Stretching and Hanging On to the BTU's: Esoteric Insulation Questions

[becasunshine]

Ok, here are a couple of really picky questions. Sorry.

We have an old school brick and block house with NO wall insulation. We have mass- brick, then block, then lathe of some sort, then plaster- but no wall insulation.

We beefed up our attic insulation a couple of years ago and that helped a lot.

There is some insulation under the floors in the crawl space.

Last year we added those little UL approved insulation inserts behind all of the electrical outlet plates and switch plates on the exterior walls. We also added childproof safety plugs to the exterior outlets that aren't being used continuously, i.e. the open prong slots. We did this because, at another location where there is notoriously high wind in the winter, we noticed cold air *blowing* into the otherwise well-insulated, modern construction house through the electrical outlets. Not *around* the electrical outlets, particularly, but *through the prong slots.* We went ahead and added the insulation inserts behind the switch and outlet plates at that location while we were at it- couldn't hurt. It helped so much at that location that we did the same thing back in town with our brick and block house.

The effect was noticeable. We really could tell a difference- so much so that it made me feel kind of stupid for not doing it sooner. It makes sense- brick, block, no wall insulation = cold air leaks in through outlets.

NOW, here are the picky, silly, esoteric insulation questions:

1. We added the insulation inserts to the wall and switch plates, and the childproof safety plugs, to the electrical boxes on the EXTERIOR walls. In a brick/block/plaster house construction, would it do us any good to add the same items to the outlets and switches on the INTERIOR walls? The crawl space isn't sealed, and if there is no insulation in the exterior walls, I sort of doubt that there is insulation in the interior walls. Could we be getting little air leaks in through the interior electrical boxes? or is that just sort of impossible or unlikely from a construction sense? Pardon my ignorance, I really don't know.

2. In one of the bedrooms, the house has settled such that there is a bit of a gap in between the hardwood floor and the quarter round. In very, very cold weather, I swear I can feel a bit of a draft coming in through this gap. The hardwoods have been refinished a couple of times over the years (construction circa 1958-59.) We have a water-based finish on them now, so hopefully any future work will involve a simple buffing, not more sanding. Anyway, have any of you ever caulked around quarter round where it meets the floor? Is this, hrm, done? I've never seen anybody do that but then again, it wouldn't surprise me.

In the past we've talked about having the crawl space sealed, but since FEMA re-drew the flood plain maps, we are now in a flood plain, even though we cannot see water from this house. It's a long story. I'm not sure that FEMA would take kindly to us sealing the crawl space, however.

The pellet stove has an OAK, and even though we have replacement windows, I'm sure there are enough gaps in the house for fresh air to get in otherwise.

How tight is too tight in a house, anyway? Am I over-thinking the small stuff?

 

[MarkSJohnson]

I don' know much 'bout insulating....I'm a newbie at all this myself!

But....before coming here to check these boards, I was looking at this for the reasons you mentioned. Seems cheap if it finds leaks!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001LMTW2S/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

[saladdin]

I don' know much 'bout insulating....I'm a newbie at all this myself!

But....before coming here to check these boards, I was looking at this for the reasons you mentioned. Seems cheap if it finds leaks!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001LMTW2S/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Those things aren't worth much.

This is what you need.

http://www.amazon.com/Smoke-Pencil-...1&sr=1-1&keywords=smoke+pencil+draft+detector

 

[becasunshine]

Thank you, Mark Johnson and Saladdin!

I will admit that I am in the weeds now in terms of cost savings, but little bits add up. I was amazed at how adding Butt Ugly Thermal Curtain Panels *over* the cell shades, *over* the replacement windows, helped stop the convection cold that was leaking in the tiniest gap in between the window frame and the cell shades. I was amazed at how insulating the electrical outlets and switches on the exterior walls made a difference.

We have an old school Nu-Tone through the (brick and block) wall exhaust fan with the louvered damper and the wind guard over the stove in the kitchen. When we tore the kitchen and the laundry room out to the plaster, in some places beyond, and to the subfloor, and in one place beyond (we were looking at the dirt in the crawl space from inside the laundry room in January in 2' temps, yeah, my timing sucked) I fought tooth and nail to save that old school Nu-Tone fan. The alternative was to pull the fan, patch the brick/block, patch the plaster, install a microwave with an exhaust fan and vent and cut a new hole in the side of the house. I thought that was ridiculous, cutting a new hole in the house for a new vent for a microwave exhaust fan when we have a perfectly fine fan that will suck your butt out at 20 yards. THAT WAS TMI, WASN'T IT? SORRY.

