switch from wood to coal

[woodconvert]

Hey gang. Total newbie to the board so hang in there with me.
I'm a well seasoned wood burner...I burn anywhere from 20-20 face cord of oak(red and white) per season (nothing but serious fires here). My body is telling me it's getting time to think about switching to something a bit less labor intensive. That something to me looks like anthricite coal. Now, i'm here in lower Michigan and I think i've seen coal on a couple of occasions but know less than squat about it. First, what is the cost per 40lb bag (avg.) or per ton (avg.)?. Can I get the stuff here in Michigan or do I have to road trip to Pennsylvania??. If I run low during the heating season is the stuff still available??.

Now to the meat. I've done some googlin' and the only stove i've seen that fits my bill is the Kodiak by Alaska Stove. Anybody know anything about them?. I see they have been around for a while. Give me the good the bad and the ugly...plus if there are any other stoves out there along those lines let me know what they are. I have a 2,500sqft log home with tall ceilings. Would this thing have it's tongue hangin' out trying to keep the place warm??. I currently have a Jotul Firelight catalyst model running without the catalyst and it does a fine job.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[webbie]

I think the first thing you have to do is lock down potential sources of the fuel and the cost. Having just one source is foolish.
Check around on the web as to Anthracite dealers...you might even want to send an email to Reading Coal, Blaschak Coal or some of the other producers and see what they have as far as distribution in your area. In general, you do not want to burn the soft coal from Ohio, etc.

Check the prices of other fuels - gas/lp, fuel oil, pellets, corn, etc....and put them all into our Fuel Cost Calculator in order to see what the cost of each delivered BTU is. This will allow you to make an informed decision as to exactly what you are saving...if anything.

There are options with wood that are more serious - central heaters (gasification) with storage, etc. - check out some of Erics threads in the Green Room, or do a forum search on Tarm.

I think a lot of things will fall into place as you do additional research.

 

[begreen]

Welcome woodconvert. This sounds like a commercial sized load of wood. What are you heating in sq ft.?

 

[wg_bent]

Welcome woodconvert. This sounds like a commercial sized load of wood. What are you heating in sq ft.?

He said 20 face cords. That's like 4 or 5 cords. Pretty normal. Certainly not Eric territory.

 

[begreen]

Ah, ok thanks Warren. We don't see face cords too much out here. I missed that part.

 

[BrotherBart]

Welcome woodconvert. This sounds like a commercial sized load of wood. What are you heating in sq ft.?

He said 20 face cords. That's like 4 or 5 cords. Pretty normal. Certainly not Eric territory.

Yep. I think Mr. Johnson refers to that as kindling.

 

[wg_bent]

You might want to look at the ESSE stoves. They are listed in england as multi-fuel but only as coal burners here in the US. The cream of the crop is probably this stove though: (broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/callouts.asp?id=7)

And I'm not sure but a Morso 2ub says this on the website:
A practical classic
This extremely popular cast-iron wood-burning stove can, with its long firebox, accommodate logs up to 18 inches in length. It is a radiant stove and is equipped with a riddling grate, ash tray and ashpan, and, in addition to wood and briquettes, can be fired with coal and petroleum (pet) coke.

but in the manual says fuel is wood. I think it's designed to do coal also, but for some reason they don't admit that for US sales.
It sure is a purdy stove too. It's sort of hot and curvy.. ;-)

 

[heydan]

I currently have a Jotul Firelight catalyst model running without the catalyst and it does a fine job.
.

You could reduce your workload right away just by using the catalyst. Use less air if you want less heat but you're wasting fuel and polluting if you don't use your catalyst. You'll get more heat from the same amount of wood if you use the catalyst and that means less work for you.

 

[restorer]

Welcome to the forum.

