Switching to a new stove.

[mwhitnee]

Hi there,

I am new here and this is my first post. I'm 45 and bought a house in November in Mass which has a Defiant 1A.

I've grown up with fireplaces and wasn't really a newbie to the fire thing, but I had to sort out some issues with the Defiant but did so without too much trouble. New gaskets, cleaned chimney myself, and resolved a draft leak near the top of the vent stack and it worked great all year. Burned 4 cords and it really helped with the bill, never mind the joy of having fire almost every day. It went quickly through wood even with using the damper.

Anyway, the fireback is cracked in the Defiant (worked all season though, used furnace cement) and I was contemplating rebuilding it myself or maybe just getting a new stove. At first I was going to go high end like a VC flex burn but then really though about it and wanted a real work horse, something with a real high output as I might be able to keep that oil bill lower.

The Defiant stove states 60,000 BTU output. A Breckwell SW740L claims 113,000 BTUs, is this stove really going to be that much more powerful? That's hard to believe. I know the whole BTU thing is a little tricky but....

This Breckwell stove uses a 6" vent, my chimney has a 8" vent. Am I going to have some sort of draft issue?

I would love people's opinion on the Breckwell stove or if someone feels strongly about rebuilding the Defiant and why. I know I would like a stove that burned up to 8 hours to last through the night.

Thanks for your input!

 

[begreen]

I don't know much about the Breckwell but it should at least burn cleaner with a lot less moving parts. As for the heat output. take marketing with a very large grain of salt.

 

[mwhitnee]

So how does one really judge what size stove to get?

Are there ways to "cheat" wall stove clearances? Last year I just used some Durock to protect the side walls of the alcove I have as only the back and floor are stone and I wasn't sure it was to code. Doubt that would pass an inspection with a new stove.

 

[begreen]

Adding Durock to the walls does little to improve safety and nothing to improve code or clearance compliance. It's better to talk about specific situations and needs. That way we can look at the tested stove specs and see if the mfg. allows a clearance reduction with a proper, ventilated wall shield.

The Breckwell is a fairly new import from China IIRC. There is very little performance and no longevity info on this stove that I know of. It may end up being a decent stove, but at this point I have little info to go by on it. The best way to judge the appropriate stove size is to compare the heating needs vs the stove's firebox capacity. How many sq ft will the stove be heating?

 

[Oldman47]

The best way to estimate proper stove size is to use firebox volume, especially if you want a long burn. You only get to load it full so faster burn means less time but a hotter stove. By getting a larger fire box you can load more BTUs and stretch a relatively high output burn by having more fuel. If you are working with a tight space look for a shielded type stove. They tend to have much tighter allowable clearances because the outer surface doesn't get as hot. Instead they circulate air behind the shield to conduct heat away from the stove. Every stove manual I have looked at had a diagram that shows allowable clearances to combustibles and most also have a drawing for alcove placement.

 

[mwhitnee]

Thank you for your replies. I have seen that there is little info on the Breckwell but the few reviews I've seen seem good.

My hearth/half alcove is 59 1/4" wide and 46" deep. The floor and back wall of the hearth are natural stone, while the side walls jut out 18" inches and are drywall. The picture should help.

The square footage is around 2400 square feet-this includes the second floor. The Defiant when I got it rolling did pretty well, but struggled to be comfortable at times, especially upstairs late at night- it got cold. It was difficult to get it to burn 8 hours and then pack it in the morning in a hurry before I went to work.

The house had an addition around 12 years ago and got new windows, most Anderson. The house seems pretty tight.

If I could get something in there that met the clearances somehow and would put out more heat I would like that. The room is rather big, estimating 25 by 15, so there is room for the heat to travel, and it is where we spend most of our time. It is also open to the kitchen and the stairs. Decided the stove doesn't have to be beautiful, just not ugly.

The other thing I could do is look at the actual fireplace (another room, central chimney), but I am hesitant to do that as I would lose the ambiance of an open fire and I have a nice baby grand in there. I'm nervous about drying out the the soundboard.

 

[Grisu]

Have you taken a look at the clearance requirements of the Breckwell? (broken link removed to http://breckwell.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2013/manualspgmanuals/SW740%20manual.pdf)
If I see that correctly it needs 27" to the sidewall which means it won't fit in your alcove. In addition, make sure you have the required ceiling height for any stove you are considering.

