Steel or Cast Iron

[8271JD]

I am getting ready to purchase a wood stove after a 20 year break in using one. 20Years ago I had a Vermont Castings DEFIANT. We used it for 6 years and it worked great .. we never had any problem with it, etc. In shopping this year for a stove, I am being told to stay clear of cast iron, it is old technology, there are problems with the seams after 2 or 3 years. I am being pushed toward a steel stove, as they are a one piece molded unit.
I was also told that the new fireplace inserts will heat my house just as well as a free standing stove (1500 sf ranch home).
I was ready to purchase a Jotul F500 "Oslo".
I would appreciate any and all comments, suggestions, and clarity. Thank you.

 

[SteveT]

Either steel or cast iron is fine; I would view someone pushing too hard in either direction as having an agenda.

Check out: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/comparing_stove_materials.

The next to last paragraph gives a great summary:

In most cases, the material a stove is made from is secondary to other aspects, such as price, style, size and installation. Having the proper relationship and advice from the dealer or manufacturer is also important

 

[webbie]

You were also told wrong about inserts. In general, the freestanding stove will heat better. Nothing wrong with inserts, but they do lose some heat back there in the fireplace.

 

[Gooserider]

I would tend very much to agree w/ Engine. There is nothing "wrong" with cast iron as such. It is one of the three major materials in use today, and fits the needs of many users quite well... Whether it fits YOUR needs is a separate issue, which depends on the kind of burning that you want to do, the type of heat you want, the look you are after (stoves count as "furniture" as well as heating appliances) and so forth....

Heat wise cast iron is a good choice, it falls in the middle ground between the slow responding but even heating properties of soapstone, and the fast responding but "spikey" heat output of plate steel. It usually functions primarily as a radiant heater, steel is often designed more as a convection heater.

Cast iron IS built in peices, which are bolted together with seams that are sealed with gaskets and / or furnace cement, and is something that will need to be rebuilt periodically, but the rebuild frequency is more on the order of every 10-15 years, and can be much longer, not 2-3 years - I wouldn't consider that argument to be at all legitimate, and would have severe doubts about a dealer making it having any interest in you beyond your ability to line his pocket...

Inserts vs. free standing stoves is an ongoing arguement, much depends on the nature of your individual setup (where in the house is the fireplace, is it an inside or outside chimney, how well can you distrbute the heat, etc, Ranches tend to be a bit harder to heat than other styles of home, mostly because the layout makes it harder to get the heat to the far ends of the house. However they can work well IF you can get a good air circulation loop going they will work OK. Often a convection style heater can work better on a ranch, and inserts tend to be convection units. Where is the fireplace? If it's centrally located, then an insert might work very well for you. If it's on one end, with an outside firebox / chimney, then I'd be more inclined to go with a free standing stove (Ideally with a new metal chimney in a central location...)

Jotul's are high quality units, although they seem to get a slightly higher percentage of "stove to small" complaints here than most - I think they tend to be a bit optimistic on their heat output and "area heated" recomendations - possibly because European homes tend to be smaller and less heated than in the US, I don't know... However if I'm remembering the Jotul lineup correctly, the Oslo is a reasonable choice for 1500 sf...

Bottom line - nothing wrong with steel or cast as materials, choice should be mostly based on which you like better, with heavy WAF input. (WAF = Wife Acceptance Factor) either will heat the house to a similar level. You will need to look very hard at how you'll get the heat moved around, especially if the stove is at one end of the house, and a convection style unit might work better for that.

Gooserider

 

[8271JD]

Thank you all for the quick feedback.
The FP is at one end of the house with the living area (kit, LR etc). it is centered on the side of the house, outside FP wall is in the garage. The FP is directly opposite the hallway to the bedrooms and bath. The total inside length from FP opening to the end of the hall is 36 feet.
The ranch is all open concept. We bought a 1950's ranch and took inside walls down so the "living" end of the house is all one great room (where FP is located).
I'm leaning toward the freestanding as I used it in the past but got nervous when the dealer (who sells Lennox "Country") started going on about the seam/gasket problems, etc. As I remember we did fix our old Defiant at one point, but I don't remember it being every 2/3 years. Thanks for the confirmation.

Does anyone have a preference (in terms of quality) of Vermont Castings (ENCORE) vs. the Jotul OSLO? I ask as I have noticed that several blogs have complained lately about the quality of Jotul especially the 602 (back wall problems). The reason I was leaning toward the Jotul as it has side load capability (my preferene). Encore is top loading.