While I agree with Web to make sure you have a stable source of fuel and from more than one source, you may be well served to check alternatives like pellet and multi-fuel stoves. They are easier to maintain than the total requirements for a wood stove, you still have the buying, stacking and loading of the pellets, corn or bio-mass, but you are dealing with 40lb. bags. The cutting and splitting is eliminated. These stoves can be thermostatically controlled, and fairly automatic except for loading and required cleanings. You are in an area where pellets are readily available, and corn is within reach.

Check out your fuel costs, pick a few stoves you like, take their data and plug it into the fuel calculator and you can see your costs and how long it will take to pay back.

 

[jjbaer]

Hey gang. Total newbie to the board so hang in there with me.
I'm a well seasoned wood burner...I burn anywhere from 20-20 face cord of oak(red and white) per season (nothing but serious fires here). My body is telling me it's getting time to think about switching to something a bit less labor intensive. That something to me looks like anthricite coal. Now, i'm here in lower Michigan and I think i've seen coal on a couple of occasions but know less than squat about it. First, what is the cost per 40lb bag (avg.) or per ton (avg.)?. Can I get the stuff here in Michigan or do I have to road trip to Pennsylvania??. If I run low during the heating season is the stuff still available??.

Now to the meat. I've done some googlin' and the only stove i've seen that fits my bill is the Kodiak by Alaska Stove. Anybody know anything about them?. I see they have been around for a while. Give me the good the bad and the ugly...plus if there are any other stoves out there along those lines let me know what they are. I have a 2,500sqft log home with tall ceilings. Would this thing have it's tongue hangin' out trying to keep the place warm??. I currently have a Jotul Firelight catalyst model running without the catalyst and it does a fine job.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Theres an anthricite coal forum located here that's super:

http://www.nepadigital.com/bb/index.php

they can tell you all about manual load coal stoves, stokers that have bins but use no electricity and full automatic (electric) stokers...all have advantages. They can also tell you where to get coal and give you coal prices.....

PS what city in lower Mich...I grew up most of my life in Adrian, about 30 miles north of Toledo

 

[Mike Wilson]

I've done a lot of research on coal stoves, and am close to buying one for the house. Check out the NEPA Coal Forum, they are to coal as we are to wood. The prior posts are correct, be certain you have a stable fuel supplier, preferably suppliers. If you're a serious coal burner, you don't buy it by the 40 pound bag, you get it by the ton, delivered to your bin. Then consider the next hurdle... where and how will you dispose of the coal ash. Coal stoves generate probably 10 times more ash than a wood stove does, and its not the nice healthy stuff you can dump in your flower beds. Then, consider where in the house you want to put the stove, and how you will vent it. Coal stoves generate dust, hand fed stoves moreso than stokers. Conveniently, many allow power venting, so no chimney required... just a constant source of electricity. Hand fired stoves are a bear, I'd definitely think of a stoker...the Harmans are nice, but I've heard recent customer service nightmares. I've heard very good things about Alaska, Keystoker, and LeisureLine. If you get a stoker, make sure it can run a CoalTrol, to regulate your coal usage. The one I picked, if I do pull the trigger and buy one, is the Keystoker 90. You can put the stove in the basement, direct vent it outside, and run an air duct loop to the first floor of your home. The advantage to this setup us that you greatly cut down on coal dust in the house... which coal stoves are notorious for, especially hand fired ones.

Any more questions, ask away...

-- Mike

PS - damned... Cast posted while I was typing!

 

[woodconvert]