So we kept the Nu-Tone fan, cleaned up the aluminum grill, bought some washable metal filters and a new fan/motor assembly in case the original ever dies on us, and called it good.

When we have strong winds out of the west we can lie in bed and hear the louvered damper on the Nu-Tone fan flapping in the breeze. We put a new spring clip on the louvers when we renovated the fan but a strong enough wind will, of course, lift the louvers. The fan will blow the louvers open (unless they have frozen shut- yes that has happened) so it makes sense that a strong wind will lift them as well.

While I love my vintage Nu-Tone fan and I'm glad we kept it- a regular range hood also gives me enough clearance on the range top for my big canner, a microhood may not have given as much clearance- I am now eyeing that Nu-Tone fan and trying to figure out how to add insulation without disrupting the use of the fan too much. I could cut out a piece of Reflectix and put it behind the grill, but that *is* our exhaust fan for the kitchen. (The new range hood has a recirculating fan but I create way too much mess in a kitchen to rely on a recirculating fan. I know better. Trust me.) Also, there is a center bolt that goes through the grill, through the metal filter, and into the center of the fan mount. It is really, really difficult to get that center bolt into the hole even with the metal filter in place- you can't see the hole for which you are aiming. I don't care if it's hovering at zero degrees- I don't want to try to put that bolt in place every time I reach for the switch to exhaust the kitchen. SO. I will continue to think on this equation.

I might end up with the fabricated Reflectix insert after all.

Yeah, I'm in the weeds.

 

[john193]

A while back I was reading an article about wall insulation and I recall the article making a case for insulating electrical outlets in interior walls. Granted you may not see a drastic result, the article noted that even interior walls can be leaky...and all walls eventually share their air space with your attic. (i can't seem to find it now...go figure)

My understanding is that a house has to breathe to a certain extent in order to prevent potential mold growth from condensation. I've also read that some people think this is more or less a wives tale at this point. In either case, I don't think by insulating walls and plugging up electrical outlets you are going to tip the scale to "too tight."

I don't see why you couldn't caulk around your molding. I don't think this is typically done (out of sight), there is nothing wrong with it. The key is matching the paint or painting it at some point so it looks more seamless.

 

[saladdin]

Thank you, Mark Johnson and Saladdin!

I will admit that I am in the weeds now in terms of cost savings, but little bits add up. I was amazed at how adding Butt Ugly Thermal Curtain Panels *over* the cell shades, *over* the replacement windows, helped stop the convection cold that was leaking in the tiniest gap in between the window frame and the cell shades. I was amazed at how insulating the electrical outlets and switches on the exterior walls made a difference.

We have an old school Nu-Tone through the (brick and block) wall exhaust fan with the louvered damper and the wind guard over the stove in the kitchen. When we tore the kitchen and the laundry room out to the plaster, in some places beyond, and to the subfloor, and in one place beyond (we were looking at the dirt in the crawl space from inside the laundry room in January in 2' temps, yeah, my timing sucked) I fought tooth and nail to save that old school Nu-Tone fan. The alternative was to pull the fan, patch the brick/block, patch the plaster, install a microwave with an exhaust fan and vent and cut a new hole in the side of the house. I thought that was ridiculous, cutting a new hole in the house for a new vent for a microwave exhaust fan when we have a perfectly fine fan that will suck your butt out at 20 yards. THAT WAS TMI, WASN'T IT? SORRY.

So we kept the Nu-Tone fan, cleaned up the aluminum grill, bought some washable metal filters and a new fan/motor assembly in case the original ever dies on us, and called it good.

When we have strong winds out of the west we can lie in bed and hear the louvered damper on the Nu-Tone fan flapping in the breeze. We put a new spring clip on the louvers when we renovated the fan but a strong enough wind will, of course, lift the louvers. The fan will blow the louvers open (unless they have frozen shut- yes that has happened) so it makes sense that a strong wind will lift them as well.

While I love my vintage Nu-Tone fan and I'm glad we kept it- a regular range hood also gives me enough clearance on the range top for my big canner, a microhood may not have given as much clearance- I am now eyeing that Nu-Tone fan and trying to figure out how to add insulation without disrupting the use of the fan too much. I could cut out a piece of Reflectix and put it behind the grill, but that *is* our exhaust fan for the kitchen. (The new range hood has a recirculating fan but I create way too much mess in a kitchen to rely on a recirculating fan. I know better. Trust me.) Also, there is a center bolt that goes through the grill, through the metal filter, and into the center of the fan mount. It is really, really difficult to get that center bolt into the hole even with the metal filter in place- you can't see the hole for which you are aiming. I don't care if it's hovering at zero degrees- I don't want to try to put that bolt in place every time I reach for the switch to exhaust the kitchen. SO. I will continue to think on this equation.

