Soybean Car...an awesome story.

[MainePellethead]

Anyone see this yet? What an awesome story of five "almost high school dropouts"....I think this is the right room to put it in....you can move if you need to Craig....check it out...

(broken link removed)

 

[Redox]

They probably been watchin' too much Discovery Channel...

 

[MainePellethead]

They probably been watchin' too much Discovery Channel...

The best part is it took them a year to do what has taken many for the car makers to do...

 

[Telco]

Makes you wonder how much oil company stock is owned by the automakers, and vice versa. Makes perfect sense to constantly make low mileage cars if you are making money on the fuel too. It isn't that the automakers CAN'T do it, it's that they WON'T do it. Look at how long it took for GM to announce a breakthrough that would allow them to meet the new tougher mileage standards after Congress passed them. About a month after, they announced a new system that will allow hybrids to increase their efficiency by (broken link removed to http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080304/ap_on_bie/gm_hybrids_2) over a non-hybrid, which will push many of their cars over the edge to meet the new standards by 2010. A diesel hybrid option would be all they had to do to actually beat the new requirements.

 

[Jags]

Great story, I really wish they would have gotten into more specifics (engine used, changes made, etc.). On a side note, its great to see some kids that were swept to the side lines get a chance to "prove" themselves. Again, great story.

 

[Corey]

It's a neat story. From other articles I have seen, it is basically a kit car, it has a VW TDI engine driving the rear wheels and and electric motor powered by ultracapacitors driving the front wheels.

Not to knock the accomplishment, but that TDI is a pretty danged efficient engine to begin with. You can find countless stories of it pushing Golf's and Jetta's around at 45+mpg. And those are full bodied, 4+ seat cars with all the modern safety and comfort features. You'd think it could do way more than 50mpg in a stripped down 2 seat kit car. Of course the electric motor / ultracapacitor set-up is a great boost to the 0-60 times, but no indication of how reliable it would be for ~100,000 miles.


So, yes, it's neat that these kids could take part in this, but I hardly think it implies some great conspiracy by the oil companies or ignorance of all the automakers on the planet because these kids have made something that no auto maker has put into production. It's one thing to make a one-off prototype that can show some impressive numbers after much tweaking and tuning. It's quite a different thing to put together a full production vehicle which lugs around all the safety and emissions equipment demanded by the government, has at least some 'comfort' items (air conditioning?) and will last for 100,000+ miles with no major repairs as demanded by the public.

 

[Jags]

and will last for 100,000+ miles with no major repairs as demanded by the public.

I don't see why not, capacitors and electric motors have been around darn near as long as what we would consider "modern" internal combustion engines. I'm not talking about all the smog, electronic stuff, but the actual mechanics of a 4 stroke, multi piston engine.

 

[MainePellethead]

Great story, I really wish they would have gotten into more specifics (engine used, changes made, etc.). On a side note, its great to see some kids that were swept to the side lines get a chance to "prove" themselves. Again, great story.

I agree jags! That hit me as well......love seeing what probably would have resulted in HS dropouts to accomplish what they did. I've always said.....sometimes school is just to "by the book" so to speak.....let kids express in what their best at....and in this case....cars!

 

[Corey]

and will last for 100,000+ miles with no major repairs as demanded by the public.

I don't see why not, capacitors and electric motors have been around darn near as long as what we would consider "modern" internal combustion engines. I'm not talking about all the smog, electronic stuff, but the actual mechanics of a 4 stroke, multi piston engine.

I guess I don't see the relation - batteries were around for 80+ years before Otto and Diesel started their tinkering, but the hybrid battery pack in the wife's Honda Insight died at 88,000 miles. To be truly innovative, the car's components should be on the cutting edge of technology - either in materials, manufacture, or application. In that respect, I doubt the kids can cobble something together that every major auto manufacturer has somehow overlooked.

 

[Jags]

and will last for 100,000+ miles with no major repairs as demanded by the public.

I don't see why not, capacitors and electric motors have been around darn near as long as what we would consider "modern" internal combustion engines. I'm not talking about all the smog, electronic stuff, but the actual mechanics of a 4 stroke, multi piston engine.

I guess I don't see the relation - batteries were around for 80+ years before Otto and Diesel started their tinkering, but the hybrid battery pack in the wife's Honda Insight died at 88,000 miles. To be truly innovative, the car's components should be on the cutting edge of technology - either in materials, manufacture, or application. In that respect, I doubt the kids can cobble something together that every major auto manufacturer has somehow overlooked.