Ooops, hit the wrong button on my first reply...I musta choked under the pressure.
I do have e-mails into 2 or 3 coal companies, obviously all are in Pa. I also have e-mails into a few stove manufacturers. I have also considered other fuel sources but anthricite (if I can get it) leads the pack by a large margin. Propane and oil are not an option (I currently have propane..what little I use..but the price fluctuates too much. The same applies with oil. Nobody stocks pellets in quantity around here and I DO NOT WANT AN AUGER or any electrical hookup. I wouldn't be opposed to a radiant blower but other than that I don't want to depend on electricity. Soft coal from Ohio...or anything from Ohio is not an option ;-P . Corn is off the table as the price is rising due to the market for ethanol/methanol.
I'm intrigued, how much wood do you guys burn if 20-25 face cord is kindling??. I know many people including myself that burn wood for heat (100% for heat...no furnace usage) and to date i've never met anyone that burns as much as I do unless they have a yardbarn. Oh, and face cords are the norm around here rather than full cords.
heydan- I used the catalyst for three years and i'll never NEVER run a catalyst again. Maybe it's just a birth defect of the Jotul but the thing eat them up. I could barely get a season out of the catalyst or back panel. I thought I was over firing it but I talked to a Jotul rep and he said I was not. He also said DO NOT install the optional catalyst temp monitor as it's another place to let air into the catalyst chamber which worsens the problem. I installed new gasketing everywhere as I thought I may have a leak but it changed nothing. SO, now, I run it without a catalyst and keep the surface temp (on the right front of the stove) between 450F and 550F and it does what I need.
castiron- bitchin' link for the anthricite...i'm digging through it now. BIG help. Oh, and i'm up in Howell. It's about an hour and change north of Adrian (my wife went to college there!. Small world.)
Mike Wilson- I've taken in to account the amount of ash that will be generated and that will not be an issue for me. When you say hand fired...whatcha mean?. I would like a stove with a big hopper that is gravity fed.

Thanks a ton guys...I guarantee i'll be firing more questions as they creep in to my dome.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Hand fired... as in, open door, insert coal, close door. That versus a stoker, which I see you aren't interested in, or a gravity fed one, which is somewhere in between for convenience and reliability. The Alaska Kodiak is gravity fed, as are several (broken link removed to http://www.hitzer.com/heaters.html) stoves. Some burn wood and coal, although they technically aren't EPA approved to do so, and won't be as efficient as a newer model wood stove.

-- Mike

 

[webbie]

BTW, just for info, catalysts in stoves like yours are 100% required to be warranted by the manufacturer (EPA regs) - I think for at least 5 or 6 years. I think the same goes for replacement cats. So you can usually continue to replace for a lowered cost if needed.

 

[woodconvert]

Hand fired, as in, open door, insert coal, close door. That versus a stoker, which I see you aren't interested in, or a gravity fed one, which is somewhere in between for convenience and reliability.

-- Mike

Mike
What is the difference between a stoker and a gravity fed...i'm pretty sure I want a gravity fed, no auger type unit.

 

[woodconvert]

BTW, just for info, catalysts in stoves like yours are 100% required to be warranted by the manufacturer (EPA regs) - I think for at least 5 or 6 years. I think the same goes for replacement cats. So you can usually continue to replace for a lowered cost if needed.

Trust me...I know. I called Jotul after the first meltdown and all they said was "you must have over fired it". I didn't think I did and they were not going to cough up a catalyst so I bought another one, talked to the rep and he said "run it between 400F and 650F and you won't have a problem". I did run it in that range with temps rarely over 550F with the same result. I called Jotul for a catalyst and they said "you must have over fired it" I then purchased another (they are $250+ ea.), talked to an engineer at Jotul and he said that the catalyst and back panel of the unit has a finite life span and with the amount of wood I burn that i'm probably exceeding that in one burning season >:-( . Needless to say I did my part in trying to comply with the EPA and, at this point, I just cannot justify the headaches. All this is moot anyhow if...IF I can get some steady suppliers of anthricite.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Mike
What is the difference between a stoker and a gravity fed...i'm pretty sure I want a gravity fed, no auger type unit.

Stokers have something like an auger, (broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/callouts.asp?id=3), which is apparently not what you want. They are, however, blindingly convenient, and make coal into a convenient heating source. Most people who burn coal as a sole heat source use stokers, less fuss, less mess, much more controllable heat, and they use less coal. You can hook them up to a thermostat, etc.

-- Mike

 

[jjbaer]

I know many people including myself that burn wood for heat (100% for heat...no furnace usage) and to date i've never met anyone that burns as much as I do unless they have a yardbarn. Oh, and face cords are the norm around here rather than full cords..