I really appreciate the help

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Ditto on the freestanding vs. insert: freestanding throws more heat, and there is less need for a blower. That said- my insert does the job great, less intrusive, nice fire viewing. Consider a hearth stove, which will stick into the room less, but be more efficient than an insert.

 

[begreen]

VC's fate right now is uncertain, so it's hard to recommend them until things settle down. The Encore is the more complex stove. The Jotul Oslo is simpler and easier to use and still a very good heater, perhaps their best. I prefer Jotul's enameling process; it's more chip resistant. There is also another option which is where we ended up after owning Jotuls for many years. That is a steel/cast iron hybrid. It has a steel stove core, but is clad with a cast iron outer shell. In many ways it provides the best of both worlds.

 

[8271JD]

What brand steel/cast iron hybrid do you own? I would be interested in looking into it.

 

[begreen]

Pacific Energy Alderlea T6.

(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/product_alderleaT6.php)

 

[Gooserider]

Thank you all for the quick feedback.

No problem, glad to help out...

The FP is at one end of the house with the living area (kit, LR etc). it is centered on the side of the house, outside FP wall is in the garage. The FP is directly opposite the hallway to the bedrooms and bath. The total inside length from FP opening to the end of the hall is 36 feet.

Was afraid of that... It's a fairly standard layout for a ranch, and unfortunately tends to be one of the worst for heating w/ a stove.

The ranch is all open concept. We bought a 1950's ranch and took inside walls down so the "living" end of the house is all one great room (where FP is located).
I'm leaning toward the freestanding as I used it in the past but got nervous when the dealer (who sells Lennox "Country") started going on about the seam/gasket problems, etc. As I remember we did fix our old Defiant at one point, but I don't remember it being every 2/3 years. Thanks for the confirmation.

You shouldn't have any problem with heating your open living area, the challenge will be getting the heat down the hall to the BR's and bath.
It does sound like the dealer is handing you a line - from the "do hard sell by knocking the competion, rather than promoting your own product" school... I would tend towards a free standing in your case; if I did go with an insert I'd want to be sure to put lots of insulation behind it to keep as much heat from escaping out the chimney as possible.

Does anyone have a preference (in terms of quality) of Vermont Castings (ENCORE) vs. the Jotul OSLO? I ask as I have noticed that several blogs have complained lately about the quality of Jotul especially the 602 (back wall problems). The reason I was leaning toward the Jotul as it has side load capability (my preferene). Encore is top loading.

Never had a Jotul, but mostly have heard good things about them. We have a VC Cat Encore, which has done well for us, but as mentioned VC is currently having some serious financial issues. We really LOVE the top load as opposed to the sideload smoke dragon it replaced - it is so nice to just lift the lid and (gently) drop the wood in from the top instead of trying to lever it in the side... The VC ash handling system is also very nice, especially if you have an extra ash-pan like we do so that you can just swap them out.

One caution on the VC's - there are two varieties of many of their stoves - the catalytic converter versions, and the Non-cat "Everburn" models that use a non-catalytic secondary combustion setup. MANY of our users here have reported having moderate to extreme problems with the Everburn style stoves not operating properly / cleanly / efficiently. It appears that the non-cat VC's are very "fussy" about their setups, if everything isn't perfect, they may give problems. The cat models appear to be much more reliable and less prone to problems.

I'm not at all fond of enameled stoves, largely because of the problem of trying to fix them if you chip the finish, I prefer the basic black paint job that can always just be touched up if needed - chit DOES happen, and I prefer an easy fix when it does...

I really appreciate the help[/quote]

Again, no prob, that's a good part of why we are here...

Gooserider

 

[sapratt]

I'm new to wood heating also but I have looked into both. I was asked if I'm looking for quick heat then steel is the answer. It heats up quickly heats the same as cast iron but when the fire dies so does the heat. Cast iron heats up slowly but when the fire dies down it will keep putting out good heat. Maybe one of these vetran wood burners can correct me if I'm wrong. I had a cast iron stove but took it back because I was given a steel stove.

 

[Gooserider]

I'm new to wood heating also but I have looked into both. I was asked if I'm looking for quick heat then steel is the answer. It heats up quickly heats the same as cast iron but when the fire dies so does the heat. Cast iron heats up slowly but when the fire dies down it will keep putting out good heat. Maybe one of these vetran wood burners can correct me if I'm wrong. I had a cast iron stove but took it back because I was given a steel stove.

