Santa Fe Yet Again

[biglar]

A couple or 3 weeks ago, several tried to help me with a problem with my 11 year old Quadra Fire Santa Fe. It wasn't feeding pellets and I finally traced it to a bad control module. I had a spare on hand, so installed it and the stove ran fine for 1½ days, then quit again. Several factors seemed to be a little off but nothing stood out as being a definite problem.....and I finally bit the bullet and agreed the new control module was the problem. I ordered a new one last week and it came in yesterday, so today I carefully read the instructions, installed the new ground, set the module at 6 clicks and installed it - with power cord unplugged.

The #2 snap disk is closing but ohmmeter readings don't show a true closed circuit - shows a varying resistance that seems to average around 68 ohms, so I jumpered it. ( I do have a spare and will install it tomorrow ) The vacuum switch does close but seems to be slow sometimes, so I jumpered it as well. Then I plugged it in, the red light came on and the blue light blinked 7 times - as it should. It felt like the pellet feed auger motor was vibrating, but I wasn't getting any pellets to the firebox. Stripped gear in the motor assembly ?? OK, I pulled the entire auger assembly out and put it on the bench. Connecting the wires directly to a 120vac source ( actually measured 122vac ) showed the motor to be running fine, so I re-installed it.

This time when I plugged the stove in, the auger did run and I got a few pellets into the firebox, but not enuf to start a fire. I thought that was probably due to the auger feed tube being depleted of pellets when removing the auger, so ran it thru several cycles to get pellets moving again.....and after 3 or 4 tries, it completely stopped again. No pellet feed. Igniter was glowing red hot, combustion air blower running full speed and right back to square one - no auger. You know, I'm absolutely disgusted and walked away before I damaged something.

I consider my self to be quite knowledgeable on this kind of thing - I owned and operated a restaurant service business for years before I retired, but this has me going. Any ideas of what I should check ?? How can I be certain this module hasn't gone bad, too ?? If it has, what could be killing them ?? - this is the 3rd in a row. At $200 a whack, this is getting expensive, but everything else checks OK. I dunno - with the current freezing night time temps, the propane furnace is barely keeping up, but at least it's some heat and the house is liveable. I'd much rather be using my pellet stove.

 

[Ssyko]

When you were running it to fill the feed tube did the auger turn? On the plug of the auger There is a capacitor if it goes bad and they do (i keep some in my tool bag) the auger will turn backwards and it won't feed but it turns.

 

[biglar]

Thanks for the reply. I've been thru the manual and don't see any help there. Clean ?? I vacuumed out the firebox, cleaned the tubes above, pulled the plate in right rear and vacuumed out the passage there, scraped the firepot and dump gate. Cleaned the air holes. Everything works smoothly and looks good. I put a new door gasket on it just a couple or 3 weeks ago.....?? Seems a simple enuf circuit - 120vac comes from the control module, thru #2 snap disk, thru the vacuum switch, up to the motor and on to ground. I've jumpered the #2 and vacuum switches, so it should be even more simple.

When I was trying it, I put 2 fingers on the output shaft of the motor, where the collars with set screws are to feel if it was turning. Nope, not turning at all, tho' when I 1st installed the new (3rd) control module, it did run and feed normally, just not enuf which I attributed to the pellet feed tube being empty from pulling the auger. It takes time to bring pellets all the way up, so ran it thru several start cycles. After the 3rd or 4th cycle it stopped turning. Usually, at 1st it'll run for....30 seconds ??.....to start a small fire, then when thermostat is satisfied at 200º the auger will start cycling a few seconds at a time throughout the run period. It's not doing that.

I'll go ahead and order a capacitor and give that a try. Thanks again.

 

[Ssyko]

I've jumpered the #2 and vacuum switches, so it should be even more simple.

The new control board came withe TC grounding wires, are they in the correct locations? Any lights coming on in the box besides the blue light?

 

[biglar]

Solved it....and it was completely unexpected. Apparently some teeth broke off the output gear in the speed reduction unit. When I ran it in my hand, friction or a bit of gear tooth or...something...gave enuf pressure to drive it past that. When I gripped the output, it turned strongly and I couldn't hold it so figgered it was OK.

