Talk to the hand

[James04]

Below was snipped from another current thread. I though it would be best to start a new thread.

Are there other manufacturers that have a similar customer service policy as Harman. I think they make a nice quality product but, I feel as stated below. They should do a little more regarding customer service. The thing that bothers me the most is that if your relationship with the selling dealer goes south for one reason or another you are out of luck. They state that the dealers are factory trained etc.. However my recent buying experience indicated otherwise. The sales person I got stuck with didn't know squat about the stove's I was interested in. Now that Harman was bought by another manufacturer I hope that they will change this policy.
Does anyone know if it is possible to go to another dealership for replacement parts and or warranty issues?
How can we as customers impress upon the manufacturers that the below customer service scenario would go a long way and pay off in the end.

James

"One more little piece of my mind. Obviously, someone who buys the premium brand (Harman) should expect to get premium service. It just makes sense that when you spend double what you could (on a bargain stove), that you should get some extra service for it. The first stove company that puts an 800 number in their stoves and ASKS the dealer to call them will, IMHO, be getting paid (in the end) for the extra couple employees it takes to answer the questions. I know that direct sellers (englander, etc,) are often required by their vendors to do this.

The other end of the same story - when someone spends 5 grand or even 10K for a fancy fireplace setup and calls the manufacturer.....and can get nothing but a referral back to the dealer (who may not have the answer).....it just does not look good. I know economics is at work - it costs a lot to answer the phone, but we are talking about companies that do 30-60 million a year.

A good dealer, of course, usually makes it so very few customer ever need to contact the stove maker. I would be surprised if 1% of our customers ever did so."

 

[webbie]

It should be possible to go to another dealershop or else contact the maker or rep. I use the word "should" because this too often depends on the mood of the dealer you end up going to!

My suggestion for most folks is, when possible, fix these problem OFF-SEASON. This generally means from Jan 15 to Aug or Sept 15. A hearth retailer can easily do 12x as much business in oct/nov as in the slow months, and this puts a price on EVERY SECOND of their time. I know since I went through it for 20+ years. 60+ hour weeks are typical, and when you try to solve problems you find voice mail at your manufacturer and reps also.

That all said - a warranty is a warranty from a legal perspective, and a person should be able to get things taken care of. We have a number of Quad dealers here who can probably offer more insight, but my initial guess is that the large public company that owns Harman now is MORE capable of providing service than the old entity. That does not mean each individual will be taken care of better....it still depends on the dealer. If a dealer sends a customer packing or hangs up the phone on him or her, not too much the poor customer can do (except normal customer stuff like BBB, county consumer affairs and legal).

 

[jqgs214]

Call Ford with a problem on your car. Let me know if they tell you to contact the local dealer? Or are you relating Harman to the more fancy mercedes benz? Same question!

 

[James04]

You can get your Ford serviced at any dealer in the country. Warranty issue or not. Ford certainly will attempt to get your issue resolved. I like to fix things myself provided I can find the correct information and parts.

James

 

[JohnnyBravo]

call apple while your comp is still under warranty. all the tech support you need. i went with the dealer in my town that seemed to have the most knowlage of products. other shops had 15 year old kids that knew where the wood stoves were but could not find the chimney. another shop had some guy from texas that would not get out from behind his desk, just opened up flyers and pointed at stoves across the room. both these shops had great products (PE, VC and Jotel). i ended up with a quadrafire because of the dealer.

 

[webbie]

The stove industry definitely rates behind many peer consumer businesses in the area of customer support. I rarely even hear of it being talked about. Strange. It is extra short term profit for the manufacturers, but I would suggest bad for the industry over the long term. Examples - the OWB thing - what is on the news? Good things about woodstoves? No, all we hear on the radio and in the paper here is about how bad OWB's are! So the compromise with the OWB manufacturers is hurting the industry big time PR wise.

Look at the thread on the Dutchwest with the problems. Is that person going to buy more VC's or even more stoves of any sort? I say no - he may find an old used smoke dragon, etc.

This is just two small examples. Multiply it times a few thousands and you get the idea.

Stove customers are, in general, not overly demanding. But they do want the same (middling) level of support they get with their car or computer, etc.

 

[elkimmeg]

There are two companies that has a 1-800 consumer care call center CFM Vermont Castings and Englander

Consumer Call Centre
410 Admiral Blvd.
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
L5T 2N6
Telephone: 1-800-668-5323
Facsimile: 1-877-565-2929


Corie sorry I was quick to correct my post .All fairness, we were talking about customers relationship with dealers not huge box stores

 

[Corie]

Whoa whoa. One company? What about us!