I might end up with the fabricated Reflectix insert after all.

Yeah, I'm in the weeds.

My house is brick with no exterior wall insulation. I thought of doing that spray in stuff but most everything I read said majority of heat is lost thru roof ( which makes sense) and that walls make up much much less of heat loss. Check your attic insulation and max it out. Go around your lights/ceiling fans and see if there is leakage into the attic. Try those shrink wrap plastic coverings for windows.

And do something about that fan, even if it's something rigged up temporarily.

 

[john193]

My house is brick with no exterior wall insulation. I thought of doing that spray in stuff but most everything I read said majority of heat is lost thru roof ( which makes sense) and that walls make up much much less of heat loss. Check your attic insulation and max it out. Go around your lights/ceiling fans and see if there is leakage into the attic. Try those shrink wrap plastic coverings for windows.

And do something about that fan, even if it's something rigged up temporarily.

very true, a majority of the heat loss happens through your attic.

This past summer I went around and caulked all my recessed lights (I already have the air tight cans that can be insulated), but when I installed a few I ended up cutting more ceiling than I needed. Another thing to think about is the attic access. Some people like to buy those pre made attic ladder insulation kits. I went to ace hardware and purchased a sheet of insulation and cut a box to size to insulate my attic access door. I then used the expanding foam to seal the corners of my box. Worked like a charm and really helped in providing a layer of insulation over the access door.

 

[becasunshine]

And do something about that fan, even if it's something rigged up temporarily.

My husband just had an absolutely GLORIOUS "I told you so!" moment. :D

And yeah, you are both right. BUT I LOVE THE NU-TONE FAN!

I'll probably put some Reflectix back there.

 

[becasunshine]

very true, a majority of the heat loss happens through your attic.

This past summer I went around and caulked all my recessed lights (I already have the air tight cans that can be insulated), but when I installed a few I ended up cutting more ceiling than I needed. Another thing to think about is the attic access. Some people like to buy those pre made attic ladder insulation kits. I went to ace hardware and purchased a sheet of insulation and cut a box to size to insulate my attic access door. I then used the expanding foam to seal the corners of my box. Worked like a charm and really helped in providing a layer of insulation over the access door.

My husband's engineer father makes those attic door boxes for each of his kids and grandkids as a "housewarming" gift. We think it's AWESOME.

We insulated the attic in late winter 2012? Which winter was it when the east coast/mid-Atlantic had back to back snow storms and daytime highs in the 20's for weeks? Yeah, we beefed up the attic insulation that year.

We'd needed a radiant barrier in the attic since we moved here- we have an unobstructed south-southwest exposure on the roof and the front of the house. Summer temps near or at 100+'F can turn this house into a little brick pizza oven. We already had a nice new powerful attic fan and a ridge vent in the roof. We'd put in a new, larger central a/c but we knew we still needed help.

When we decided to get serious about insulating the attic we had a radiant barrier installed. We thought about doing it ourselves- you can stand up in most of the attic- but a few of the places in which we really wanted that radiant barrier were very tight places and one look in that direction told us that hiring the pro's would probably save our marriage. Besides, the local company has a proprietary radiant barrier product that we preferred for its ability to breath over the radiant barrier products available at our local Big Box Home Improvement Store. So, we hired the pro's and now we have the radiant barrier.

As soon as the crew was finished- about midday on a cold, cloudy, blustery day with a cold front moving in, outdoor temperatures dropping as the day progressed- my husband started working on the insulation on the attic floor.

The original rock wool was still in place in between the joists on the attic floor. A previous owner had put R19 batting over the rock wool in between the joists. This had been done properly, so we left it in place. My husband rolled out R30 batting over all of the attic floor that we aren't using for storage (a reasonably small, floored strip right down the center of the attic) in a perpendicular direction to the joists. He left breathing room at the soffits (and the radiant barrier crew did as well.)

The difference was noticeable and immediate. We weren't using the furnace that day because everyone was in and out of the front door and in and out of the attic. We didn't want to run the furnace continuously just to dump heat outside. So unless I was needed I stayed out of the way and next to the pellet stove. The pellet stove was our only heat source in the house for most of the day.

Prior to re-insulating the attic, the pellet stove really didn't keep up. As soon as the insulation was installed, by the middle of that afternoon, the pellet stove was gaining on the house without the help of the furnace. For the first time since we had the pellet stove installed, it was not only keeping up, but it was making progress by itself. The attic insulation made a world of difference for us.

