Storage tank plumbing advice

[sparke]

Here is my system and the diagram that came with the owners manual:



Assuming I don't want to re-pipe the main loop until summer. I am trying to figure out how to integrate the storage tank. This is involved but if anyone has the time to throw some ideas at me I would appreciate it. I was planning on using one spiral HX with reversing flow but I am open to other suggestions.

Also, I piped the wood boiler per owners manual. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the wood boiler and oil tied in feed to feed and return to return? I am wondering if they pipe it this way so the return water gets mixed with some supply on purpose? Keep in mind the vessel on the Greenfire only holds about 10 gallons of water.

Nofossil, I have studied your diagrams but you have a parallel system with zone valves. I cant find any diagrams that integrate the storage with a series set up...
I think I am ahead of the game to re-pipe main loop and storage at the same time. But I am interested in a temporary set up until summer...

 

[jebatty]

I have the hx type system with a simple, manual setup. All wood boiler heat goes to storage, and then I have a manual diverter valve (close valve to shut off storage and open valve to heat) to divert heat directly to zones if immediate, full heat is needed. Generally I keep the storage hot enough so that I'm not diverting, so actually I don't use the valves too much, except when storage temp gets low.

These two valves can be partially closed/open so some heat still goes directly to storage while balance of heat goes directly to zones.

 

[Nofossil]

Are they suggesting that the wood and oil should be in series, and that you should circulate hot water through the oil when you're heating with wood?

 

[sparke]

jbatty - I assume that means you have no direction flow to take advantage of stratification?

Nofossil - Yes that is what they suggest. There is no diagram for a parallel hook up or alternate hook up for that matter. At the very least I would think supply to supply would be more efficient because the supply(from wood) to the heat zones would not be mixed with the return water like they are now...

 

[Nofossil]

I'm no fan of series hookups, though I think I'm open-minded enough to be able to listen to reasons why they're desirable. Just haven't heard any reasons yet.

Seems to me that there are two logical approaches:

1) Parallel hookup with common supply and return - see my site (in my signature below) for an example.

2) Primary / secondary loops, where each boiler has it's own circ and both are connected to a common primary loop. There's a sticky thread at the top of the boiler room that explores this.

I think option 1 makes sense for simpler systems. Option 2 allows flow rates to be tailored to each heat load and heat source, but requires more circulators.

 

[solarguy]

If you're existing fossil fuel boiler is oil fired, maintains temperature to provide domestic hot water & if she's got some miles on her you may be better off hooking it up in series.

Many times when you by-pass a older fossil fuel boiler with parallel pipe connections or a primary secondary setup, your existing fossil fuel boiler begins to leak.

The old gal doesn't like being cold..

 

[sparke]

My oil boiler is a new cold start so my D.W. is not reliant on the oil boiler being hot. I don't know why the manufacturer suggest a series hook up.
The root of my question is how to pipe the storage tank with my set up. Nofossil's and many other diagrams wont work because of the differences in parallel systems with zone valves versus series with circ. pumps. I have searched the net for 2 weeks and I can't find anything that matches my system. Guess I am going to have to pay some one for design or do some trial and error

 

[jebatty]

See if any of these diagrams help out. They were posted in another thread. Just page forward and take a look.

http://www.thermavolt.com/page19.html

 

[sparke]

Thanks for the link. That is the same manual I have... It does not show a large thermal storage tank, wood boiler, and a OB. Seton/Greenwood say there is no need for water storage but we know better

 

[antknee2]

Sparky I have the same initial setup . I came up with a trick three heat exchanger setup designedly to suck massive btu's from the Seton . I would like to share this info but I cant effectively explain without a diagram . If anybody could recommend a easy to use cad program I appreciate the input . I found a system that can go from no storage to full storage in four increments , guaranteed for life , closed system no water quality issues , super insulated from the factory , super flexible space wise [ the main reason I ended up with this scenario and no concern about ebdm rubber liner braking down at temperates over 180 degrees F . Best of all the fourth heat exchanger is now piped into a evacuated tube solar system which has the power on a sunny day to heat the house and add a charge to the tanks . Anthony

 

[Eric Johnson]

A quick and dirty way would be to sketch it out on paper and then shoot a picture. I use page layout and drawing programs (InDesign and Illustrator) to make simple diagrams, but it's cumbersome compared to a dedicated CAD setup. The hardest part is converting the native format into something (jpeg) that can be posted here.