A few burn more but your 4-5 cords equivalent is still a lot of wood.

castiron- bitchin' link for the anthricite...i'm digging through it now. BIG help. Oh, and i'm up in Howell. It's about an hour and change north of Adrian (my wife went to college there!. Small world.)..

My MIL lives in Dexter and my SIL lives in Brighton....I lived right next to the high school and Bixby Hospital in Adrian, about 4 miles from the college (actually there's two colleges in that town of 21,000, Adrian College and Sienna Heights College)...small world is right.....

When you say hand fired...whatcha mean?. I would like a stove with a big hopper that is gravity fed...

There are basically three types: 1) hand fed, 2) gravity drop bin fed and 3) electric (stoker) driven. An example of the hand fed is the beautiful Vermont Castings Vigilant coal stove ( (broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productline.cfm?category=16&sc=47) ) which is the prettiest coal stove made by anyone, anywhere, except maybe some European models. By American standards, this coal stove is "furniture quality" cast iron and you could put it in a living room with fine furniture and a Grand piano!!. You hand feed it a load of coal about every 8-14 hrs and control temp by reducing the air supply. There's only so low you can go on the air before you extinguish the flame so you can only dial down the heat so much before you put out the flame. You "shake the grate" (to drop the ash/clinkers) at the same time you feed it. There is no electricity required and usually no blower on this one. Next is the gravity drop bin models, no electricity needed (example is the Hitzer at www.hitzer.com). You fill a hopper, close it and as the coal burns and ashes drop, the new coal in the bin automatically drops into the burn area. Depending on the burn rate, you can store up to a few days worth of coal in the hopper and theoretically don't have to feed it for that time however since they also don't use power, you still have to manually shake the grate a few times a day to drop the ash/clinkers so it still requires tending (as with the hand fed stove) but you don't have to feed it each time you shake the grates as you do in the hand fed stoves because the gravity feed hopper supplies the coal. So, with both the hand feed and gravity drop stoves, you still have to shake the grates to keep the fire going. The last is auto-feed (i.e., electric stoker). In these you fill a large hopper that might hold up to 4 days worth of coal (depending on feed rate) and an electric auger "feeds" or pushes the coal into the burn area at a controlled rate. When it does this the ashes drop automatically so it will run unattended for up to several days. The down side is that they're more expensive, have more moving parts to breakdown (some have computer boards in them to regulate the heat) and generally weigh more and don't work during electrical outage unless you have a battery back-up. The good thing is that because they're auto feed stoves, you can go from 5,000 BTU/hr all the way up to their maximum whereas the other stoves usually can't go that low because they're only air controlled (the auto stokers are air and fuel controlled and therefore can go to lower heat outputs without snuffing out the flame because they also control fuel feed rates).

A twist: on some or all three types you may find a power vent option that allows you to vent out a sidewall...but...they're A/C powered and they cease to work properly in an outage...might want a battery back-up for these......

Hope this helps

 

[woodconvert]

Most people who burn coal as a sole heat source use stokers, less fuss, less mess, much more controllable heat, and they use less coal.

-- Mike[/quote]

Mike
I say I don't want an auger as if the power goes out I don't want to be left without heat....but how much less coal do they use?. And what about less mess, I mean don't you have mess when loading the hopper regardless of the feed type?

 

[woodconvert]

My MIL lives in Dexter and my SIL lives in Brighton....I lived right next to the high school and Bixby Hospital in Adrian, about 4 miles from the college (actually there's two colleges in that town of 21,000, Adrian College and Sienna Heights College)...small world is right.....

Heh, Brighton is about ten minutes east of me and I was just in Dexter a couple weeks ago. I had a field trip with my son. We went to a trout farm in Dexter. Neat town but growing too fast...like everywhere else.