In essence that's the idea... Essentially you have a combustion cycle as your fire starts, drives most of the gasses out of the wood and burns them, then goes into charcoal combustion mode, with a corresponding change in temperature - a steel stove will "track" that change very closely, and fairly quickly. Mostly because the cast iron is usually thicker, it will respond more slowly, not get quite as hot at the peak combustion temps, and take longer to cool down.

Soapstone will do this to an even greater extreme, to the point where we generally tell people that soapstone is only really going to work well for a 24/7 burner who has a fairly short "shoulder season" as it doesn't do well with short "take the chill off" fires. A soapstone stove will take a long time to warm up, but then will stay hot for a long time after the fire goes out. Steel heats fast, but also cools fast, and so works better for the "nights and weekend burner" or the vacation home where you want the stove to get hot as soon as you build a fire, if not sooner...

(Note - All three types of stove will put out the same TOTAL number of BTU's from a load of wood (all else being equal) the difference is the time spread of the output. Soapstone and to a lesser degree, cast iron, "flatten out" the heat vs. time curve, but it still has the same AREA under the curve.)

Gooserider

 

[fossil]

We have two freestanding steel stoves...one in the house, the other in my workshop. They're both set atop 12" masonry hearths, with masonry backwalls. The masonry absorbs a good deal of heat when the stoves are burning, and continues to radiate to the room(s) well after I've let the fire end its burning cycle and the stove is cooling. We can only burn softwoods out here...nice hardwoods simply aren't available...so, since we can't ever really achieve an effective "overnight burn", we like the fact that the steel stove comes to life quickly in the morning and goes right to work. Lots of variables involved in woodburning, that's part of what makes it interesting for me. Rick

 

[BrotherBart]

I will never be convinced on that "holding time" argument between cast and steel stoves. I own both. When that 455 pound 30-NC gets hot it is four to five hours before the thing gets down below a hundred degrees after the fire goes out. And from a cold start it ain't gettin real hot real fast lately. My 265 pound cast Jotul F3 is colder than a wedge in less than two hours.

I think equivalent mass has the same properties, steel or cast. No question on the soapstone. Those rocks are a BUNCH of mass.

 

[RedRanger]

Does it not make a difference if you can burn 24/7? I`m thinking back to last winter with our old insert and I slept on the couch in the rec-room and got up to feed it every 3-4 hours for about a 3 nite period. Result, the house seemed to be much warmer, even though the top 2 levels were only a degree or two celsius higher. And the insert is located on the first of four levels.

I hope I`m not in error on this, because that is why I bought the newer one(looking for that elusive overnite burn). It just seems that with wood heat if you can keep it going non-stop, the house never really gets that cold? Eventually the heat works it way up and if the fires keep on burning, then it doesn`t neccessarily dissipate. Not saying that it gets hot upstairs, but it at least seemed to stay comfy.

 

[fossil]

...I think equivalent mass has the same properties, steel or cast.

Between those two materials, yes the difference in heat capacity is negligible in our (woodburners') application. Total mass is the key. The cast iron stoves (as I understand them) generally have greater total mass...but, of course that all depends on comparing two stoves of the same rating, firebox size, whatever. I think of my stove installations as systems. The stoves are the heat source, all the surrounding masonry and even everything in the room is the heat sink. The more effectively I can distribute the heat while the stove's burning (blower kit, ceiling fans, etc.), so that everything around it warms up, the longer it's all (as a system) gonna re-radiate that heat after the stove's no longer burning. In my workshop, I can feel warmth in my cabinets and even from my table saw long after the stove's begun to cool way down. I remember when I was a kid, and on one of our camping trips to Yosemite, long after sunset, I laid back on a granite boulder and it was toasty warm. A soapstone stove is just a more compact system than either my workshop with it's little woodstove or a granite boulder with its sun. Rick

 

[Gooserider]

I pretty much agree on the relative mass thing, sorry if I didn't make that clear enough... A big massive stove will stay hot longer than a small one, no matter what it's made of, so you have to compare stoves that are otherwise fairly similar... There is some heat transmission difference, but it's relatively minor, more of the difference is that for a given firebox size, a soapstone stove usually weighs the most, and a steel stove the least, with cast iron in the middle, but probably closer to steel plate than soapstone.

Burn times are pretty much independent of stove material. Burn times are mostly a function of the size of the firebox, the type of wood being burned, and how it is split / dried... IF you are burning hardwoods, you need at least a 2-2.5 cuft box to get the elusive 8 hour burn with good heat production. If you are stuck with softwoods, probably more like 3+ cuft, less than that you can't get the needed BTU's into the box. Also if you want a long burn you need either big chunks or very tight packing so as to minimize the amount of wood that's being exposed to the air at any given moment. Try for chunks that are as big as you can stuff through the door... They will burn cooler, but longer.