 

[Metal]

Maybe that would be a good addition to Hearth.com, a manufacturer phone book? If you want to test a company's true commitment to customer support/service check out their website and see how easy/difficult they make it to contact them, that would definitely weigh in on any decision I make. I did notice that England Stove Works has their 800 number posted on the first page of their website, VC's was under "contact us," which is commendable (I only bring these two up because they were in the previous posts, so I checked them out, I am sure there are plenty of others as well).

 

[webbie]

Whoa whoa. One company? What about us!

Ha, read the whole quote:
"The first stove company that puts an 800 number in their stoves and ASKS the dealer to call them will"

I am aware (and have said before) that most direct sales companies and companies that do biz with certain box and hardware shops are required to take consumer calls (and, if not required, it is certainly good bix to do so).......when I buy stuff at HD, it often says"
"Wait, don't return this to the store, call us!".....I actually enjoy that attitude because I know if the thing is missing a couple screws I would get them....

Service and support can be done in many ways - most all of them satisfactory IF the correct attitude is in place. I also loved Crutchfield (won't buy Car Audio anywhere else) because they made it so that a fool like me could actually take apart car dashboard with no problems! Now that is saying something. You won't find me at the local car audio place or even Best Buy...

But for the average person who buys from a dealer, the dealer makes the difference as to whether the customer is happy. They are the first stop...usually.

Actually, thinking more of it, the 800 number is not as important today except as a symbol. Phone calls are free or cheap. It is the willingness and ability to solve problems, whether through the dealer, the phone, email or even here.

 

[Metal]

As long as the dealer stays in the business and doesn't lose the line you should be fine, but it is nice to know that you can call the name on the stove, pipe, etc. and talk to someone if you have a problem 5, 10 or 20 years down the road. Of course today the manufacturer might be gone by then as well (or bought up by one of the big guys).

 

[jpl1nh]

Woodstock stove company provides out of this world support for their stoves. I've never dealt with anyone better in any industry..period!

 

[webbie]

Thats true, jp, we have never had a single complaint. But look at pure economics and you'll see that they can afford to (and have to) have good support.......it does cost money to answer questions and spend time on the phone. Just for a little history, we can look at VC and say they set the standard long ago in Direct Sales for customer service. Then they started selling through dealers...although at a very low discount (to the dealers) and still were able to have great service. Then they had to start selling through more dealers and give a better discount due to the competitive nature of the biz - result was that dealers (as it should be) had to do more of the service and support. Now, today, they sell through distributors and then dealers, meaning that VC ends up making less of the money. Yes, customers don't care about that stuff, but it does matter. The result is that the dealers and distributors HAVE to take up the slack....in other words, VC cannot BOTH sell LOTS of product at substantial discounts and also speak to each customer for an hour (over the years).

Car manufacturers and companies like Apple have also followed the idea of "direct sales" although you may not see it. In other words, the dealer who sells your car does not make a big %. My apple dealer, if he still exists, makes way less than 10% on a sale. That does not keep the doors open! So the result is that APPLE now makes the Big Bucks and also has to provide the world class service.

Now, no doubt that is all economics 101, and dealers running interference for the manufacturer is also Service 101. But dealers can only go so far. All of this assumes the the product itself is marketable, and within the "normal" realm of reliability, etc.

When the product does not meet these criteria, everyone in the chain suffers....maybe the dealer and customer more, because they are on the front lines.

I still say it is all in the way things are handled - with a smile and a call back. Customers are very understanding....especially wood burning types. When we imported Tarm, we had our share of problems...some of them BIG....like, for instance, a $6,000 boiler that develops a leak. That is a big customer service issue. I admit this is not my forte, but I had a helper (my only Tarm employee) who was INCREDIBLE at taking care of these problems. He would always be on exactly the same level as the customer, and somehow the customer was always pleased! What did all these horrible problems cost us? Next to nothing. The total amount of warranties that we ended up paying for all the millions of dollars of Tarm boilers that were in the field (these had 20 year warranties!) was less than 1% of our gross sales - AND, Tarm made good to us for a portion of that!

Think about that. I was always amazed when Dave would handle a problem and then tell me "The guy accepted a credit of $175, which he is going to use to get his friend (who is a welder) to come fix the problem. Whew! A situation like that handled wrong could easily result in lawsuits and claimed for many thousands, or tens of thousand of dollars. But being ON THE SIDE OF THE CUSTOMER as far as attitude saved the day.