My point was not that "this" machine will do it, but that it is technology that has potential. Honda wouldn't take up the task if they didn't see a future in it, but as with most things, version 1.0 (the cutting edge) is hardly perfected and usually moves to version 2.0 quickly. The first cars didn't see 100,000 miles either, but in todays market that is hardly a milestone. I think you will see the same apply to the hybrid market. These kids put a little tweak into play, and who knows, it might actually pan out in the long run. New ideas are often spawned by the "little guy" not the big MFGs.

 

[webbie]

As with much of the "alternative energy" stuff, the idea of cars fueled with veggies has been around a LONG time, in fact since the very start of car making!

My buddy (neighbor of extendaflue shop) is a young guy selling millions of dollars worth of veggie fuel conversions - Greasecar - http://www.greasecar.com

But don't forget that Henry Ford not only saw the future:
"Henry Ford shared a similar vision with Rudolph Diesel. He believed plant-based fuel to be the basis of the transportation industry."

But he also actually built car bodies from soybeans! Later in life, he farmed experimental plots in Mich. which were designed to further his vision:
(broken link removed to http://www.thehenryford.org/research/services/populartopics/SoybeanCar/default.asp)

Actually, it is on my list of places to visit - never been to Detroit!

The point is that we are acting like stuff a century old is "new". It is not. Plant based fuels have their own problems, not the least is evident today in the run-up of food prices because of ethanol production.

The key, IMHO, is conservation of every energy resource - at least until the day when solar and fusion are perfected (a LONG way in the future).

It all comes down to the equation of "energy in vs. energy out".....and, of course, pollution out! I still have a book on my shelf which was the first one that showed me the relationship between calories in and calories out. This applies to everything, from fish farming to beef productions.

As a for instance, the production of beef requires 15 pounds of feed protein in order to produce 1 pounds of meat protein. So this means you take 15 dollars to the bank and they give you 1 dollar in trade. It is 100% impossible for all humans on the earth to eat beef because we could never produce enough. This is simply the energy equation.

That is why I barf when I see the ads for giant GM SUVs which are fueled by corn, etc. It is the equiv of putting a big middle finger up to the rest of the world and saying "watch me ride to the shopping mall using YOUR food".

 

[Telco]

That is why I barf when I see the ads for giant GM SUVs which are fueled by corn, etc. It is the equiv of putting a big middle finger up to the rest of the world and saying "watch me ride to the shopping mall using YOUR food".

The reason they do that is because the feds calculate mileage for a flexfuel vehicle differently than they do a gasoline-only one. A full size SUV that gets 15/18 on gasoline is considered to get something like 30/38 if it's a flex fuel for CAFE requirements, so for 200 bucks in parts they are able to meet CAFE standards with no change to the core vehicle. I don't have a link to the article I read that states this so it's hearsay, but this is why the big SUVs are all going flexfuel even if they never see a drop of E85 in their lifetime.

Not only this, but here's a real pisser for you. BMW has been working on a 5 series diesel that gets better mileage than a Prius. It's not a hybrid, but does use regenerative braking to charge the electrical system. I'd rather see no regenerative braking, as a slightly larger alternator will weigh far less and be far less complex than a regen setup, and the weight/drag reduction should more than make up for the very slightly larger drag that a larger alternator would have. So, better mileage and you don't look like a greenie dweeb going down the road, and best of all you don't have a large battery pack to dispose of every 100K miles. Conspiracy theories aside, the technology is not only here, it's been here since last century at least. (broken link removed) states that a government report from 2002 shows that technology for better mileage already existed at that time, and has been surpassed since then.

"Boehlert, who will retire this year as chairman of the House Science Committee, has been tirelessly pounding home the main message of the influential 2002 report issued by the National Research Council, Effectiveness and Impact of Corporate Average Fuel Econ­omy Standards. “The technologies needed to meet the standards our bill sets already exist,” Boehlert says. “Indeed, some of them have already been surpassed since the report was issued in 2002.”

In other news, the next Corvette will be lighter and have a smaller engine, yet retain the same power to weight ratio of current models. More power, better handling, better fuel economy, what's not to like? Well, aside from it looks like a cross between a Lamborghini, Ferrari and Corvette, that is.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/23/corvette-c7-in-holding-pattern-due-to-cafe-regs/
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/22/corvette-to-shed-the-pounds-and-power-in-2012/

 

[boostnut]

It was a nice story, good to see a few "bad apples" do something very positive.

Corey, you're right, the TDI is a very efficient powerplant capable of living a long life. Mine (1998 jetta tdi) regularly breaks the 50 mpg mark with only an aftermaket computer chip and upgraded muffler. I've seen a range of 42 to 51 mpg over the course of the last 2+ years. Todays small car hybrids just make me laugh, what a joke! Day after day I see the Prius, camery, hondas.... and have to laugh because my tdi gets better mileage and will cost me much less to operate over the long haul. Yeah, my oil changes cost me an extra $10 or $20 bucks once a year but thats far from the cost of a battery every 75,000 - 100,000 miles. Is too bad that the general public in the USA is afraid of the "D" word (diesel). In my eyes, GM gave diesels a bad name with their junk product in the 70's and 80's (and yes, I also own GM products). Anyone considering a hybrid should do themselves a favor later this summer, hit the VW stealorships and drive a new tdi before you buy.

