Selection question and comment regarding purchasing

[Jeff From NJ]

Been lurking here for too long now and have officially armed myself with just enough information to get myself in trouble. I am looking to do an EPA certified fireplace to add some warmth and allow the wife to see the flames dance so a screen would be an excellent add on to make her happy once in a while. So, after seeing everyone's comments and selection choices, I figured it's my time now.

I have a two floor home (2500 Sq ft, NO basement) in North West NJ and I'm buying a fireplace, I'm not looking to go off grid, just want to add a fireplace for looks and figured if I'm going to do it, I might as well set up an EPA compliant one that actually is heat positive. I also believe in simple is better, so would prefer to install properly and not use blowers or electricity to operate. I am not certain how much wood I will be able to scavenge myself, but I can purchase a cord of unseasoned wood, mixed species, for $140 dropped in my driveway.

My house consists of a fairly open first floor on a slab where a one floor extension with 10 foot ceilings at the highest point (8 ft where the fireplace will be located) connects to the dining room and kitchen (8 foot ceilings), then a front hallway with a playroom that sits off the hallway (8 ft ceilings). Steps in the front hallway lead upstairs to the bedrooms.

The house is about 15 years old and well constructed, so insulation and air retention should be good.

From what I've read, I plan on putting a ceiling fan in the family room where the fireplace will be placed to move the air around and possibly another smaller fan at the top of the second floor stairs where the bedrooms are to move the air properly upstairs if nature does not do it for me (I'll wait on installing the second fan to see how mother nature works first).

I've narrowed down my selection to the Regency EX90 (not enamored with the style, but the installer is a dealer), Pacific Energy FP30 (hear good things on this board, but not quite my style, a bit plain), RDF Opel 2 (my personal favorite, like the double doors), Fireplace Xtrodinair 40 elite (like the style, looks well built) and the Valcourt FP12 (Not bad, but a bit too modern, but installer is a dealer).

That being said, since my chosen installer can get me SBI products (Regency, Valcourt, etc.) I would probably do best financially buying one of these brands, all things considered.

So, is there any serious error in my thinking, or would any of my choices be good, assuming the installation is done correctly; I don't want too buy too big a unit, nor too small a unit. Also, am I crazy to be concerned with catalytic units? I kinda would like to get the heat, without having to replace a catalytic unit every six years; maintenance is one thing, parts replacement is another.

Thanks

 

[mol1jb]

Well I definitely think you are on the right track. These EPA fireplaces work well and in you situation of a 2 story house, you could use the ducting options that many of them come with to get heat easily to the second floor. Based on your initial post I am assuming you only want to burn for supplemental heat? Or were you thinking of burning more as primary heat in the colder months? As far as size goes, if you are only heating for supplemental you don't have to worry as much about too small of a unit (although in your house size I would think 2.5cuft firebox or larger would work well).

As for not using the blowers, all of these units rely heavily on blowers to get good results. If not using electricity and heating well is your goal, perhaps looking in the realm of wood stoves may suit that better.

If you want less stove maintenance and part replacement, I would stay away from catalytic. But I think that is more of burn style preference. Many people like them very much and have great results with them.

 

[Jeff From NJ]

First, my plan for the heater would be supplementary using the fireplace on weekends mostly. However, if it turned out the system was capable of truly heating the house to a level that is wife approved, I imagine we would begin relying on it more.

I think the only blowers I would initially be interested in are the built in ones that bring in the air from the room on the lower vent/louver, heat it and then spit out the warm air in a built in vent/louver above the fireplace (from what I read, ducting in cold air from the outside to support the fireplace is for a VERY small group of users and not for most people).

As for the ducting to second floor rooms, RDF in Canada suggested that with proper installation, a fan in the fireplace room to circulate air and the rising of heat to the second floor naturally through air flow, possibly with another fan at the top of the stairs, we could/should/may be able to heat the house with no ducting necessary. Many posts here suggest ducting with fans that are often loud and as a mechanical device, require electricity and are prone to breakdowns. I prefer to try and be minimalist and allow science to work for me, rather than try and fight it and force heat to go where it does not want.

It seems trying to move heat to other rooms via ducts is VERY hit or miss, many times it appears to be a miss. So, my plan would be to install the fireplace and a fan in the room, see how that works and go from there. If I need ducts to other rooms, I could try that before finishing off the space and sealing in the fireplace permanently.

There's no rush to implement the "extras" and I hope taking it a step at a time will allow me to maximize the value while minimizing waste. If I had complete faith in the local installers and truly believed they knew with absolute certainty I needed something, I might be more apt to go forward all at once. However, with no knock to the pros here, I do not get any comfort from the local guys and truly feel like they have little experience in installing a perfectly balanced fireplace. My gut tells me these guys talk a big talk, but have minimal experience creating harmony with nature.

 

[mol1jb]

I think you plan is a good one. With moving heat upstairs, there is also the option of the gravity ducting, which uses the natural habit of heat rising and just sends a duct straight up to the next level. No fan would be involved in this method. But many have had success moving hot air with fans. The best advice I have gotten in my limited time on this site is put the wood burner in the area you want to heat and don't expect miracles in other areas of the house. You seem to be on the right track and I think you will be fine going forward.

