Suggestions for new or existing stove(s)

[Oakleerulez]

Hi all, not a woodstove expert but been browsing these forums for a while and decided to ask for advice on my current situation.
I recently bought a 2400 sq/ft 200 year old brick farmhouse. It came with 2 woodstoves which I have been using as my primary heat source. Both are Vermont castings, one defiant, and one vigilant. The vigilant works great and is used to heat a living room, bathroom and small bedroom. Its easy to use, not very smokey and can easily run for hours in the 300 range (stove top temp).
The defiant is a different story. I know the stove needs some work, gaskets, seals around doors, etc. No updraft problems but when i run in horizontal (handle down?) mode it gets very smokey. The stove other than that runs ok. in vertical mode (handle horizontal) stove runs great and can get up the 500+ range. It runs a little cooler surface temp but generaly around the 300 degree range. The burn time is not as long though.
For both stoves I have an 8 inch pipe that goes directly into the chimney behind the stove. (brick with new liner in 2013)
I plan on living in this house for a long time and I want to make the right investment. I know that there are tons of insulation and gaps that need to be filled to make the house feel warmer (home energy audit being done soon hopefully) but I am curious if replacing the defiant is the right move. The first thing that comes to mind is the ideal steel. For the price I could replace both stoves over the course of a few years. With the layout of the house (L shaped) i think 2 stoves is the way to go.
So I guess my question is: Am I thinking correctly that a more efficient stove like an ideal steel is the way to go? Will that give me longer burn times and more heat than the older defiant? Will the ideal steel have any problems with my chimney setup?(8" pipe that goes 14" directly into brick chimney 29" from floor approximately 20' high) Will the ideal steel or similar more modern stove use less wood for more heat? Money is definately a priority for us, since there are lots of other projects that need to be done. But I do want my family to be as warm as possible for as little wood as possible and as safe as possible.

Thanks again, sorry if I left out any important information.

 

[Dmriggs]

Hi all, not a woodstove expert but been browsing these forums for a while and decided to ask for advice on my current situation.
I recently bought a 2400 sq/ft 200 year old brick farmhouse. It came with 2 woodstoves which I have been using as my primary heat source. Both are Vermont castings, one defiant, and one vigilant. The vigilant works great and is used to heat a living room, bathroom and small bedroom. Its easy to use, not very smokey and can easily run for hours in the 300 range (stove top temp).
The defiant is a different story. I know the stove needs some work, gaskets, seals around doors, etc. No updraft problems but when i run in horizontal (handle down?) mode it gets very smokey. The stove other than that runs ok. in vertical mode (handle horizontal) stove runs great and can get up the 500+ range. It runs a little cooler surface temp but generaly around the 300 degree range. The burn time is not as long though.
For both stoves I have an 8 inch pipe that goes directly into the chimney behind the stove. (brick with new liner in 2013)
I plan on living in this house for a long time and I want to make the right investment. I know that there are tons of insulation and gaps that need to be filled to make the house feel warmer (home energy audit being done soon hopefully) but I am curious if replacing the defiant is the right move. The first thing that comes to mind is the ideal steel. For the price I could replace both stoves over the course of a few years. With the layout of the house (L shaped) i think 2 stoves is the way to go.
So I guess my question is: Am I thinking correctly that a more efficient stove like an ideal steel is the way to go? Will that give me longer burn times and more heat than the older defiant? Will the ideal steel have any problems with my chimney setup?(8" pipe that goes 14" directly into brick chimney 29" from floor approximately 20' high) Will the ideal steel or similar more modern stove use less wood for more heat? Money is definately a priority for us, since there are lots of other projects that need to be done. But I do want my family to be as warm as possible for as little wood as possible and as safe as possible.

Thanks again, sorry if I left out any important information.

I owned a vigilant for a few years and liked the stove pretty well. I had the same problem with it that, you seem to be experiencing with the internal damper being in the closed position. When it is closed, it forces the smoke and hot gasses to circulate around the back and sides before exiting out the flue.
I found in mine that the flue gas passages, had become blocked with ash and a few (already demised) starlings who had found their way in over the winter! Once cleaned out, it circulated fine!