When I put it back in the stove and there was pellet pressure against it, it would come to the broken section, the motor would keep running but the auger wouldn't turn. I have a spare motor ass'y in reserve, so installed it and the stove appears to be running normally. I disconnected all jumpers, re-connected #2 snap disk and the vacuum switch, made sure all spade connections were tight and let 'er rip.

It's gone thru 1 thermostat cycle so far and looks good. Keep 'em crossed.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Problem with the reduction drives (and this applies to any stove, any make so long as it's a biomass unit) is. The reduction boxes have cheap grease in them from the manufacturer and the heat cycles they are subjected to dries the grease out inside them and eventually, the gears have no lubrication and they fail. No grease= failure.

Simple fix though. Add a grease fitting at the top of the gearbox and grease it. If you don't want to add a fitting, drill a small hole at the top of the gearbox and use a chainsaw sprocket nose greaser.

Give it a couple shots every season. If it gets too full, it will weep out around the input bearing where the armature shaft enters the gearbox.

Been running the same reduction drives that came with my stove 18 years ago. No issues ever.

The heat of operation kills the grease inside.

 

[SidecarFlip]

It gets cold in New Mexico? Everytime I've hunted there in November-December it was warm during the day and cool at night but never cold like up here in Michigan...

 

[Former Farmer]

It is like when you have a 40* day in the spring versus in the fall. In the fall, it feels cool but in the spring it feels warm. I really don't like when it gets below 0* though. That's just nasty. Then throw in some wind and have your equipment breakdown because it doesn't like it either.

 

[biglar]

I feel sick. That damned thing ran for 1 hour and quit again, right at bed time. It was very erratic during that hour. High flame, low flame, almost out, then really roaring. Very careful checking showed that the auger motor was turning - the end of the shaft is visible and could feel it with a fingertip, but the auger isn't turning. No way to send it back - I bought it 6 or 8 years ago as a spare and have no idea of where I bought it. I'll tear into it again today, but I'm really burning.....upset and p---ed off would be a mild understatement.

On the old one - every fall I go thru the whole stove with a zoom spout oiler (10 wt oil) and touch up all bearings. There's a vent on the gearbox that I pay attention to as well. Lots of lubricant in there - it's leaked some and made a mess - and it ran over 10 years with no problems other than kicking the reset fairly often.

I had set the depth collar to where it was before I started, but I'm uneasy about it. It appears to act as a seal against the plate with the gasket. How much pressure should that collar be putting against the plate ??

 

[SidecarFlip]

The issue with COLD is it also drops the RH and when the RH is low, even if the thermometer inside says it's toasty, it don't 'feel toasty' because you are aspirating body moisture at a much higher rate and that causes you to 'feel colder'. Why I maintain by inside RH at at least 55% all winter. That way 70 (f) 'feels toasty'.

 

[Former Farmer]

I feel sick. That damned thing ran for 1 hour and quit again, right at bed time. It was very erratic during that hour. High flame, low flame, almost out, then really roaring. Very careful checking showed that the auger motor was turning - the end of the shaft is visible and could feel it with a fingertip, but the auger isn't turning.

Are you sure the auger isn't turning?

What length are your pellets? Is it possible that they are not feeding evenly because some of them are on the longer side? My Castile will "surge" sometimes as well and I think it is because of the length of the pellets.

You could try opening the adjuster plate a little and see if that helps.

 

[biglar]

I swear this thing is sentient and out to get me......you guys are going to recommend I be institutionalized.

OK, this morning, a few minutes ago:

1) I dug the old motor/auger drive out of the trash and hooked it up to 120vac. Thinking it likely had broken teeth on an output gear, when it started running I gripped the output shaft and waited for it to hit the broken spot. No such thing - it turned strongly thru 3 full revolutions. I held strong pressure on it to be sure it was solid, but not to the point of silly and breaking the thing by testing it. I'm here to say that motor/drive is good, after all.

2) I went back to the new motor on the stove and hooked it directly to 120vac and it started running. I swear....the motor armature shaft was turning and turning fast. I could hear the humming and could feel the end of the shaft with my finger. Yup, it's turning.....but the auger wasn't. Brand spanking new out of the box ?? How can this be ?? I'm absolutely certain I tightened the set screw holding auger to motor output shaft. Oh well, pull it out of there. At least, with all this fussing with it, I've discovered an easy way to pull it/re-install it with full pellet tube without spilling pellets and making a mess.