As of right now, I am really leaning towards a gravity feed. I like not having to rely on electricity. Oh, the Vigilant coal stove has the look i'm looking for but it appears to be a bit on the small side. The only stove i've managed to find that has the look and capacity I need is the Kodiak http://www.alaskastove.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=29
One thing I noticed in the picture of the stove is the flue looks awfully small. What size is typical for a coal stove?

It's not the greatest look but doesn't look too "modern". I have a log home and I don't want to install something that looks like a sore thumb.

 

[webbie]

Flues on coal stoves can be smaller - 5 inch is typical for European stoves up to 60K BTU - 6 inch is typical for USA.

The Vigilant coal is a good coal stove - you should consider it.

I suppose most decent hand-fired coal stoves are about 70% efficient, while stoker-fed probably hit 80%+. Of course, the stoker does use electric and there are parts which wear, etc. - but some of the designs have been around a long time and are quite reliable. Still, I understand not wanting the electric use or the noise.

 

[Mike Wilson]

I say I don't want an auger as if the power goes out I don't want to be left without heat....but how much less coal do they use?. And what about less mess, I mean don't you have mess when loading the hopper regardless of the feed type?

I heard you can cut your coal use by around 20% or so, depending on how its dialed down... but check the threads up on NEPA, they've got more detailed information. I'm just posting from memory. Bottom line is that if you leave the house in the morning, you can have the thermostat drop for the day, then it comes up before you return home, same for late night use. As for less mess, every time you load the stove, you get dust. Every time you empty the stove, you get dust. On a stoker, you load and unload much less frequently, so less dust. Oh, and there are internal battery backups for stokers, so you still have heat when the power goes out. Check out the Harman (broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/callouts.asp?id=4), as an example.

-- Mike

 

[woodconvert]

[quote author="Webmaster" date="1180119017"]Flues on coal stoves can be smaller - 5 inch is typical for European stoves up to 60K BTU - 6 inch is typical for USA.

Well if the flues are smaller...does that pose any problems dumping into a bigger bore chimney???. I think my chimney is 8"sq and 35+ feet tall and drafts like crazy (sometimes overdrafts if the wind is right...that's exciting).

The Vigilant coal is a good coal stove - you should consider it.

Well, at this point all options are on the table but the info on the Vigilant says it heats up to 2,000 sq ft. My home is 2,500 and I have cathedral ceilings so I don't know if the heat output of the Vigilant would match my needs. I DO NOT want to install a stove that i have to run wide open all the time just to keep up with the weather. That could be hard on a stove. I will say that the Vigilant has the look that I want. It's not much different than my Jotul Firelight.

I suppose most decent hand-fired coal stoves are about 70% efficient, while stoker-fed probably hit 80%+.

Whoa...that's a pretty big difference when you are talking about a couple tons of coal. Hmmmm.

 

[woodconvert]

I heard you can cut your coal use by around 20% or so, depending on how its dialed down...
-- Mike[/quote]

Well, one out I have is that my wife works at home so I can have real live dialer downer
I don't see where the savings comes in. Currently, with my wood burner, we get the house toasty warm and then dampen it down and the house stays warm the rest of the day. I assume the coal stove would do the same thing. Is this not correct?.

 

[woodconvert]

HUZZAH!, I found a dealer about two hours north of me that sells both the Kodiak coal stove and the anthracite. I'm sure the price for the coal will be astronomical compared to what you guys out east pay but it'll be worth it.

Question: I've stated that i'm currently running a Jotul Firelight wood stove. Well, i just looked it back up and it's a 55,000Btu/hr max rating. The Kodiak is a 100,000btu/hr. The Vigilant is 50,000btu/hr. I now realize that I have more options on the table than I thought (for some reason I thought the Firelight was 80,000btu/hr :-S ). IF, if I got the Kokiak with roughly double the but/hr i'd obviously have to run it at less than it's full rating. Would this be a problem?. If I ran it at half capacity or just over half will I have a problem keeping a good bed of coals. I've read on this site that coal fires are much fussier than wood.