 

[bill3rail]

I am not familiar with the type of construction you detail, but the first thing we did after buying this house was to over insulate the attic, and seal off the hatch entering it with spray foam and layers of fiberglass insulation. Made an access door into the garage in case I need to get back in.
I am considering removing exterior wall sheet rock to see what the insulation is like, but not too thrilled about that much work.

Bill

 

[becasunshine]

I am not familiar with the type of construction you detail, but the first thing we did after buying this house was to over insulate the attic, and seal off the hatch entering it with spray foam and layers of fiberglass insulation. Made an access door into the garage in case I need to get back in.
I am considering removing exterior wall sheet rock to see what the insulation is like, but not too thrilled about that much work.

Bill

We've inquired about blown in wall insulation but from what we've been able to determine so far, that won't work with this construction. An energy consultant suggested a skim coat of insulating exterior, stuff? over the brick outside. We aren't totally against that idea but it would put our house out of character with the houses around it. Done well it could look nice, but we aren't going there quite yet.

 

[becasunshine]

P.S. Mr. Sunshine has agreed to install those little UL approved insulated inserts inside the interior outlets tomorrow. We'll get some more socket plugs- and we are sitting here dreaming up some fabricated insert that we can slip behind the exhaust fan grill perhaps without removing that bolt completely. Tomorrow's the day. Sunday is going to be cold and windy.

 

[saladdin]

We've inquired about blown in wall insulation but from what we've been able to determine so far, that won't work with this construction. An energy consultant suggested a skim coat of insulating exterior, stuff? over the brick outside. We aren't totally against that idea but it would put our house out of character with the houses around it. Done well it could look nice, but we aren't going there quite yet.

Do you remember the name of the skim coat? I've looked for something like that and can't find it.

 

[saladdin]

My husband's engineer father makes those attic door boxes for each of his kids and grandkids as a "housewarming" gift. We think it's AWESOME.

We insulated the attic in late winter 2012? Which winter was it when the east coast/mid-Atlantic had back to back snow storms and daytime highs in the 20's for weeks? Yeah, we beefed up the attic insulation that year.

We'd needed a radiant barrier in the attic since we moved here- we have an unobstructed south-southwest exposure on the roof and the front of the house. Summer temps near or at 100+'F can turn this house into a little brick pizza oven. We already had a nice new powerful attic fan and a ridge vent in the roof. We'd put in a new, larger central a/c but we knew we still needed help.

When we decided to get serious about insulating the attic we had a radiant barrier installed. We thought about doing it ourselves- you can stand up in most of the attic- but a few of the places in which we really wanted that radiant barrier were very tight places and one look in that direction told us that hiring the pro's would probably save our marriage. Besides, the local company has a proprietary radiant barrier product that we preferred for its ability to breath over the radiant barrier products available at our local Big Box Home Improvement Store. So, we hired the pro's and now we have the radiant barrier.

As soon as the crew was finished- about midday on a cold, cloudy, blustery day with a cold front moving in, outdoor temperatures dropping as the day progressed- my husband started working on the insulation on the attic floor.

The original rock wool was still in place in between the joists on the attic floor. A previous owner had put R19 batting over the rock wool in between the joists. This had been done properly, so we left it in place. My husband rolled out R30 batting over all of the attic floor that we aren't using for storage (a reasonably small, floored strip right down the center of the attic) in a perpendicular direction to the joists. He left breathing room at the soffits (and the radiant barrier crew did as well.)

The difference was noticeable and immediate. We weren't using the furnace that day because everyone was in and out of the front door and in and out of the attic. We didn't want to run the furnace continuously just to dump heat outside. So unless I was needed I stayed out of the way and next to the pellet stove. The pellet stove was our only heat source in the house for most of the day.

Prior to re-insulating the attic, the pellet stove really didn't keep up. As soon as the insulation was installed, by the middle of that afternoon, the pellet stove was gaining on the house without the help of the furnace. For the first time since we had the pellet stove installed, it was not only keeping up, but it was making progress by itself. The attic insulation made a world of difference for us.

Selfish I know but I kinda wished you had waited to insulate to see what effect the radiant barrier would do on its on. I've considered it but keep seeing comments from it works perfectly to it does nothing. Lots of arguments about how to set up an attic...attic fans can be horrible or great...radiant barriers work or worthless...attic temp matters to not so much. Lots of varying info.