 

[jetsam]

I recently bought a 2400 sq/ft 200 year old brick farmhouse. It came with 2 woodstoves which I have been using as my primary heat source.

Ashful will be along shortly to induct you into the club!

Am I thinking correctly that a more efficient stove like an ideal steel is the way to go? Will that give me longer burn times and more heat than the older defiant? Will the ideal steel have any problems with my chimney setup?(8" pipe that goes 14" directly into brick chimney 29" from floor approximately 20' high) Will the ideal steel or similar more modern stove use less wood for more heat?

A new, more efficient stove could give you more heat for less wood, but you are looking at a significant investment in purchasing the stoves and lining the chimneys.

Money is definately a priority for us, since there are lots of other projects that need to be done. But I do want my family to be as warm as possible for as little wood as possible and as safe as possible.

If it was me, I'd plan to replace the stove that isn't working well sooner and the one that is working well later, and spend the money in between on insulating the house.

We definitely have some subject matter experts here who will no doubt be along shortly with some better advice, though.

 

[mol1jb]

I think the first step in heating a house is looking at improvements in insulation. Doesn't make a lot of sense buying a new large wood stove to just send a bunch of heat outdoors. And if the house is 200 years old, chances are there isn't much in the walls or attic. If you are looking for heating efficiency improvements on a budget there is no better bang for your buck than insulation.

That said, spring is a good time to buy because there are a lot of sales, big box stores need to make room for garden supplies and generally discount heavily. Englander and Drolet are well built economical stove brands that you can find in these stores.

I think if the VC stoves are working well enough, keep them for the time being. There were quite efficient in there day which wasn't that long ago.

 

[begreen]

Go large for both stove replacements. It's highly possible that you will need to add 6" liners to match the new stoves. The Ideal Steel is a good stove to consider.

 

[vasten]

I agree that the ideal stoves are decent stove and worth considering down the line. But for right now I would suggest investing some money in sealing up the old defiant. In good working order they throw a ton of heat with good seasoned wood in them. I recently replaced the door and griddle gasket in my vigilant and it was really inexpensive under $40.00 and took maybe half an hour, each.

The dealer I bought my griddle gasket from also advised me to run a bead of cement around each seam in the stove. Because these are cast iron they are built in sections, or panels left right front back. Sealing up the seams is a good idea if you can see spaces or voids around the seams.

The defiant is a different story. I know the stove needs some work, gaskets, seals around doors, etc. No updraft problems but when i run in horizontal (handle down?) mode it gets very smokey. The stove other than that runs ok. in vertical mode (handle horizontal) stove runs great and can get up the 500+ range. It runs a little cooler surface temp but generaly around the 300 degree range. The burn time is not as long though.

To me 300 on the griddle is a cold stove you need to keep the flue gases over 250 all the way to the top. Higher flue temps equals less smoke, if your stove top is only 300 then it would be hard to maintain those temps on an external masonry chimney. If you can play with the thermostatic damper on the back and keep bumping it up until you dont see smoke out of the chimney. I have a feeling when you get it to that point that stove will come alive and crank some heat. The defiant was the first and largest stove they made and if I am not mistaken was meant to heat 2000 + sq ft on its own.

More heat equals more fuel they are not as efficient as today's stoves but they will crank a lot of heat. if you are using a magnetic stove pipe thermo to gauge the temp of the stove keep in mind they are not all that accurate, I tested mine with an infrared thermo and found out that the hotter the stove got the less accurate the stove pipe gauge became.

Being in a similar sounding situation as you are I am focusing my time and effort on sealing up my house, then once that is done looking at a different stove. I am heating half the space you are with my vigilant in a 200 yr old farm house with 0 insulation.