3) Here's the kicker: I put the new motor with auger still attached on the bench - and didn't check the set screw - and connected it directly to 120vac. It ran.....and so did the auger. ????? How can this be ?? I held the auger in one hand and the motor in the other for several complete revolutions, looking for a break in operation. None. Rock solid and couldn't hold it with reasonable pressure without breaking it myself. Break - I just now dropped everything and checked that set screw. Not only was it solidly tight, but was on the flat of the shaft as well, right where it's s'posed to be.

Well.....I'm sitting here staring at the thing....befuddled. How can 2 separate motor/drive units function perfectly on the bench; motor shaft turn but not the auger when in the stove ?? It defies reason. About all I can think of to check now is the preload on the output shaft. "Maybe" if I've got the collar set too far down, it's putting enuf pressure on the output to push the gears out of mesh ?? Is that possible ?? I did pay careful attention to alignment when putting it back together, but maybe I was off a bit ?? I don't know and I'm sick to death of this thing.....but it's gotta be done.

I repeat - in the stove, the motor turns but the auger doesn't. On the bench, it turns so strongly that I can't hold the auger still. ????? That set screw is tight - I just checked it. Gotta be gears.....?? "Nothing" is slipping. Mercy - this isn't rocket science. It's a very simple drive train.

 

[biglar]

I swear this thing is sentient and out to get me......you guys are going to recommend I be institutionalized.

OK, this morning, a few minutes ago:

1) I dug the old motor/auger drive out of the trash and hooked it up to 120vac. Thinking it likely had broken teeth on an output gear, when it started running I gripped the output shaft and waited for it to hit the broken spot. No such thing - it turned strongly thru 3 full revolutions. I held strong pressure on it to be sure it was solid, but not to the point of silly and breaking the thing by testing it. I'm here to say that motor/drive is good, after all.

2) I went back to the new motor on the stove and hooked it directly to 120vac and it started running. I swear....the motor armature shaft was turning and turning fast. I could hear the humming and could feel the end of the shaft with my finger. Yup, it's turning.....but the auger wasn't. Brand spanking new out of the box ?? How can this be ?? I'm absolutely certain I tightened the set screw holding auger to motor output shaft. Oh well, pull it out of there. At least, with all this fussing with it, I've discovered an easy way to pull it/re-install it with full pellet tube without spilling pellets and making a mess.

3) Here's the kicker: I put the new motor with auger still attached on the bench - and didn't check the set screw - and connected it directly to 120vac. It ran.....and so did the auger. ????? How can this be ?? I held the auger in one hand and the motor in the other for several complete revolutions, looking for a break in operation. None. Rock solid and couldn't hold it with reasonable pressure without breaking it myself. Break - I just now dropped everything and checked that set screw. Not only was it solidly tight, but was on the flat of the shaft as well, right where it's s'posed to be.

Well.....I'm sitting here staring at the thing....befuddled. How can 2 separate motor/drive units function perfectly on the bench; motor shaft turn but not the auger when in the stove ?? It defies reason. About all I can think of to check now is the preload on the output shaft. "Maybe" if I've got the collar set too far down, it's putting enuf pressure on the output to push the gears out of mesh ?? Is that possible ?? I did pay careful attention to alignment when putting it back together, but maybe I was off a bit ?? I don't know and I'm sick to death of this thing.....but it's gotta be done.

I repeat - in the stove, the motor turns but the auger doesn't. On the bench, it turns so strongly that I can't hold the auger still. ????? That set screw is tight - I just checked it. Gotta be gears.....?? "Nothing" is slipping. Mercy - this isn't rocket science. It's a very simple drive train.

 

[Mt Bob]

LOL,ya, the gears inside(there are many,also wear into the bushings that control end play on them.At a certain angle,they can "unmesh". Also,you might have gotten defective part,known to happen.

 

[SidecarFlip]

So, how does the auger secure to the gearbox output shaft? I assume like most, the gearbox output shaft has a flat on it and the auger has a set screw that engages the flat correct? Sounds like the set screw is loose to me. You might want to remove it auger and motor and check to see the setscrew is engaging the flat on the gearbox output shaft and if there is no flat, take a file and make one. Is the setscrew stripped in the auger threads? Is the auger hole stripped? If all is good and there is a flat, rotate the auger on the output shaft until the setscrew lines up with the flat and tighten it. Sounds to me like you tightened the auger setscrew on the output shaft but not in the flat which, would allow the auger to rotate even if yoy tightened the setscrew.