 

[Madcodger]

OK, so this is sort of a "soapbox" topic for me, so here goes...

First, air infiltration: This is measured as the natural Air Changes per Hour (ACHn) and expressed as a % of the home's air that is exchanged (new air in, old air out) per hour at a given pressure. There is exactly one reasonable way to measure this: a blower door test by a qualified professional (and no, I am not one). The optimal and lowest acceptable rate is 35%. More than this and you are wasting energy, less and you are allowing harmful things to build up in your house's air supply (CO, VOCs, etc.). For almost any house not specifically designed or retrofitted to minimize air infiltration (which generally means a builder specifically trained in this field, not just "a good builder"), your house will be well above this 35% rate (and you will have no real idea without the blower door test, which should actually be done as part of an energy audit - more on that in a minute). Air leakage is the easiest way to lose energy from a house and it is also one of the easiest to remedy, making it the most cost effective thing you can normally do to make your house more comfortable and save money.

For almost all homes, if you add up the amount of air leaking in (and going back out) through small crevices, cracks, etc., it is equal to leaving a window, door, or more OPEN, 24/ 7, in your house. Those electric outlets and switches on outside walls? Go hold a smoke stick next to one and watch the air flowing in. Dryer vent area? Big culprit, often because there's no flap and even open area around the pipe. Windows? Normally they're not all that bad, but if they were installed before spray foam was invented they're almost certainly installed so that air is leaking in around them, entering in those tiny cracks around the trim, and you are then heating / cooling that air. And if you have a newer house, the odds of your builder properly following all the appropriate methods are done near nil, unless they were properly trained (the vast majority aren't). Beca asked about her inside walls... These can be a source of heat loss (although often less), primarily because the top plates of the walls are sitting in an attic and they have not been sealed using foam or proper caulk, such as acoustic sealant. This means you effectively have a tiny chimney running from every electric outlet, switch, door, etc., up through the stud bays, into your attic. "But my attic is insulated!, you say". Yes, and that's good. But neither fiberglass batts nor blown-in insulation does a good job of stopping the passage of air, so those tiny little chimneys keep pumping your expensive, conditioned air (e.g., pellet stove heat) right up to the attic. The insulation helps with another type of heat loss, but not that. The only solution is to properly air seal the attic BEFORE the insulation is placed, or to move the insulation out of the way and air seal, then put the insulation back (which we did ourselves, and it's not pleasant to do, but it really helped. So... are you on the right track to think about that air sealing? Yes! But you're sort of guessing about it without an energy audit.

There was discussion here of insulation and radiant barriers... You have to first understand that there are three ways heat (including heat from you pellet stove) gets transferred: Convection (flow of heat through air, for example, and the reason we all try to rig up fans or wish we had an open floor plan), Conduction (you place a pan on a stove and it then gets hot, because this is direct heat transfer) and radiation (not Three Mile Island, folks - but think about how you feel when you walk outside on a sunny day or sit in front of a sunny window - that's radiant heat transfer). For the vast number of people living in normal homes outside the SW US or some parts of the south, where the sun adds significantly to their AC bills, a radiant barrier does darn near nothing for you. Many are sold with some sort of air-filled cells as a backer (sort of like shipping wrap material) and that gives you some insulation. But a radiant barrier itself is a shield against radiant heat, and that's not how you are losing the heat from your house. You are losing it primarily from air exchange (convection - see above) and by having it it transferred out through the solid framing members (conduction, called thermal bridging in construction). Radiant barriers can have some usefulness in certain applications, but they have often been sold by people who either don't understand the science or who don't care. So, the best things you can do for saving energy are 1) control air exchanges, getting as close as possible to 0.35 air changes per hour, and 2) insulating after air sealing, but using insulation that controls for convective and conductive heat losses. Fiberglass batts and blown-in insulation (fiberglass or cellulose) both do a good job of inhibiting conductive loss through the ceiling but don't do much for stopping air flow. Appropriate foam sealant (which should only be applied by a trained professional when done with anything beyond hand-held cans) controls air flow and conduction, but it can be expensive. But don't go ordering a bunch of two-part spray foam and try to coat your own attic! House fires have resulted from improperly applied two-part foam sealant, and you are very likely to get a poor application. Air sealing the top plates of the attic and all those little holes where wires and pipes come up through the attic, THEN putting in insulation, is a great strategy. And if you have in-ceiling, "can" lights? Unless they were properly designed and installed (most weren't), they are stunningly bad places to lose heat. But you must cover and insulate them properly or you can burn your house down! Check to see if they are rated for contact with insulation, and better yet buy the appropriate boxes designed to cover ceiling lights and seal around them with fireproof foam sealant (the orange stuff). I like to use that for most spray foam (can type) applications these days on my own house, when sealing up wiring holes, etc. Acoustic sealant works great for the top plates.