Again, I admit that I am poor at this myself. That is why I stayed in the back room and warehouse...and eventually learned this computer stuff.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I agree with that. I deal with loggers and sawmillers who are spending in some cases millions of dollars on what amounts to prototype equipment. There just aren't that many units produced, so it's hard to work the bugs out of a design when there are only a few dozen machines in the field. Now you'd think a guy who's got his financial security on the line would start demanding satisfaction, but like farmers, loggers and sawmillers are used to modifying their equipment to their needs and working with manufacturers to improve designs and functionality. It's just the way the game is played. Of course, as Craig points out, you have to treat people with respect and be responsive to their needs. The first thing a customer in trouble wants is to keep the dialog open. Stop returning phone calls and/or emails, and you've basically lost a customer. Make a habit of it, and you're out of business. Word travels fast in a small pond. The Internet just made the ocean into a pond.

 

[jpl1nh]

As a small business owner, I've found that working for a fair solution for customers that are having a problem (not that mine ever do :coolsmile: ) is an opportunity to earn a long term customer. I may not always have the news they want to hear but if I'm fair and willing to work with them it is appreciated. Eric and Craig, as both of you point out it doesn't always cost a lot either, the customer is simply looking to have a fair shake. I think the same is true for dealer's working on behalf of a manufacturer and certainly manufacturer's themselves. Your points, Craig, about margins, dealer's taking over on behalf, etc are great points. Woodstock has the advantage of being a factory direct company, and they are high end too. As a customer you have a choice on what you are going to buy, and you for the most part get what you pay for. Low end tends not to have service, high end does have service. One last point regarding warranties and the legal obligations they carry. When a manufacturer or dealer provides such poor service or response that you are relegated to handling a claim by forcing the legal issue as a customer, it just doesn't get much worse than that! They may be contractually obligated but we sure all hope we don't need to go there for satisfaction.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

service should be given based on the buisness model, now im not going to debate which is better , been there done that. but, if sombody calls me , im going to try to help. i get calls from folks that do not have our units but were directed to us mistakenly, i will generally take a minute and at least google the manufacturer, and see if i can get them headed in the right direction. find em a phone number , or pull a locator to find them a dealer close if thats the way the company in question works. its not ever going to be "aint my stove , aint my problem in my shop as long as i run it. i may not be able to fix it , but i'll take a minute to send the caller in the right direction. why? simple, they called for help, i help, what does that do for me? even simpler, next time they want a stove , they will hopefully remember that phone call and call me again about one of my units.(at least thats the party line) in reality, its simply the right thing to do.

 

[kutch2001]

I got a similar impression of all the dealers I have visited recently looking for replacement parts for my pellet stove (yes, an englander).

I have a strong aversion to paying retail price for anything (makes my stomach queasy) so was canvassing the area to the few pellet stove shops I could find, and so far every single one of them has told me the same thing, "we can't help you with an Englander stove". Judging by words of one of the people tonight, "They're Junk", leads me to believe they won't even try to help me (just wanted a used part off any stove that would work) as the dealer didn't make their hefty commission off of the initial sale and doesn't want anything to do with a company that sells direct to big box stores with little room for markup. As someone else pointed out think it has more to do with the "culture" of pellet/wood stove dealerships in looking for the big sale rather than helping out any poor cheap schmo. The same store who told me they're junk quoted someone a price of $275 / ton for pellets, and next person was quoted $260 / ton.... I am saying to myself WTF is this..

Anyways, moral for my post is I had an opportunity tonight to buy a Baby Countryside stove that had a bad control panel (story of my life recently). It was listed for a great price, only 3 years old, and fired up once. I did my due diligence and searched to find replacement parts for it, but couldn't even find a price list of parts... That alone is enough to turn me away when can't find basic information such as that. Am assuming if walked into a dealer and tell them straight up "I bought the stove elsewhere" they would say "go find your part elsewhere". Even if a wire is bad, if have to go to a dealer to get parts, they lost a sale (unless giving it away). Might be a great stove and no one ever has problems with it but if information isn't at my fingertips then it useless to me.

Edit: After reading stoveguy2esw post, wanted to clarify that up until recently have not had a single problem with my 25-pdvc working like a champ, until plugging in the Kill-a-watt device, then trying to dink around w/a fuse (all my fault)... The stove has worked flawlessly. I'm frugal but ordered the part tonight. Will PM u when i get the new board in to see 'bout walking through the low burn settings. **End thread highjack** (sorry)

 

