Smoke Problem - Ideas?

[agdavis]

Hi all,

New guy here. We recently bought a house (built in 1956) with a relatively large dual-sided fireplace and I'm having a really bad problem with smoke. Its possible one of the prior owners changed it from a single-sided to dual-sided fire place. Photos of the fireplace are below. Burning seasoned wood.

We had a fireplace company come out today and they said that in order to fix the smoke problem that they would need to rebuild the entire firebox because our flu is relatively small compared to the size of the firebox/opening; not because there was a crack, defect, etc., but because the firebox opening was too big. They estimated about $10,000 to rebuild the firebox.

I can't help but think that this cannot be the only solution and there must be something more cost effective. Some photos are below. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could tackle this problem myself? I'm hesitant to do anything myself that would require laying brick and mortar. Would a large L-shaped smoke guard on the open side of the fireplace do the trick?

Also, I made sure that I had a window cracked and that no exhaust fans were running in the house.

Thank you all in advance.

 

[begreen]

This is not an uncommon problem. One option would be to put an insert in there with a stainless liner. That should cure the smoke problem unless this is in a negative pressure zone too. It would turn the fireplace into a good heater, but you would lose the double sides.

 

[agdavis]

Thanks for your reply. I would like to avoid an insert for aesthetic reasons.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Fireplaces need to have the flue size a specific % of the fireplace opening.

Without redesigning, or at least closing off a side, I don't think you're going to be happy with the results.

 

[agdavis]

Fireplaces need to have the flue size a specific % of the fireplace opening.

Without redesigning, or at least closing off a side, I don't think you're going to be happy with the results.

Wouldn't a sufficiently large smoke guard solve the problem?

 

[begreen]

Wouldn't a sufficiently large smoke guard solve the problem?

If that includes closing off a side, maybe. It is the relation of the fireplace opening size to the flue area that matters.

 

[agdavis]

If that includes closing off a side, maybe. It is the relation of the fireplace opening size to the flue area that matters.

One of the sides has glass doors. Would keeping those closed be the same thing as closing off a side?

 

[begreen]

It would help, but I'm not sure if that would be enough with one whole side still open.

 

[bholler]

Wouldn't a sufficiently large smoke guard solve the problem?

The original deep is right there is to much firebox volume for your liner. A smoke shield may do it but it is going to have to be very large and I don't know how you would make it aesthetically pleasing. That being said 10k sounds high

 

[EbS-P]

How often are you wanting to burn the fireplace? A set of custom glass doors on the L side is an idea. I used alcohol burgers in my fireplace for a few years as I was sensitive to the smoke. Three 5k btu burners warmed up the living room. Gas logs are another idea. A hearth mounted wood stove would be another. Place it on the L side would be a nice look. I am all for keeping the original look. A smaller stove would stove give you the pass through line of sight. 10,000$ to fix a fireplace is a lot that still won’t heat very well is a lot.

 

[ispinwool]

Thanks for your reply. I would like to avoid an insert for aesthetic reasons.

I agree...as much as old fireplaces aren't really all that efficient, this is a beautiful and unique treasure!

Would you be able to find out if changes were made to the rooftop part of the chimney? Maybe
someone didn't plan to use the fireplace and when the chimney needed fixing, they shortened it?

As for the $10,000 rebuild (of that beautiful old brick! Perish the thought! )...think of it this way, in 1956 the builder built
a fireplace for use. Not just pretty. I doubt the firebox is the problem... Maybe those added glass doors
interfere with draft (as you mentioned, that side does look like a much newer addition)... I'm willing to bet someone in the house's
past messed something up.
What happens when you leave those glass doors shut when you burn?
Do I see a pipe within the grate?

One other resource you may want to look into is a finding an 'old timey' stone mason. We have a local guy that
is big on historically accurate masonry and has rebuilt/refurbished/troubleshooted a bunch of houses in the area.
If you have a historical society, you could ask them for a recommendation. If your home is one of the older ones of the
area, they may also have interior pictures of it 'back in the day' so you can compare and see what's changed. Just a thought.

Good luck!

 

[peakbagger]

Unfortunately many modern fireplaces were designed for the aesthetics not functionality. You may see slightly better operation on colder nights as the draft will be higher. On commercial/industrial systems they might put a draft inducing fan or and induced draft fan on the stack to mechanically increase the draft but not practical for homeowner use. You need to change the physics, smoke goes along with the air flow and you need a minimum face velocity at the openings to ensure that smoke goes up the stack. Flow is equal to velocity multiplied by the area. Your choice is increase the flow up the stack by making it flow more gas or reduce the area which means doors or inserts. Note stack dynamics are not as simple as put in a bigger flue. There is an optimum size but in many cases the standard blocks and tiles used are sized for economy rather than functionality.

