Slightly used Portage and Main

[Pat32rf]

OK, so the install is coming along nicely. The boiler is hot, the house is warm and i have repaired my poor solder joints on the copper pipe sections. All that I have left to do is finish the piping to the sidearm heater that I am building for the DHW then i will do something about water treatment.
The staff at Portage and Main in Manitoba have been very helpful and answered all the questions that I have come up with so far, BUT the nearest P&M dealer is over an hour away, while Central Boiler is a mile down the road. In fact I bought my PEX and main heat exchanger from them......
What I need to know, is what is the difference, if any, between one make of water treatment and another? My tank is steel with a bit of copper pipe and regular oxygen barrier PEX. Can/should I just run over and get treatment from Central Boiler, or drive for an hour to the P&M dealer?

 

[leon]

As much as I hate forest eaters I will give you a hand.

Take two ounces of Dawn Dish Soap and add it to your boiler water.

This does two things for you:

1. The Dawn Dish Soap brings the PH of the water to near neutral
which is what you want to begin with.

AND

2. It breaks up the air bubbles in your boiler water as the
Dawn Dish Soap is a surfactant which makes the
water wetter aiding in removing air bubbles.

 

[maple1]

Do you have some reference reading material for this Dawn Dish Soap boiler treatment idea? I didn't realize it was a corrosion preventer.

 

[Fred61]

I wouldn't use a foaming surfactant in a heating system. I have considered adding a non-foaming surfactant to my unpressurized storage in order to improve heat transfer to the copper coil.

 

[Pat32rf]

But what about some sort of de-oxygenator to prevent rust?
We had lived in that house for just over ten years and heated it with a wood stove in the living room, plus a fan which blew the warm air to the far end (bedroom) of the house. This worked for us as long as it stayed above minus 25C, then the electric furnace kicked in. .
Then we moved next door to a bigger house that had a geothermal system and fireplace insert, renting out the small house.
The tenants wanted more heat in the bedroom....kept the living room about 25C.
No way could we afford the cost of a gassifier, heck, we couldn't even afford the $12,000 to have a new Central Boiler Classic installed. We did get a chance to buy a 5 year old Portage and Main for $4000 delivered.
Being a die hard DIY type we decided to grab it, connect to the little house (1600 sq ft) now, and then run lines to our house next summer.
So far the tenant has been keeping the whole house about 28C and the basement slightly less. He had one boil over and sticks some wood in once a day. He claims to be burning about half of what he burnt in the airtight.....
I worried about the smoke at first but I can see the top of the stack from our house and most of what I see is steam, hard to even tell when the fan on it starts.
Granted it's been warm outside this year (about 0C) so maybe after Christmas things will change....

 

[leon]

Do you have some reference reading material for this Dawn Dish Soap boiler treatment idea? I didn't realize it was a corrosion preventer.

Its an old plumbers trick to eliminate air bubbles. Dan Holohan talks about Dawn Dish Soap in every one of the plumbing books he has written and it has worked for him and many other plumbers.

 

[leon]

I wouldn't use a foaming surfactant in a heating system. I have considered adding a non-foaming surfactant to my unpressurized storage in order to improve heat transfer to the copper coil.

Using an ounce of Dawn to eliminate the air bubbles in that large volume of water is worth it and an old plumber trick BECAUSE it breaks the surface tension of the water and makes it WETTER and the added PH increase will always be a help anyway.

Besides that, unless you have a curtain of CO2 to cover the water in the unpressurised boiler your going to rust anyway.

 

[leon]

AS I have mentioned previously these things do not have enough water in them
anyway nor lots of firebrick and having a greater supply volume of water aids in
creating more hot water with less energy no matter the type of forest eater.

The other PROVEN thing is that unless a boiler bypass line is used you waste heat even before
the horse is out of the barn and the boiler no matter the type has to work harder than it needs to.

 

[Fred61]

Using an ounce of Dawn to eliminate the air bubbles in that large volume of water is worth it and an old plumber trick BECAUSE it breaks the surface tension of the water and makes it WETTER and the added PH increase will always be a help anyway.

Besides that, unless you have a curtain of CO2 to cover the water in the unpressurised boiler your going to rust anyway.

No rust in my unpressurized storage. Stainless tank with copper coils heated with flat plate from the pressurized boiler. You don't need to tell me what a surfactant is. I had plenty of experience with them in the '60s.

Go ahead! Knock yourself out. Use all the Dawn you want but you'll be lonely in that camp.

 

[leon]

No rust in my unpressurized storage. Stainless tank with copper coils heated with flat plate from the pressurized boiler. You don't need to tell me what a surfactant is. I had plenty of experience with them in the '60s.

Go ahead! Knock yourself out. Use all the Dawn you want but you'll be lonely in that camp.

=================================================================================================


I wont be lonely believe me, lots of plumber use Dawn Dish Soap to break up
air bubbles causing air locks and pump cavitation and in the process the water
PH is brought up to near neutral and there are no air bubbles to chase and bleed out.