And finally, the energy audit... This is NOT normally the energy audits offered to you for free at a home show! PAY someone to do it! It will cost you several hundred dollars, take at least half a day, and MUST involve a blower door test. What to look for? They MUST be either BPI certified, or RESNet certified, and both is great. If they're not certified by one or both, pass. If they say, "We use a heat camera" and no blower door test, take a pass on them. Infrared cameras can be somewhat useful, but you need a pretty big temperature differential (warm house, cold day) to really make them useful. A good, certified energy auditor with a blower running in the door, set to control the pressure precisely during the test (at 50 pascals as I recall, but that's from memory) can find much more than some guy with a fancy looking camera and limited training and no certification. As I recall our test cost us about $600, took the entire day, and resulted in a 32-page report, many photos, and a list of specific, detailed, prioritized improvements we could make to our home, including to-the-dollar amounts we would save for each improvement. Was it $600 well spent? Well, I was half-owner of a home improvement company at the time of our audit (admittedly more of an investor than worker at that point), but had remodeled three of my own homes extensively myself, and I grew up with a father in the trades (he had me build my own bedroom in the basement at 12 with his help, and I learned to sweat pipes before I was 10). The auditor found things I frankly never thought of, and the improvements he suggested saved us enough energy to pay for the test within about two years, conservatively.

So there, I'm off my soapbox now. Do as you wish. But this is an area where a little time spent learning can go a long, long way... And I have no financial interest in anything involved with any of this. We sold our company earlier this year, and I'm paying guys to work on my home now. In fact, I gotta go 'cause one is due here in about 15 minutes.

 

[SwineFlue]

Beca asked about her inside walls... These can be a source of heat loss (although often less), primarily because the top plates of the walls are sitting in an attic and they have not been sealed using foam or proper caulk, such as acoustic sealant. This means you effectively have a tiny chimney running from every electric outlet, switch, door, etc., up through the stud bays, into your attic

Would this be even worse when the room is above an unconditioned crawl space?

 

[becasunshine]

"Beca asked about her inside walls... These can be a source of heat loss (although often less), primarily because the top plates of the walls are sitting in an attic and they have not been sealed using foam or proper caulk, such as acoustic sealant. This means you effectively have a tiny chimney running from every electric outlet, switch, door, etc., up through the stud bays, into your attic."

^^BINGO! After we put the insulation inserts in the outlets/switches on the exterior perimeter, along with outlet plugs, the difference was so noticeable that I started researching the efficiency of doing the same thing on the inner walls. I found references to it in Some Guy's Blog, and I couldn't get there now if I tried. THAT GUY- every time I look at a wall fixture now I think "little chimney." With our first serious cold front moving in this weekend, I WANT DAMPERS ON ALL OF MY LITTLE CHIMNEYS! Heh. It's funny that you said "little chimneys," Madcodger, because that is the *exact* descriptor I'd read in the past and the *exact* descriptor running around in my brain. On the inside walls, it's such a little thing that I wondered if I was being a little OCD about it. Perhaps- but little things add up to a lot, as you say. This house was built when home heating fuel of all types was cheap. (As far as I know, this house was always on natural gas as a heating fuel, I see no evidence of a previous oil furnace here.) At any rate, I grew up during that era. While my family and my husband's family did the whole "winterization" thing as much as it was done then, the concept of keeping a house warm at that time typically had more to do with a big ol' oil furnace blasting out warmth. Relatives had those big floor registers in the hallway. I grew up in two houses that had oil fired boilers that sent hot water into baseboard radiators. That was some divine heat, I want to tell you- nothing like it at all except for the old school steam radiators that were still in the apartments that we rented just out of college. But I digress, and I'm certainly not advocating a return to a heating oil platform. I will simply acknowledge that the heat was divine- and then I will buy a big honkin' wood stove for our place at the river, sit beside it, gaze at the fire and bake my bones. (That's the plan, anyway.)

"The only solution is to properly air seal the attic BEFORE the insulation is placed."