 

[mol1jb]

Also with the plan of supplemental and perhaps more I would err on the side of larger, 3.0+ cu ft firebox.You can always build a smaller fire in a larger box, but the other way around is not so easy.

 

[Jeff From NJ]

Appreciate your 2 cents. With the gravity ducting, RDF told me the room I would be ducting into (the closest wall to the fireplace) would have a tendency to get really hot, and that room's door would need to remain open or at a minimum, an opening over the door would need to be created to allow the heat to roam and not get stuck in the room. That's a non starter and so a longer duct run would be required which then creates new issues.

I think for now, it makes sense to figure out which unit to purchase and where to buy it - I'm getting the feeling there is zero competition and therefore zero discounting on the better units.

 

[mol1jb]

Well you could always look online if those units are sold online. You may find better prices that way. It also depends if your installer would be willing to install a unit you didn't buy from him. Good luck

 

[Jeff From NJ]

That's the plan. Just need to figure out which one

 

[begreen]

You are looking at some good units. SBI also makes decent products. In addition to Valcourt look into the Flame fireplaces.

 

[mminor]

Hi Jeff,

I've been researching EPA zero clearance fireplaces for quite some time. The one thing I don't like about the SBI line of ZC fireplaces is that they do not use real fire bricks. Instead they have 'refractory panels' which cosmetically try to look like bricks, but I'm not sure how well they retain and radiate heat. You can see the SBI FP's weigh considerably less than other fireplaces, which is also a concern to me.

Let us know what you decide.

Matt

 

[begreen]

?? I don't see any SBI fireplaces in that list, but yes they may be a bit lighter than some and heavier than others. They weigh a bit less than the RSF Opels. Refractory panels are used in some very high end stoves in Europe. They are very good at insulating the firebox and keeping the fire hotter which is their primary purpose.

 

[Jeff From NJ]

Thanks for your list Matt.

SBI (REGENCY) makes - Drolet - Flame - Century Heating - Osburn - PSG - Enerzone - Valcourt.. I was looking at the Valcourt FP12 in my list, so that kinda puts that a bit to the side based on the firebrick issue.

I was leaning towards the Opel 2, but the firebrick issue with Valcourt and RSF make me question that a bit. Also, I hate thinking I will have to replace the cat five years down the line...

 

[iron]

i'll add my experience with our recent fireplace install:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...t-n-glo-northstar-fireplace-with-pics.149631/

easily heats the main floor (1400SF). suspect if our basement was a second story instead, it would also easily be heated (another 700SF).

it takes a few hours for the firebox & stone to heat up to the point where we crack a window open at the far end of the house to get heat to flow into the entire space. can easily get overnight burns, and this is using wood that isn't seasoned yet. looking forward to next year with tons of seasoned wood!

1979 house, standard R-11 insulation in 2x4 walls. not airtight.

 

[Jeff From NJ]

Perhaps adding a column to your list Matt listing retail price would help people in their decisions. Here is some info I picked up if you want to add it ...

Heat and Glo Northstar – $4600 – $300 coupon, optional screen

RSF Focus 320 - $3,500

RSF Opel 3 - $2329

Regency EX90 - $3300 - $300 rebate

Pacific Energy FP30 – $3500

Superior WRT4820 - $2879

Valcourt FP12 – $2850

Also, the Opels are EPA certified because they can only be sold in the US with a Cat and it meets the requirements. Apparently, in Canada you can get it without the Cat, and its except from EPA because of the burn rate but its still been certified by an independent lab to meet EPA standards with a rate of 2.8 grams/hour.

 

[jetsam]

Given your house size and the amount of work you seem willing to put into this, you might want to consider a stove insert instead of a fireplace.

Then again, I can never tell which of two things "looks better", so I am probably not a good source of advice.

 

[brad wilton]

If you wait a bit longer the way our dollar is falling you might be able to get a good deal.

 

[begreen]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/flame-monaco-xtd-zc-fireplace-questions.106154/
http://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-93375.html

 

[Jeff From NJ]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/flame-monaco-xtd-zc-fireplace-questions.106154/
http://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-93375.html

Does this unit represent something different then the other units I should look at? It seems the pricing is about the same and to be honest, I don't care for the design style much.

 

[Jeff From NJ]

If you wait a bit longer the way our dollar is falling you might be able to get a good deal.

I wish this was true, but unfortunately, US prices on these items are most likely locked and we US citizens will not get any benefit from the continuing slide of the Loonie until the items reprice. In the near future, I would say Canadian manufacturers that hedged pricing will be the beneficiary.

I think the play is to drive to Canada, take a nice weekend vacation, and drive back to the US with a Canadian unit paid for in US dollars. I'm certain it will make for an interesting conversation at the border.

 

[begreen]

Does this unit represent something different then the other units I should look at? It seems the pricing is about the same and to be honest, I don't care for the design style much.

Nevermind. It is just another slightly less expensive option by SBI.