 

[Karl_northwind]

since you're out of warranty, I would just use the central boiler stuff. If you are/were concerned about warranty, use the P&M stuff.
don't put a bypass line in if you can keep the water temps above 140F on the return line.
I have all of dan holohans books, and don't know anything about the dawn detergent, but it certainly isn't basic enough to reduce the Ph in any significant way. as you have an unpressurized system with one loop or so, the air elimination will take care of itself.

karl

 

[leon]

since you're out of warranty, I would just use the central boiler stuff. If you are/were concerned about warranty, use the P&M stuff.
don't put a bypass line in if you can keep the water temps above 140F on the return line.
I have all of Dan Holohans books, and don't know anything about the dawn detergent, but it certainly isn't basic enough to reduce the Ph in any significant way. as you have an unpressurized system with one loop or so, the air elimination will take care of itself.

karl

=====================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================



From "Classic Hydronics" Page 122 second paragraph

Quote:

DAWN

MArk Etherton, who is one of the sharpest heating contractors ever to pick up a wrench,
told me about a trick he's used to get rid of air bubbles, Here's Mark:

This was taught to me by an old-timer, many years ago, long before we had the understanding that we have today, but it still works.

On my own home, (one-pipe, diverter-tee system) I had problems with an entrained air bubble working its way around the loop.

I tried everything, including power purging, tipping, trapping radiators, etc., but to no avail.
I finally broke down andput in a micro-bubble reabsorber. The rogue bubble still kept bouncing around the system. The air separator just could nto catch it.

Oh, and I am only moving 2 GPM through a 3/4 inch circuit,so it wasn't an excess velocity issue.

"I finally remembered the soap trick, and injected an ounce of Dawn Dish Soap into the circulating main. The results were immediate. Within minutes, the system was virtually silent, and remains so to this day. The soap acts as a surfactant ,breaking up the surface tension, and allows the bubble to be broken up into smaller pieces, which are easier to capture and expel.

I, and many others have used this trick successfully on troublesome systems. A little soap is all you need, so don't overdue it. It also has the benefit of raising the PH of the system, which is always a good thing, except if your using an aluminum boiler."

Mark told me that he carries a small silver king hand pump and a bucket in his truck.
He drains a gallon of water from the boiler into the bucket and then squirts in an ounce of Dawn. He mixes it up and pumps it back in the boiler. In a pinch he'll drain the pressure off the boiler,pull the relief valve, and pour the mixture through that opening.

Just another one of those things to keep in your bag of tricks.



Unquote:

 

[Karl_northwind]

My Mistake. he has some new books out. Amusingly enough, Dan Holohan is the one who personally sent me to Hearth.com when I started working on wood boilers.
the soap trick is neat, but I will stand by my statement that it shouldn't be necessary in an open system, and will not affect the PH of his system if it's treated with OWB water treatment chemicals. The PH of the treated water should be north of 8, closer to 10 with the treatment. the soap won't matter on that front. The OP doesn't have air problems, and the soap won't help the PH, so It's unnecessary.

 

[Fred61]

There are several non foaming surfactants available to the masses such as "Liquid Ice" that is marketed to the motorcycle crowd and I have noticed surfactant in smaller packaging at Advance Auto Parts for auto cooling systems.
Surfactant is the official buzzword for "surface active agent".

 

[mustash29]

What I would do is contact P&M and find out what chemistry specs they recommend for their boilers.

If it is an open, unpressurized system typical to most OWB's it will most likely use a sodium nitrite / sodium nitrate based pH booster and corrosion inhibitor. There are easy to use test kits available (similar to a pool or spa test kit) so you can keep an eye on your system. It will require a few checks after initial startup, and should be checked several times annually.

A used boiler system may have crud in it from the previous user, poor water quality or poor chemistry upkeep. If there are any concerns of this it should be flushed, possibly treated with a cleaner or de-scaler, re-flushed, refilled and treated with something proper for the system.

The (broken link removed) website has a decent amount of detailed info about this stuff. IMO their products look legit. I have no idea if their products are any good, but what they talk about makes a lot of sense. I'm not a chemist by any means, but have experience with reactor and steam plant chemistry for the last 25 years.

 

[maple1]

On the topic question - I think I would just go to the Central dealer for what you need. A boiler is a boiler, I can't see there being any material differences in materials (ha) between CB & P&M that would make one treatment not good for the other. Or, just go thru the above link. Or at least check out the cost differences - there might be a chance I suppose that the local dealer might have big mark up on what he sells.

 

[Karl_northwind]

What I would do is contact P&M and find out what chemistry specs they recommend for their boilers.

If it is an open, unpressurized system typical to most OWB's it will most likely use a sodium nitrite / sodium nitrate based pH booster and corrosion inhibitor. There are easy to use test kits available (similar to a pool or spa test kit) so you can keep an eye on your system. It will require a few checks after initial startup, and should be checked several times annually.

A used boiler system may have crud in it from the previous user, poor water quality or poor chemistry upkeep. If there are any concerns of this it should be flushed, possibly treated with a cleaner or de-scaler, re-flushed, refilled and treated with something proper for the system.

The (broken link removed) website has a decent amount of detailed info about this stuff. IMO their products look legit. I have no idea if their products are any good, but what they talk about makes a lot of sense. I'm not a chemist by any means, but have experience with reactor and steam plant chemistry for the last 25 years.

They make the water treatment program for at least one of the boiler companies that is highly regarded here. they are the first place to go, if the OEM option is for some reason unavailable.