Far as too long a pellet, my stove will 'cut' them if they are too long. The action of the auger against the tube will shear long pellets. The gearbox has plenty enough torque to do that, no issue. Typical gearboxes have quadruple reduction so, if the motor is spinning at 3600 rpm. The output will turn at about 1 rpm with a 4 times increase in torque.

If you don't believe me, once you get the auger secured properly to the gearbox output shaft, stick a pencil in the feed hole for the pellets an d let the auger advance, It will shear the end of the pencil off and not niss a beat. Use a pencil because it's wood and will burn, not a ball point pen.

Why manufacturers today install a safety screen in the hopper. They don't want you to loose a finger fiddling with pellets near the feed hole for the auger.

You have a physical securement issue between two parts.

 

[SidecarFlip]

LOL,ya, the gears inside(there are many,also wear into the bushings that control end play on them.At a certain angle,they can "unmesh". Also,you might have gotten defective part,known to happen.

Highly unlikely. I've had many apart (reduction gearboxes) old ones and the gearsets were all meshed well. Not something to take apart unless you know the relationship between the gears and how they go back in. When I repuild one, it gets taken apart and then a bath in my heated ultrasonic cleaner in Chem Tool which removes all the old coagulated grease. Then I apply new synthetic high temp grease to the gears and reassemble but before I do I add grease to the housing.

The only real wear point in the gearbox is the input gear milled into the end of the armature shaft and the first reduction gear set. After that the gears and axles are turning so slowly that even though they pot into the aluminum housing, there is no wear. The drive motor will expire long before the gearbox will, armature bearings will give out. Why the input shaft on gearboxes run in a 660CA oil impregnated bronze bushing. The is no wear and the grease negates any over the years anyway (so long as the cheap grease inside isn't hard as a brick that is. That is why I recommend greasing them yearly, Grease fitting on the case at the highest point or a small hole drilled in the case and the use of a chainsaw sprocket nose grease gun.

 

[Former Farmer]

Far as too long a pellet, my stove will 'cut' them if they are too long. The action of the auger against the tube will shear long pellets. The gearbox has plenty enough torque to do that, no issue. Typical gearboxes have quadruple reduction so, if the motor is spinning at 3600 rpm. The output will turn at about 1 rpm with a 4 times increase in torque.

I believe the SantaFe is the same as my Castile in that the auger is really a "Feed Spring Assembly" per the owners manual. It is a hollow center spring screw. Not like a traditional auger with a center shaft with flighting welded to it. It will work the longer pellets through but may take several rotations. That is why I get "surges" in the flame sometimes. I can hear the auger working on the pellets at times and see the flame height vary shortly after.

At least that is my theory and I'm sticking with it.

 

[SidecarFlip]

My auger is a shaft with the flighting welded to it., but securement to the output shaft on the gearbox should be similar. All these stove builders buy their drive motors and gearboxes from outside suppliers. They don't 'make them'. All the do is add sourced parts to a weldment and put their name on it. That applies to all of them.

 

[Ssyko]

Santa fe, castile, cb1200 uses This auger assembly

 

[SidecarFlip]

No matter what make it is, they all do the same thing with sourced assemblies. They are all underfire gasification, solid wood burners but instead of chunk wood they burn a processed pellet. That picture in my signature is a Hurst scotchback underfire biomass boiler and the principles of operation is exactly the same but much larger. Screw auger feeds the fuel bed and the draft comes from under it, creating thermal oxidation of the fuel, creating heat which heats the water to steam. The hurst is, of course much larger but the operating principle is exactly the same. The auger on that one is 6" in diameter and 4 feet long and it's driven by a 5 horse 3 phase motor through a quadruple reduction gearbox. (Falk) in that case. Ash (both fly and and semi sold is removed the same way, it drops through the grates into the ash pan area and some flunkie (me) shoveled it out. Ran that one before retirement and yes I hold a high pressure operators license too. Anything over 45 psi is considered high pressure here. That is a 250 horsepower unit running around 100-130 psi, superheated (dry steam).