^^ Not in the budget nor the cards right now, ergo we're going to go the cheap/lazy way and insulate the outlets/switches and call it good for the moment. We *could* beast all over this type of stuff- we are geeks and it rocks our world, the feedback loop on the utility bills is amazing and immediate- but. We have already bought the (fortunately new construction) home to which we hope to retire (found it at a huge discount at what now appears to have been the bottom of the market) so we are really counting our pennies. Per above, I have fond hopes of installing a wood stove at that location, so when I say I'm saving my pennies for projects at that house, I really mean it. I, personally, love houses of all types and vintage, I love understanding them, improving them if I can, taking care of them, etc. I don't think Mr. Sunshine has quite the level of anthropomorphized love for houses that I have but he does enjoy leaving things in his care better than he found them. We would quite happily pour all of that love onto this little house, and enjoy the immediate feedback on the utility bills, and enjoy highlighting our improvements if/when we sold the house- but we have to be quite mindful of the budget these days. So for right now, it's outlet insulation.

"Many are sold with some sort of air-filled cells as a backer (sort of like shipping wrap material) and that gives you some insulation."

^^ Yeah, IIRC we were given an equivalent R value when we bought our radiant barrier, but I've noticed that when I look at these products now, they are no longer quoted in terms of equivalent R value, but are given an "E" value rating.

"For the vast number of people living in normal homes outside the SW US or some parts of the south, where the sun adds significantly to their AC bills, a radiant barrier does darn near nothing for you."

^^ It's working for us, but our temps during particularly hot, brutal summers have been up to and over 100'F often. We caught a bit of a break during the summer 2013 where temps were more "normal," but summer 2012 was very hot and I can tell you that the radiant barrier worked for us. We typically cool our house down overnight, we lower the thermostat and let the a/c work against cooler night time temps, when our little brick pizza oven is radiating its retained heat back out into the ambient outside air. The radiant barrier and added attic insulation helps keep it cool for the rest of the day. I'm at home all day, in and out with the dog and putting the laundry on the line, tending the garden, etc. i.e. I'm not keeping the house meticulously sealed up during the day. We keep the HVAC a/c t-stat set on 78'F during the day, and the a/c typically doesn't kick on until about 5pm. We keep the house at 78'F until about 11 pm, then we drop it to 72'F for overnight. (I know, I KNOW, but I've reached the age of My Own Personal Summer. It's air conditioning or sleep for me AND YES I HAVE A CEILING FAN DIRECTLY OVER THE BED THANKS FOR ASKING.)

^^ Wash, rinse, repeat.

"You are losing it primarily from air exchange (convection - see above) and by having it it transferred out through the solid framing members (conduction, called thermal bridging in construction)."

^^ You are so right about this. When we tore out the kitchen and the laundry room per above, we tore out all of the old, craptacular, falling apart cabinets (another story there) and everything in them, thus removing our "crap buffer insulation" from the walls. Granted, we also tore out two soffits in which there was no infrastructure- it was just empty space, we guess to fill the space over the original cabinets. The cabinets we tore out weren't original- some people down the street with essentially the same house had the original metal cabinets in the original footprint. The cabinets we tore out were painted plywood and were most likely a DIY kitchen makeover some years earlier. Anyway, the point is, when we tore out the soffits we exposed the exterior brick (come to think of it, there wasn't even any "block" up there... hmmm...) so that was a big ol' "air leak." But more than that, boy howdy were the walls cold. I hoped that patching the big holes left by ripping out the soffits would stop the air leaks- we were living in the house while all of this was happening and it was November/December- but completely closing up those gaping holes didn't help all that much. The kitchen, the laundry room and the entire house was still very cold, with the walls all closed up. News flash- the stuff in your kitchen cabinets *is* your insulation! The entire house warmed up noticeably when the cabinets in the kitchen and the laundry room were installed and all of our crap went back into them.

^^ It's just now occurring to me that I live *inside* a rocket mass heater.


"So there, I'm off my soapbox now."

^^ No, this is a *really* good post, Madcodger. It's an excellent post. It's a good example of why I/we keep coming back to Hearth.com for practical, relevant advice. I'm glad you took the time to post it! Thank you!

 

[becasunshine]

Selfish I know but I kinda wished you had waited to insulate to see what effect the radiant barrier would do on its on. I've considered it but keep seeing comments from it works perfectly to it does nothing. Lots of arguments about how to set up an attic...attic fans can be horrible or great...radiant barriers work or worthless...attic temp matters to not so much. Lots of varying info.

Saladdin, I can say this, and it may help. Others will have different opinions; I can only say what happened to us, on that day. The day that the radiant barrier was installed was a cold, blustery, gray day in February or early March, I believe, which is still winter in Virginia. There was a cold front moving in, it was windy, and the outside air temps were falling as the day progressed. We turned the furnace off to keep it from running continuously while both the front door and the attic door were wide open for most of the day. We ran the pellet stove and unless we were needed, we stayed out of the way, near the pellet stove.