Two large stoves that get good reviews here are the Jotul F55 and the Pacific Energy Summit or T6. Check their manuals whether they will fit in your situation; the F55 may just barely work. Jotul also has currently a $300 off program if you drop off your old stove at the same time. For extended burn times, I would look at a catalytic stove. The BlazeKing Ashford 30 would be a great option. However, that would probably require downsizing to a 6" flue or you may have draft problems. How tall is the chimney?

 

[mwhitnee]

Chimney around 24 feet as I bought a set of brush rods to 18 feet and a 6' extension and used all of it. This picture is not of the chimney itself (another I have) but it is very similar. The liner sticks up maybe around 3 or 4 inches, I was able to get on a SS cap on it last year. 11" by 7" liner. This is a clay liner, correct?

 

[claydogg84]

Chimney around 24 feet as I bought a set of brush rods to 18 feet and a 6' extension and used all of it. This picture is not of the chimney itself (another I have) but it is very similar. The liner sticks up maybe around 3 or 4 inches, I was able to get on a SS cap on it last year. 11" by 7" liner. This is a clay liner, correct?

It's a terra cotta lined chimney, yes. Most of the following comments will be to get a SS liner installed. On another note, I replaced my Defiant with a Jotul Oslo and absolutely wish I had just kept the Defiant. Perhaps my opinion will change over the next couple burning seasons, as I'll have wood more suitable for the Jotul.

 

[mwhitnee]

The chimney liner is only 12 years old or so, what's the point in that if I don't have to change my flue diameter? I really don't want to do that if possible, I was trying to keep this project around $2500-3250. I can install the stove and probably a liner if I had instruction, but money would become an issue I think.

I don't want to open up a huge can of worms here and annoy people, I'm just looking to upgrade my stove if it is worth doing. My goal would be to get a stove that produced more heat with a blower that would have a longer burn time. I could look into an insert for my fireplace, just worried about the 12,000 dollar piano in there getting dusty and dried out. If I had an insert, I would need to connect it to the terra cotta liner or get a SS liner in.

I would like to hear why you would rather have the Defiant back. If I kept it, I would imagine people would be recommending a rebuild, and I wonder how much better it would work. I wonder if people have experienced a situation where the stove was so warped that it would not go back together.

 

[begreen]

The current clearances for the Defiant look woefully short. Is that just a stone veneer on cement board behind the stove or a full masonry wall to the exterior? The closest the Defiant can be to an approved NFPA wall is 12". The side clearances are definitely too close. There is supposed to be 36" to the unprotected side and rear walls. The clearances can be reduced only if A) the wall is entirely non-combustible (masonry all the way through) or B) an NFPA wall shield is in front of it. This looks like a risky install and one that insurance would not approve. If the decision is to keep the Defiant proper wall shielding needs to be installed. Do you have the manual for this stove?

The flue needs to be sized according to the stove requirements. The Defiant takes an 8" flue the Breckwell takes 6". You don't want to connect it to a chimney that is too large. The area of 6" round pipe is ~28 sq in. If the chimney is 7" x 11" it is 77 sq in or 2.75 times the area of a 6" pipe. That is too large for the Breckwell. It should have a 6" liner to draft better and safer. The Defiant's 8" pipe is ~50 sq in and a much closer fit to the 7" x 11" flue.

 

[Grisu]

If budget is a major concern take a look at the Heatilator Eco-choice WS22: (broken link removed to http://www.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7057_128.PDF)
It has pretty tight clearance requirements and with a 2.7 cu ft firebox should get you close in heat output and burn times where you want to be. The few members here who have one seem very satisfied or at least I have not heard anything bad about it yet.

BeGreen already explained why you want to have a properly sized liner. If you do the install yourself you should be able to get the WS22 and the liner and stay within your budget.

Make sure you have wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20% for any modern EPA-approved stove. Almost every time someone complains about their new stove it is due to the wood not being dry enough. Usually that requires stacking the split firewood in a location with lots of wind and sun for up to three years. How long has your wood been seasoned?

 

[claydogg84]

I would like to hear why you would rather have the Defiant back. If I kept it, I would imagine people would be recommending a rebuild, and I wonder how much better it would work. I wonder if people have experienced a situation where the stove was so warped that it would not go back together.

Mainly ease of use. The Defiant I got up to temp, closed the damper and it provided heat for my house for a solid 6 hours but easily re lit after 8. The Jotul is a bit more finicky as it needs much drier wood and the shutdown process takes 30 minutes or so. It sounds like your stove is in need of a rebuild as well as pretty big clearance issues.