 

[SidecarFlip]

Santa fe, castile, cb1200 uses This auger assembly

View attachment 268557

Interesting, how does it secure to the output shaft on the gearbox? Set screw I have to presume.

 

[Ssyko]

Yes inside the mount box. It is open on 2 sides. If possible i would like to see a pic of how the OP’s auger set in one piece. There isn’t anyway i have ever changed one that bound up. I’m still thinking this is an electrical issue

 

[Mt Bob]

You need to make sure the set screw in the auger is tightened down on the flat part of the motor shaft
The set screw in the collar is for an adjustment.

 

[biglar]

I appreciate the thoughts, but some of you guys didn't read my last post where I clearly stated that the set screw was not only solidly tight, but was on the flat where it's supposed to be. Pellets are longer than some, but none more than an inch and they break easily between my fingers.

OK, I found another problem, but it doesn't make too much sense, either.

Since the old motor seems to be good, I'd prefer not to have a 10 year old component in the emergency box, so I pulled the new motor off and re-installed the old one. Before trusting the control module and safeties, I put 120vac directly to the motor and it took off as it should and started to move pellets up the chute.

Then it stopped and motor was making a grumbling noise - not quite chattering. I looked at it and was baffled. It's a solid connection, dammit, and it's GOT to run. It wasn't, but suddenly there was a loud "pop" from down in the pellet hopper and it started running again, so I thought, "aha.....there's something caught down in there and it's hanging up." Then it stopped again, so I cleaned all the pellets out of the auger chute, leaving a few at the bottom of the auger.

Nothing, so I pulled up on the auger and it suddenly started turning again . OK, there were some pellets in the bottom of the chute, so I let it run and could see that the end of the screw was riding up on the pellets and not really scooping them, but the hopper was almost empty, too. I let it run till the tip of the auger was pointing down on its' way to the bottom of the chute, then shut it down and pulled the whole assembly out again. Very carefully, across a radius, I bent the end of it down "slightly" and re-installed it. This time when the tip of the auger came down to the pellets, it dug a bit deeper and "seemed" like it wasn't working as hard. I let it run till the pellets started dropping into firebox, showing me the chute was full.

Fine, seemed better, so buttoned it up connected everything as it should be and plugged it in. Turned t'stat up and walked away. It lit, burned with a low flame for a bit, then the 200º thermocouple kicked in and away it went. Haha....sob....10 minutes later it quit again....and there it sits. I dunno.

 

[biglar]

I appreciate the thoughts, but some of you guys didn't read my last post where I clearly stated that the set screw was not only solidly tight, but was on the flat where it's supposed to be. Pellets are longer than some, but none more than an inch and they break easily between my fingers.

OK, I found another problem, but it doesn't make too much sense, either.

Since the old motor seems to be good, I'd prefer not to have a 10 year old component in the emergency box, so I pulled the new motor off and re-installed the old one. Before trusting the control module and safeties, I put 120vac directly to the motor and it took off as it should and started to move pellets up the chute.

Then it stopped and motor was making a grumbling noise - not quite chattering. I looked at it and was baffled. It's a solid connection, dammit, and it's GOT to run. It wasn't, but suddenly there was a loud "pop" from down in the pellet hopper and it started running again, so I thought, "aha.....there's something caught down in there and it's hanging up." Then it stopped again, so I cleaned all the pellets out of the auger chute, leaving a few at the bottom of the auger.

Nothing, so I pulled up on the auger and it suddenly started turning again . OK, there were some pellets in the bottom of the chute, so I let it run and could see that the end of the screw was riding up on the pellets and not really scooping them, but the hopper was almost empty, too. I let it run till the tip of the auger was pointing down on its' way to the bottom of the chute, then shut it down and pulled the whole assembly out again. Very carefully, across a radius, I bent the end of it down "slightly" and re-installed it. This time when the tip of the auger came down to the pellets, it dug a bit deeper and "seemed" like it wasn't working as hard. I let it run till the pellets started dropping into firebox, showing me the chute was full.

Fine, seemed better, so buttoned it up connected everything as it should be and plugged it in. Turned t'stat up and walked away. It lit, burned with a low flame for a bit, then the 200º thermocouple kicked in and away it went. Haha....sob....10 minutes later it quit again....and there it sits. I dunno.