 

[Oakleerulez]

Thanks guys for the replies. I hadn't thought about the need to put a liner in the chimney, so that will certainly sway my decision. If it were as simple as grabbing an ideal steel for 1700 after tax credits and throwing that in, I thought it would be a good investment. I forgot to mention that the chimney is in the interior of the home (not sure if that matters or not). I guess if you guys dont mind, my thread will evolve to a few more questions:
1)The defiant is certainly capable of throwing out some heat. If I am not careful the temps will get well into the "too hot" range on an old magnetic thermometer. The problem I have is burn time. I stuff the stove before bed, and put the handle in the vertical position. The teardrop is mostly closed, and thermostat set to about closed at 350 degrees. When i get up about 6 hours later usually stovetop is around 300 and most of the fuel has been consumed. During the day I normally throw in 3 or 4 pieces of wood, every 2 hours or so. that will keep the stovetop around 300-350. Am I just flat out running this stove wrong? should i be putting more wood in, less often?
2) if I were to purchase a new stove to replace the defiant(I do already have a budget for insulation/spray foam insulation), is there a rule of thumb to know if i will need a liner? Or would that be a question for the manufacturer?
3) it sound like a few folks have older homes here. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good forum or online resources for that.

Thanks again.

 

[vasten]

sounds like you are on the right track and glad you are looking for info to read I suspect you are going to get a lot here, a lot of great people on the site with a ton of years of experience.

These stoves were meant to be packed full and run hot. It sounds like you are running the stove fine, get the griddle up to 500 deg let it run there for a while I believe the manual says 30 mins twice a day to clear the chimney from creosote build up, then pack it full let it char (get all the wood black) flip it to horizontal burn handle in the vertical position, set your thermostatic damper to the desired heat out put and walk away.

Burn times will always depend on several factors Type of wood burned, quality of the wood how seasoned it is the demand for heat, the size of the splits, and how tight is your stove. For its time this stove was ahead of its time, as the area cooled and calls for more heat the thermostatic damper on the back is designed to open up to allow more air in and pump more heat out. That factor alone will make burn times for each person different, if your house has a high demand for heat then it will go through a load faster than someone with less demand.

What type of wood are you burning how long has it been cut split and stacked? Pine for example will expel its energy very fast giving you a fast hot fire that doesn't last as long. Where hickory or oak will give you a long hot fire that can last several hours. Here is a link describing firewood and their heat out puts, I refer to it often

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/howood.htm)

Is the wood solid does it look punky or show signs of bug infestation, this is poor quality wood that some firewood places will sell as good fire wood. This wood will tend to be harder to light, give off less heat and burn faster than a solid chunk.

How large are the pieces of wood your are burning? The defiant I believe takes 20 inch logs, and about the size of your hand when picked up by the end. If you are burning 16 in long pieces half as thick as that, the stove will run right through them.

Also what are you expectations of how much wood you plan to burn, I have learned that my stove will go through about 10 face a year, but this year I have only ordered 200 gals of fuel oil and still have some left in my tank. Running two stoves I would imagine you should go through at least that if not 15 depending on how much you rely on your furnace

If your gaskets are not tight then it is letting outside air into your stove. This will make the stove less efficient as it is meant to only have the air come in through the tear drop and the thermostatic damper.

I did a test on my stove to compare, when my griddle thermo is reading 300 the infrared read 240 on the griddle, to me that is not hot enough to be safe, you said it is pumping a lot of smoke I suspect that is due to running the stove cooler and not being able to keep the flue warm enough 250 to the top, to prevent creosote and that is something you want to look at.

As far as saftey these stove are meant to run in the 500-650 degree range safely all day, and to me a hotter fire means a cleaner chimney and a safer one.

You should also consider posting in the classic pre 1993 section of the page there are a of us running these older vermont castings that can help you out from there.

 

[begreen]

Be sure you are using a stove top thermometer. If you are using a stove pipe thermometer on the stove top, ignore the ranges. They are meant for surface stove pipe temps. Instead go by the actual thermometer reading. 650F stove top temps on a Defiant or Vigilant are not uncommon.

The Ideal Steel may work ok on your existing chimney. It will depend on the clay liner size inside the chimney. For proper operation you don't want to go too much over 2X the 6" IS flue connection area of ~28 sq in..

 

[Oakleerulez]

Thanks for the replies guys!
I actually sent Woodstock a FB message asking about placing in my existing chimney. I have to get some measurements but from what I remember, they clay liner is brand new, and a brand new chimney. (went to clean it out this fall, and it had never been used) the clay liner was pretty small iirc.

I think vasten has talked me into atleast trying to give the VCs some TLC and maybe replace the gaskets on them. I think the idea of a newer more efficient stove, but i also like the idea of $200 over $2000.

 

[begreen]

If it's an 8x8 it might work fine.