By the way there are some very good masons out there that have learned over the years by trial and error what works and if you look up Rumford fireplaces you can see that the principles have been around for long time. On the other hand there are a lot of other folks looking to make a buck and sometimes they will have a good story but its designed to extract money out of the desperate. Make sure you dont get hooked up with them.

Many of the prior posts are right on, seal open area on the openings to increase the remaining face velocity to the point that the smoke goes up the stack.

 

[moresnow]

What is the pipe with valve on the right hand side of pic 1122? Hoping it's not a old live gas line for gas logs? Something to consider in my opinion before all else.

 

[maple1]

I can't see the situation improving any with that one side open huge like that all the time.

If the desire was really strong to try to keep 2 sides, I might try adding doors to the open side, along with trying the smoke shelf idea. If that doesn't work - well, I guess you'd be back to square 1.

Any sources there for a second opinion by someone who does this work?

 

[Ludlow]

Bricking up that open end might help and never opening those glass doors. Could use a nice stone for looks on outside, firebrick inside. Still isnt going to work all that great. Cheaper experiment before drastic measures are paid for.

Crude illustration:

 

[ManitobaSky]

What is the pipe with valve on the right hand side of pic 1122? Hoping it's not a old live gas line for gas logs? Something to consider in my opinion before all else.

I was thinking the same thing, you can also see the pipe running from the right side into the fireplace and under the grate in pic 1123.

 

[agdavis]

I’m liking the glass doors idea. Two questions though:

1. I recall reading somewhere that it is bad to burn wood in a fireplace with glass doors closed; if that’s true, how would I utilize the glass doors?

2. What type of tradesman would typically craft such an item, and does anyone have any sense of what the cost would be?

 

[EbS-P]

My glass doors had air operable vents in the bottom so there was always combustion air that you could control.

 

[begreen]

I’m liking the glass doors idea. Two questions though:

1. I recall reading somewhere that it is bad to burn wood in a fireplace with glass doors closed; if that’s true, how would I utilize the glass doors?

2. What type of tradesman would typically craft such an item, and does anyone have any sense of what the cost would be?

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[bholler]

I agree...as much as old fireplaces aren't really all that efficient, this is a beautiful and unique treasure!

Would you be able to find out if changes were made to the rooftop part of the chimney? Maybe
someone didn't plan to use the fireplace and when the chimney needed fixing, they shortened it?

As for the $10,000 rebuild (of that beautiful old brick! Perish the thought! )...think of it this way, in 1956 the builder built
a fireplace for use. Not just pretty. I doubt the firebox is the problem... Maybe those added glass doors
interfere with draft (as you mentioned, that side does look like a much newer addition)... I'm willing to bet someone in the house's
past messed something up.
What happens when you leave those glass doors shut when you burn?
Do I see a pipe within the grate?

One other resource you may want to look into is a finding an 'old timey' stone mason. We have a local guy that
is big on historically accurate masonry and has rebuilt/refurbished/troubleshooted a bunch of houses in the area.
If you have a historical society, you could ask them for a recommendation. If your home is one of the older ones of the
area, they may also have interior pictures of it 'back in the day' so you can compare and see what's changed. Just a thought.

Good luck!

In the 50s through the 70s lots of double-sided fireplaces were built and very few of them work at all. Those that do have at least 24x24 clay tiles in them. Some even bigger. Even many regular fireplaces built at that time were horribly designed and never worked.

 

[bholler]

What is the pipe with valve on the right hand side of pic 1122? Hoping it's not a old live gas line for gas logs? Something to consider in my opinion before all else.

Gas logs need to draft properly as well

 

[bholler]

By the way the gas line has a log lighter valve in it so I would guess that is what it is or was for

 

[PaulOinMA]

… Those that do have at least 24x24 clay tiles in them. Some even bigger.

Wow. Makes the house in the Plimouth Plantation thread seem efficient.

 

[agdavis]

An update: We had another fireplace contractor come out and due to the prior owner botching the fireplace by knocking a wall of the firebox out to make it double-sided (so now its double-sided, with an L on one side), the geometry and physics were destroyed and would need significant work to get it going (even a custom glass door maker said the doors wouldn't help much and we would be wasting our money).

Is there any reason why I wouldn't be able to put a medium-ish chiminea inside, with the chimney portion of the chiminea going up our chimney (so the chminea's chimney would extend a couple of feet into our chimney)? The thinking is that the proper drafting of the smoke upward would be achieved due to the side of the chiminea, and the smoke would be vented into our house chimney and up and out.

Thanks all.

 

[maple1]

I would not recommend that, at all.