 

[antknee2]

A quick and dirty way would be to sketch it out on paper and then shoot a picture. I use page layout and drawing programs (InDesign and Illustrator) to make simple diagrams, but it's cumbersome compared to a dedicated CAD setup. The hardest part is converting the native format into something (jpeg) that can be posted here.

Thanks Eric . Drawing and writing ad a major weak spot for me , but I will give it a try . Thank God for spell check!!

 

[muleman51]

I would also like to see your storage system Anthony, I have an adobe that is working far from satisfactorily. In the last 48hrs it has burned 1tree 18'x18"x8" and another 16'x12" x8", both were hard dead elms very dry and very solid. The Adobe is definitely not working to its potential, just as bad if not worse than my old Aqua therm and it takes alot more babying. So Iknow I need storage this summer am am trying to get it figured out . Did you make your own coils, how ??? any details would be much appreciated. Jim

 

[sparke]

Please do Anthony. We don't mind messy scribbles. Go for it!!

 

[antknee2]

Please do Anthony. We don't mind messy scribbles. Go for it!!

Thanks for the encouragement . I will work on it today . Anthony

 

[antknee2]

Here is my mess . Their is allot more to the system a bunch of aquastats , air eliminators an relief valves . The main point I would like make is 30 plate heat exchanger in back of the boiler automatically prioritizes the the supply of the hottest water to my home first then heats the tanks . All this happens without any mixers or special controls . Hope this helps . Anthony

 

[sparke]

Thanks for taking the time to draw that up. I will post pics when I am done with the project...

 

[SteveJ]

Anthony,

Thanks for posting your system.

I like the house prioritization.

Questions
1. What do you do for DHW?
2. I count 5 circulators in the diagram - how many are always on? how many are aquastat controlled and from what source?
3. The return from the house goes to the and for the 007 and 010 mix the return with the other preheated water and then back to the house - of course through the HX. Are you doing the mixing using the 010 and the 007?
4. What circulators are used in addition to the 010 and the 007?
5. The flow to the middle tank is controlled by the shutoff valve - correct? Is this a manual setting depending on the collectors?
6. What is your typical wood usage - say for a 20F day and night?
7. Do you have a backup oil system in the house?

Very cool and thanks again for posting,
Steve

 

[antknee2]

Anthony,

Thanks for posting your system.

I like the house prioritization.

Questions
1. What do you do for DHW?
2. I count 5 circ in the diagram - how many are always on? how many are aquastat controlled and from what source?
3. The return from the house goes to the and for the 007 and 010 mix the return with the other preheated water and then back to the house - of course through the HX. Are you doing the mixing using the 010 and the 007?
4. What circ are used in addition to the 010 and the 007?
5. The flow to the middle tank is controlled by the shutoff valve - correct? Is this a manual setting depending on the collectors?
6. What is your typical wood usage - say for a 20F day and night?
7. Do you have a backup oil system in the house?

Very cool and thanks again for posting,

Steve

1. In side my home we have a oil fired boiler which is pre heated by the seton and the solar . The oil boiler a very low mass , Crown CTPR3 Scotch Marine type boiler . Our domestic hot water heated with a small 30 gallon super store indirect unit running off one of the many zones .
2. The solar circulator is controlled by the solar differential controller . With it's own UPS for power failure.
Circulator on top of the Seton is controlled by high limit aquastat , temperature over 160 circ on , also has dedicated UPS , for power failure.
The 007 & 0010 controlled by low limit aqua stat on the first tank , on the left side of the diagram. Set for 145 degrees f . Allows the seton to warm up before it sends hot water to the house and tanks on the right side of the diagram . Also prevents the oil boiler in home from back feeding the Seton .
The 007 in back of the seton is controlled by a timer that will kill the power to circ an draft damper actuator . can be set how long you think the fire will burn , then shut down completely a save all that heat in the 3000 pound boiler to be absorbed slowly by the tanks .
3. Yes , good observation .
4. Just a small Grunfos three speed in home .
5. It's a manual by pass , for experimental reasons . I used three 1'' ips ball valves .
6. Without solar about one very full wheelbarrow a night , full fire box . If below 20 degrees befor bed two big Oak all nighers, thats it no fire during the day . The solar on sunny days will add a nice charge to the tanks regardless of residual heat from previous night's burn , very hard for me to believe , today I came back from a small trip an found the pipe insulation all melted on the out put side of the collector in the boiler room . What happened ???
Hope this helps . Anthony