 

[Gooserider]

But he also actually built car bodies from soybeans! Later in life, he farmed experimental plots in Mich. which were designed to further his vision:
(broken link removed to http://www.thehenryford.org/research/services/populartopics/SoybeanCar/default.asp)

Not just soybeans either - According to some of my sources, Ford had also built some proto-type car body panels from HEMP - aka Marijuana (So Cheech & Chong weren't all that original...) although you probably wouldn't have gotten much from toking on a fender... The process was reportedly sort of like making fiberglass, only using hemp fibers instead, along with a binder refined from the other plant material.

It does say something IMHO that we aren't seeing any serious discussion of using hemp as a potential alternative energy source - according to it's advocates it requires far less energy to grow and harvest than corn, doesn't need expensive artificial fertilizers, and will grow on less prime farm land, but can be processed to make just about anything that we currently get from an oil refinery, and at a not much greater cost....

Not sure I buy it that far, but it certainly seems reasonable that it would be cheaper than corn.

Gooserider

 

[Jags]

Goose - I think you will find a large chunk of people out there that get all twitchy even hearing the word "hemp". They are the same people running around yelling "truth be damned, we can't have fields of this stuff growing all over". I think we may really be overlooking a potential crop simply out of ignorance, that has MANY possibilities (beyond most peoples conceptions of the stuff).

 

[Redox]

Goose - I think you will find a large chunk of people out there that get all twitchy even hearing the word "hemp". They are the same people running around yelling "truth be damned, we can't have fields of this stuff growing all over". I think we may really be overlooking a potential crop simply out of ignorance, that has MANY possibilities (beyond most peoples conceptions of the stuff).

Agreed; we can't even get government to admit that needle exchange programs are a good idea! Nobody wants to look like they are promoting drug use. Hearst's grip on industry continues on to this day.

Anyone read "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" by Jack Herer?

(broken link removed to http://www.jackherer.com/chapters.html)

Admittedly biased, but well researched...

Chris

 

[Gooserider]

Goose - I think you will find a large chunk of people out there that get all twitchy even hearing the word "hemp". They are the same people running around yelling "truth be damned, we can't have fields of this stuff growing all over". I think we may really be overlooking a potential crop simply out of ignorance, that has MANY possibilities (beyond most peoples conceptions of the stuff).

Agreed; we can't even get government to admit that needle exchange programs are a good idea! Nobody wants to look like they are promoting drug use. Hearst's grip on industry continues on to this day.

Anyone read "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" by Jack Herer?

(broken link removed to http://www.jackherer.com/chapters.html)

Admittedly biased, but well researched...

Chris

I have an older copy, but I agree, it is a primo source of information - IIRC that is one of the places I saw the discussion of making car parts out of hemp.

Of course not all hemp applications are good necessarily - remember that Bush I survived his WWII airplane bailout because of his HEMP parachute equipment, and look at all the misery that has caused us (including W....)

Gooserider

 

[Redox]

Goose - I think you will find a large chunk of people out there that get all twitchy even hearing the word "hemp". They are the same people running around yelling "truth be damned, we can't have fields of this stuff growing all over". I think we may really be overlooking a potential crop simply out of ignorance, that has MANY possibilities (beyond most peoples conceptions of the stuff).

Agreed; we can't even get government to admit that needle exchange programs are a good idea! Nobody wants to look like they are promoting drug use. Hearst's grip on industry continues on to this day.

Anyone read "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" by Jack Herer?

(broken link removed to http://www.jackherer.com/chapters.html)

Admittedly biased, but well researched...

Chris

I have an older copy, but I agree, it is a primo source of information - IIRC that is one of the places I saw the discussion of making car parts out of hemp.

Of course not all hemp applications are good necessarily - remember that Bush I survived his WWII airplane bailout because of his HEMP parachute equipment, and look at all the misery that has caused us (including W....)

Gooserider

<Rimshot> All righty, then...

Wasn't he the only Bush to ever bail out of a bad situation?

This thread is beginning to head to the Ash can, now...

Speaking of ashes, Ford was the original source of the wood scraps for Kingsford charcoal. He was a pioneer in the art of recycling. Too bad they haven't been keeping up with the times.

HEMP= Nature's Kevlar

I'll shut up, now...


Chris