[stoveguy2esw]

junk huh? i know you didnt say that so im not unloading on you kutch trust me ,i dont do that. ive heard that in the past from customers , i cant get anyone to work on it cause they didnt sell it to me. service is service IMHO now granted some dealers are probably sore cause they feel we take sales away from them selling in the DIY market, probably true. i usually do not bash dealers in here and im not going to start now. but i had an e mail today, this morning from a person who told me what a guy in a stove shop told him about my company, virtually all of it completely false. i replied back to the fellow explaining that sombody was feeding him information that simply wasnt correct, he e mailed me at work because he was worried that posting in here would get him labeled a "troll" i doubt that would happen knowing the company i keep in here. and i know that this was just one guy and doesnt represent the whole of dealers out there many of whom in here i respect and support in the forum because they deserve it helping folks the way they do. just to support my arguement on service , i also today had a fellow who owned a harmon woodstove, he was looking at one of my units in the local HD and wanted to ask some questions about whether my unit would work better for him (actually the 28-3500 model add on furnace) after discusing his setup (boiler , water heat no ductwork) i advised him to check with his local harmon dealer about getting the optional blower for his existing unit to help get heat moving up his stairwells better the stove he has does ok, but needs a kick for the really cold nights,(house was a cape, central stairwells) essentially i probably lost the sale, but he will end up with a better situation for less and will keep an exceptional woodstove. i could have just said , heck yeah , it would work great! but i didnt , cause service is service, and i would have done him a disservice doing so.

im not making this up, but im close to hijacking this thread so i'll close with , kutch, let me know if you have no luck , i might have a trick or two up my sleeve

 

[begreen]

It's not uncommon for the competition and the uneducated to disparage other brands. It happens all the time in the construction trade (Oh, you got a bid from that guy....) and auto sales. This makes it a bit harder for the consumer to sort through the crap to get to some sort of realty point. But I figure if someone is dissing a competitor, perhaps this guy is a bit insecure in his own product.

 

[webbie]

As a salesperson, we usually did knock the competition - at least to some degree. We found their weak points and made the attack...usually with some truthful backing. That's competition and capitalism!

If I still owned a stove store, and a customer came in asking for a Woodstock Soapstone, I'd say they don't sell through dealers. But I could not knock them, since i did sell them for a couple years! But if the person needed a lot of installation and delivery, I would have put the "fear" into them about having to get someone to do all that! Heck, I had a bunch of stoves in the warehouse and bills due!

Now then it came to Taiwan Dutchwests....well, anything goes (or went) - free reign to dump on this maker and brand (back then).....one of my salesman would say with a straight face "I heard you fire them up, and they crack like an egg". I thought that was pretty inventive.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

yeah , i hear ya BG.
but isnt it petty to have to do that? the brand you carry should be able to stand on its merits. i feel mine does, therefore , there isnt a reason for me to shoot down other brands. if im selling , im extoling my brand , not bashing others to make mine look better. IMHO doing so only presents your brand as being adequate, not exceptional. by acknowledging a brand when asked as , yeah its a good uniot , but mine has this, you establish the "brand x" unit as adequate, but you elevate your own.

put it this way, our biggest advantage is price point due to the market we sell in, if i say , "brand x" is junk , ours is better and will work for you , i just belittled the competition and in doing so i reduced my brand to "capable"

now if i say , yeah , "brand x " is very similar in performance , but ours is half the price and can back it up, then im putting my unit on the "brand x" units level as far as performance, but i win the price war so i make the sale due to price point.

now if i say , "brand x" is a good unit , but mine has this and is this much better because of it, then i just portrayed my unit as "better"unit , not just adequate, and make the sale due to performance ya get what you pay for, which is the full package with a higher end unit.

all this said, the higher end units(not to name brands to single anyone out or leave them out) are exceptional units with a high end package that comes with them. there are stoves out there which have things that my line doesnt offer, but in my opinion its a different market at that level, we are the chevy truck of the industry i acknowledge that, but we are far from "yugo status" and portraying us that way really reduces the rolls units to chevy status by comparison in the eyes of a savvy customer.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

As a salesperson, we usually did knock the competition - at least to some degree. We found their weak points and made the attack...usually with some truthful backing. That's competition and capitalism!

If I still owned a stove store, and a customer came in asking for a Woodstock Soapstone, I'd say they don't sell through dealers. But I could not knock them, since i did sell them for a couple years! But if the person needed a lot of installation and delivery, I would have put the "fear" into them about having to get someone to do all that! Heck, I had a bunch of stoves in the warehouse and bills due!

Now then it came to Taiwan Dutchwests....well, anything goes (or went) - free reign to dump on this maker and brand (back then).....one of my salesman would say with a straight face "I heard you fire them up, and they crack like an egg". I thought that was pretty inventive.

well yeah web, usually i'd comment , yeah its a great stove , but darned if they aint awful proud of em (picking on the price point without bashing em). part of the game i know, but it takes real salesmanship to elevate a different brand then sell one of yours cause you just showed the customer that as good as that stove is, mine is better, or mine is just as good and isnt as expensive, thats the part thats actually fun. and the customer is happier cause he knows he didnt "settle" he got the best unit for his situation.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

thanks kutch, and definately feel free to hit me up anytime. are you certain the board is blown? im trying to remember if we talked, its been right busy at the shop lately. if we have not talked yet personally , hold off on the board till i can chat with you.