A crew of four people arrived about 8:30 am, and they finished the installation about 11:30 am. They were AWESOME. Really great crew. I distinctly remember looking at the HVAC thermostat a couple of times earlier in the morning. It was reading in the low 60's, The HVAC t-stat is in the hallway, right underneath the attic door, and the pellet stove is in an adjacent room. Even though it was cold and windy outside, gray with no solar gain, and the front door was swinging open every few minutes, and the attic door was open non-stop, and the furnace wasn't on, it didn't surprise me that the HVAC t-stat registered temps as high as the low 60's. The open attic door was acting like a chimney, pulling the pellet stove heat up and right past the HVAC t-stat. OK.

When the crew finished up, they asked us to both come upstairs and look at the job. We did- it was awesome, we were so impressed- but what really caught my eye was the HVAC t-stat. Ok, so the front door had stayed closed for a few minutes while we were upstairs admiring our bright shiny foil covered attic- but the attic door was still wide open, and our attic is by no means sealed. We have wide open gable vents, unsealed soffits and a ridge vent. So while the front door was closed, the attic door and the attic were still acting as a chimney for the pellet stove heat. After several minutes in the attic, we came downstairs and I noticed that the HVAC t-stat had risen by several degrees to the mid-60's, just while we were up in the attic. That was before we added any further insulation.

Yes, it would have been interesting to stop right there, but Mr. Sunshine had the day off from work and we wanted to put it to best use. We were on a roll- so we went straight to Big Box Home Improvement and bought the batting insulation rolls to roll out on the attic floor.

You can see our experience with the radiant barrier in the summer in my response to Madcodger, above.

Saladdin, I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of the skim coat. I just remember the description of the product, and thinking that it would significantly change the outside appearance of the house, and that it would cause the house to step out of character with the surrounding houses and might impact our resale value negatively. Also it sounded like it would a huge and possibly expensive undertaking- I wondered about return on investment on this modest house, particularly if we negatively impacted the resale value in this market.

All that being said, I'm sure that there are companies that do it well, and on any one house it could be done in such a way that it looks really nice. In my mind, I envisioned an old school stucco or southwest adobe kind of look. I'll see if I can find some reference online. If I do I'll come back and post.

 

[becasunshine]

And do something about that fan, even if it's something rigged up temporarily.

We used the remnant of radiant barrier material that the crew left with us and fabricated an insulation barrier that fits inside that fan grill.

This radiant barrier has the reflective layer on both sides with a bit of insulation sandwiched in the middle. We cut two pieces to make two layers- additional insulation plus some sound insulation as well. We covered it with standard aluminum foil, because, per above, it is perforated with tiny holes so it will breathe. That's great in our attic but we want airtight around this hole through the house. We reinforced the edges with Reflectix aluminum tape. Punched a small hole in the middle for the fastener bolt, stuffed it into the back of the grill, put it up on the wall. We can tell a difference immediately. The cold front is blowing in and the wind has picked up. There is no air coming in around that fan.

Of course, one's aim has to be pretty good to place the fastener bolt "blind" because you can't see your target through the layer of aluminum covered insulation, but it's not impossible. I won't be able to use the exhaust fan in this configuration, but somehow I don't think I'll mind for the next few days. I can always take that insulation layer out if I'm doing a canning run or some situation where I want to exhaust a lot of steam or smoke out of the house. Honestly, at either end of the weather spectrum, I try to avoid using that fan- it will suck the conditioned air out of the house in no time flat.

IN OTHER NEWS: almost finished insulating the interior outlets and switches. I had to do a little repair work to some of the plaster around a couple of the boxes in order to make the insulation inserts work. Done and done!

IN THE MEANTIME, BONUS ROUND! Mr. Sunshine has made me SO VERY HAPPY by replacing the hand me down storm door on the back door! His parents gave it to us when they replaced it with a better one. It has served us well for these years but that hand me down door really took it on the chin during a couple of snow storms. Plus, it wasn't all that airtight. Mr. Sunshine has spent the afternoon in the glorious activity of hanging a new door on an old house. You DIYers out there know *exactly* what we mean by that last sentence. Almost done and we can tell a difference already!

AND, Mr. Sunshine is going to put a little weather stripping around a couple of areas in which we have some questions, to see if weather stripping will help. Can't hurt...

WE SURE KNOW HOW TO HAVE FUN ON A SATURDAY NIGHT. Saturday night t.v. is over-rated anyway, right?