exact placement of where the reading is from. Just make sure the thermometer goes high enough. Some only do readings up to the 700 degree range.

 

[stoveliker]

Get an infrared thermometer that you just point and click. Accurate and spot on. They also have an LED to show the exact placement of where the reading is from. Just make sure the thermometer goes high enough. Some only do readings up to the 700 degree range.

Just to ensure no artificially low readings are taken as a fact:
That laser spot is the place that is the *center* of the reading, but the area over which the reading is averaged is far larger than the size of the spot. So if you're within an inch or so of an edge of something, your reading will be quite lower (averaged over an area beyond the edge) than what the temperature of the metal there is.

 

[Stoney Meadow Maple]

Just to ensure no artificially low readings are taken as a fact:
That laser spot is the place that is the *center* of the reading, but the area over which the reading is averaged is far larger than the size of the spot. So if you're within an inch or so of an edge of something, your reading will be quite lower (averaged over an area beyond the edge) than what the temperature of the metal there is.

Yes, mine will do spot instant read and you can also hold and scan, when you release you can look at the high/low values. I think it goes to 2,000 degrees.

 

[Fred B. NJ]

I have experienced the same thing many times over the years. One common factor is the outside weather conditions. For me it is usually no wind, temp around 30° +/-. Gasses build up in the firebox and a slight downdraft will cause these gasses to ignite and cause a back puff. I usually pull any wood or coals away from the air holes on the back plate as much as possible. Another way is to also put in more wood, this will also lower the temperature. I also learned to give up using the damper and just burn updraft. This cut the back puffs down to only about once a burning season. My Vigilant is the one I bought in 1981 and has been in use every year since.

 

[Pinesmoke]

I have experienced the same thing many times over the years. One common factor is the outside weather conditions. For me it is usually no wind, temp around 30° +/-. Gasses build up in the firebox and a slight downdraft will cause these gasses to ignite and cause a back puff. I usually pull any wood or coals away from the air holes on the back plate as much as possible. Another way is to also put in more wood, this will also lower the temperature. I also learned to give up using the damper and just burn updraft. This cut the back puffs down to only about once a burning season. My Vigilant is the one I bought in 1981 and has been in use every year since.

My old Dutch West had the same quirks. It really didn't like low and slow above freezing. Add to that calm and humid outside and it was a handful.