Gooserider

 

[fossil]

I thought you made yourself perfectly clear, goose, and I agree completely with everything you've said here. I've never owned either a cast iron, cast/steel hybrid, or a soapstone stove...but I do understand physics and materials fairly well. I'm not taking exception by any means, you've a good deal more experience/expertise in this than I. Just adding my $.01 to the conversation. Rick

 

[RedRanger]

I pretty much agree on the relative mass thing, sorry if I didn't make that clear enough... A big massive stove will stay hot longer than a small one, no matter what it's made of, so you have to compare stoves that are otherwise fairly similar... There is some heat transmission difference, but it's relatively minor, more of the difference is that for a given firebox size, a soapstone stove usually weighs the most, and a steel stove the least, with cast iron in the middle, but probably closer to steel plate than soapstone.

Burn times are pretty much independent of stove material. Burn times are mostly a function of the size of the firebox, the type of wood being burned, and how it is split / dried... IF you are burning hardwoods, you need at least a 2-2.5 cuft box to get the elusive 8 hour burn with good heat production. If you are stuck with softwoods, probably more like 3+ cuft, less than that you can't get the needed BTU's into the box. Also if you want a long burn you need either big chunks or very tight packing so as to minimize the amount of wood that's being exposed to the air at any given moment. Try for chunks that are as big as you can stuff through the door... They will burn cooler, but longer.

Gooserider

Thanks for the heads up Goose: so with my newer 2.5 cu.ft firebox. burning softwood, namely fir, and maple, and alder, Am I probably looking at the max 7 hour before the blower kicks off? Or put another way, if I load up and damper down by 11pm, guess I still have to get up by 6 am. to keep it going? Is this what you are thinking? No matter, still better than what I used to own., :coolhmm: ps. just couldn`t make that summit fit!!

 

[begreen]

Sonny, wife making you sleep in the basement again? :coolsmile:

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the heads up Goose: so with my newer 2.5 cu.ft firebox. burning softwood, namely fir, and maple, and alder, Am I probably looking at the max 7 hour before the blower kicks off? Or put another way, if I load up and damper down by 11pm, guess I still have to get up by 6 am. to keep it going? Is this what you are thinking? No matter, still better than what I used to own., :coolhmm: ps. just couldn`t make that summit fit!!

I could be wrong, but 2.5 is probably on the edge for softwoods - however maple isn't that bad depending on the variety... I get a lot of "swamp maple" which I believe is the same thing as "silver maple" which is the low end maple at around 21,700 Btu/cord - it's probably my #2 wood after the red oak (27,300 Btu/cord)... It isn't as good as the oak, but its not bad, I don't bother to sort it out to seperate piles, and haven't noticed a huge difference in burn times with my Encore cat. (gives me 8-10 hours if I stuff it depending on the thermostat setting)

You will have to see what it does for you as every setup is a little different, and it also depends on how you define burn time. I would guess that you might only get 6 or 7 hours on the blower, but you should keep enough coals for the relight a lot longer - I've gone as long as 18-20 hours on the Encore without needing a match for the relight, but I wasn't getting much heat during a lot of that time - I tend to agree with those who define burn time as how long from stuffing the stove on a good coal bed for a long burn, to temperature going below useful heat output (~3-400* F on the stove top)


Gooserider

 

[brider]

Hey, Gooserider, just noticed your signature, I'm a "gooserider", too, here in CT. '86 Cal II Auto, and a '74 LAPD Eldo. Going to any rallies here in NE this year?

Sounds like I have almost the same house as Firestarter (and same heating issues), I'll need to talk to him in a PM.

 

[Gooserider]

Hey, Gooserider, just noticed your signature, I'm a "gooserider", too, here in CT. '86 Cal II Auto, and a '74 LAPD Eldo. Going to any rallies here in NE this year?

Sounds like I have almost the same house as Firestarter (and same heating issues), I'll need to talk to him in a PM.

Two Geese, both Cal II standards, w/ sidecars and leading link front ends, one w/ car-tire wheels, unfortunately both are currently dead, and I'm actually getting around on the GF's old KZ454LTD... If I can get one of them running (both need major engine work) in time, (along w/ all my other major projects) I may go to the NEMGC rally this fall, probably not much else.

Gooserider (NEMGC, DHMC, AMA, MMA, MRF, etc...)