 

[begreen]

Note that the Defiant is a very serious heater. If it is not able to heat the space well it is dubious that a smaller stove will do the job unless the problem was poorly seasoned wood. Even the older Defiant functions much better with dry wood. Otherwise too much heat is lost driving out the retained moisture as steam.

Can you tell us more about the house, its age, insulation and total square footage?

 

[mwhitnee]

The back of the alcove and floor is solid natural stone with mortar. I used Durock as I thought the side clearances looked poor and wanted it safer, and I'm sure it at least helped a little. I have the manual, I was just unable to do anything (or so I thought) until the end of the season. This is another reason I was thinking of switching the stove.

Claydogg my Defiant operated just like you said yours did. Sometimes the stove would have to be relit almost from scratch, but often I could get it going pretty easy. You can get it cranking for sure, got mine up to 700 on occasion but usually between 450-600.

I cannot guarantee wood moisture content around here. I have nothing stored and drying as of yet, and no one I have connected with in my area has actual completely seasoned wood. I'll be working on that this season for next year. The Defiant burned the wood I got fine. Probably not efficiently but fine. My wood was plain white, not grey by any stretch.

I looked at the Jotul F55 and it looks like it might fit, but I don't want it to be finicky with the moisture content of the wood. Will my chimney help with that? It has a nice draft- don't even have to prime it.

I should look into the NFPA wall shield, which I know nothing about. I would do a liner, but would rather not if possible and find a stove with an 8" vent.

Grisu I'll look at that stove.

Thanks a lot!

 

[aansorge]

A Blaze King King will fit. It is a huge stove that is expensive and perhaps not all that attractive to some but it will outperform virtually every other stove in terms of heat production and burn times. It runs an 8 inch flue and is super easy to run and with its narrow clearances to combustibles (with the optional side skirts) it will fit in your alcove. You'll need to load it only once or twice a day and it will heat your house easily.

 

[begreen]

That was my thought too aansorge, or perhaps the Sirocco 30? Not sure how well it will heat the house until we know more about it.

 

[claydogg84]

Keep in mind every EPA secondary combustion style stove is going to want/need dry wood to run correctly. Begreen said it, the Defiant is a heat monster, but my Oslo is comparable.

 

[bholler]

And I would like to add a 12 year old clay lined chimney could be just fine or it could be cracked all to hell. It could have proper clearances to combustibles but it probably does not. And it is definitely not insulated. I work on many clay lined chimneys that work fine but just about every time we put an insulated liner in one the customer says they had no idea how much better their stove worked. And i have to agree with everyone else if your defiant isn't enough stove you need to be looking at the big boys. A relativity new one on the market that after a few tweaks seems to be working very well is the big regency 5100. But with any of the big stoves you are going to be over that budget. People make a big deal out of the wood thing but really new or old your stove will work much better with dry wood and be pretty crappy with wet wood.

 

[mwhitnee]

I shined a flashlight down my chimney liner and saw no damage or any terra cotta at the bottom. I cleaned that thing out good.

A Blaze King Ultra (pedestal) with a basic door and a blower is going for around 3700 dollars before tax here in mass after I called a couple places. Does that sound right? The idea of low maintenance and long burn times is very appealing.

I guess they have an old stove trade in incentive until Friday in Mass, but I need to look into this. One place said they have it for certain models and the other said nothing about certain models. Both have a similar price.

I might consider this stove if it would fit.

 

[begreen]

Price sounds about right for the east coast. It's a premium stove with long burn times. Make that very long burn times. Except for very cold weather you would probably only be loading it once a day. For this location you will need the side shields on the stove to meet the clearance requirements.

 

[mwhitnee]

Thank you begreen and everybody who has responded to me. I found I can get a 1000.00 rebate if I act quickly so I'll work on it and let you know what happens.

 

[bholler]

I shined a flashlight down my chimney liner and saw no damage or any terra cotta at the bottom.

I would recommend a professional inspection with a camera periodically as well as having them check for proper clearances

 

[Grisu]

Check with BlazeKing whether the King will work on only a clay-lined chimney. Their stoves are so efficient that you could have draft problems with your current flue.

 

[claydogg84]

Thank you begreen and everybody who has responded to me. I found I can get a 1000.00 rebate if I act quickly so I'll work on it and let you know what happens.

The old Defiant surely isn't worth $1,000, even in perfect working correctly. So I agree with you on acting quickly to take advantage of that rebate.