Talk with a guy down the road today.

[karl]

He heats with wood. I have about the same size house as he does and I asked him how much wood he went through. He said he didn't know he doesn't stack it when he spits it. He did say he stacks it on his porch right before he burns it and described how big of a pile he puts up there. From how he describes it and how many times he piles wood up there, I estimated he goes through about 5 cords a year. He has a Buck cat stove and he says he fills it 3 to 4 times a day when its cold out. I looked at his wood pile and its not even split yet. He said he splits it in the fall and just leaves it in a pile. So he is obivioulsy burning green wood. Since this is the only guy around here that I know who heats with wood, I am trying to figure my usage.

How much season wood would it take to compare with 5 cords of pretty green stuff? Mine might not be compeletley seasoned this year but at least it will have been split and stacked for 7 months.

 

[webbie]

Unsplit is not always green. If the logs are relatively small and of certain species, they can dry quite a bit without being split. Then it dries more when he splits is and even more if it is on the porch a couple of days.

So he may be burning 25% moisture wood - a little higher than ideal, but still works. It's hard to make a comparison like you ask for without actually taking a moisture meter to a piece of the stuff he uses.

 

[nshif]

I have an old guy down the road that only heats with wood. He has a Quad insert in a rather massive rock chiminey. He is only lined up beyond the old damper (removed ) with no block off plate only a front surround. He has NO idea what secondary burn is or how to operate this stove. Ive tried to enlighten him on these issues but have you ever tried to change the thinking of a 90 year old man??
He only burns oak and probably has 15 plus cords of beautifly dry wood stacked and still cuts 5 cord a year.. he says he burns 7 cords a year. If he was useing his stove right hed probably be using 3 or 4. My point is to try to compare what someone down the street is doing it may not apply to you.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I agree, it's hard to say. And some people lie about their firewood consumption (for whatever reason). Plus, their house and habits and temperature preferences are probably different than yours.

I say put up as much wood as you can and hope for the best. Any you have left over will be a whole lot better next year.

 

[agz124]

This will be my first year burning wood so forgive me for asking but.... What is a secondary burn? I just bought and installed a quad 4300 so I would imagine it is the same as the above mentioned 90 year old man's stove. Thanks

 

[jtp10181]

Look at page 2 of this brochure

(broken link removed)

 

[begreen]

Secondary & tertiary burns are the burning of volatile gases from the wood. In days of yore, these gases would pass unburnt up the chimney. Modern stoves create a longer path for the exhaust gases and introduce oxygen into these gases to force them to burn . At the top of your stove you will notice a set of secondary tubes which is where the air is introduced. When your stove is hot you will regularly enjoy this show.

I've posted a youtube video link to some secondary burning at this posting:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6247/
and still shots:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3402/

 

[karl]

I find it funny reading brochures. I guess I'm just a critical thinker, but I always seem to spot some sort of BS in them. Maybe I'm wrong here.

The brochure says: Over half the hear generated by a Quadra-Fire wood stove is from burning the smoke that would otherwise build creosote in your chimney and pollute the air.

Half the heat? Hmmm? Let's see a regular fireplace is about 10% efficient because it sends smoke and heat up the chimney. And an old smoke dragon is about 50% efficient because it sends smoke up the chimney, and some heat. And the Quads are 74%-79.8% efficient because they burn the smoke instead of sending it up the chimney. So if a smoke dragon is 50% and the quads are as high as 79.8% that's a 29.9% increase. Where do they get the over half? Out of thin air?

Of course I can't let PE off the hook completely. I just bought their Summit insert and their brochures says 97,000 btus on cord wood. The quad 5100i, which seems comparable to the Summit says 75,000 btus. the Regency I3100 also says 75,000. I'm willing to bet they all put out about the same amount heat of since they have the same size firebox. Atleast mine sounds better, even if it's lie. I guess it's not good enough to tell someone, We make a good stove and you'll be happy with, but it's really not any better than our competitors.

 

[Gooserider]

I find it funny reading brochures. I guess I'm just a critical thinker, but I always seem to spot some sort of BS in them. Maybe I'm wrong here.

The brochure says: Over half the hear generated by a Quadra-Fire wood stove is from burning the smoke that would otherwise build creosote in your chimney and pollute the air.

Half the heat? Hmmm? Let's see a regular fireplace is about 10% efficient because it sends smoke and heat up the chimney. And an old smoke dragon is about 50% efficient because it sends smoke up the chimney, and some heat. And the Quads are 74%-79.8% efficient because they burn the smoke instead of sending it up the chimney. So if a smoke dragon is 50% and the quads are as high as 79.8% that's a 29.9% increase. Where do they get the over half? Out of thin air?

Of course I can't let PE off the hook completely. I just bought their Summit insert and their brochures says 97,000 btus on cord wood. The quad 5100i, which seems comparable to the Summit says 75,000 btus. the Regency I3100 also says 75,000. I'm willing to bet they all put out about the same amount heat of since they have the same size firebox. Atleast mine sounds better, even if it's lie. I guess it's not good enough to tell someone, We make a good stove and you'll be happy with, but it's really not any better than our competitors.

Well you know what they say - Figures lie and [strike]liars[/strike] advertising departments figure... :roll: See some of the other posts discussing stove statistics, where we discuss how output figures are established - bottom line is that a given size firebox will put out a certain number of BTU's in total, and the question becomes how hot does one want to burn the stove? The hotter you burn, the more heat you get out in a given time, but the shorter your burn will be before you need to refuel.

Some companies take their stats from different burns - a short hot burn to give "peak BTU's" and a long low temp burn for "burn time". When Elk and I did our tour up at VC, their engineer showed us a spreadsheet graph where they had plotted heat output vs. time, running the same stove at different settings with "identical" loads of wood - The area under the curve was equal to the total heat output of the load, and was the SAME in every case. The shortest curve had an incredibly high peak (and was seriously over firing the stove) and a 4 hour burn time. The longest burn time was almost 24 hours, but was only putting out "useable" (stove surface over 300*F) heat for about two hours of that. The optimal curve, which they used for ALL the numbers in their manual had a moderate peak, but was basically flat for about 8-9 hours when it dropped sharply for about 10 hours of time above the 300* mark. (because they use one curve for all the numbers, they say this is why VC tends to run lower numbers than other stoves with comparable firebox sizes - they also prefer to be conservative on the area heated estimate)

The Quad claim is possibly a bit of a stretch, but your efficiency number on the smoke dragon is a bit high, while the Quad number is also a bit fuzzy - the EPA spec doesn't actually do effiency testing, they use an arbitrary number. It is also worth noting that while a smoke dragon sends less heat up the chimney than a fireplace, it still sends up more than a modern stove in an effort to keep the chimney hot enough to reduce creosote buildup.

Actual experience suggests an EPA stove will use about a third less wood than a smoke dragon, so how you want to translate that into efficiency gets a bit fuzzy - sometimes just which way you figure the value can make a difference.

Gooserider

 

[agz124]

Thanks for the info about secondary burn, that is amazing. The pictures were especially helpful.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

Your welcome. I think you're going to love that new stove. Be sure to have plenty of dry wood ready to go.

 

[detmurds]

Also, I would say if you have wood that needs to be split for this winter,....you might want to do it now! This is my second year burning with an Avolon stove, and not once turning on the furnace, you have to have dry/seasoned wood. Get that stuff split, and if it is really green, just spit it into smaller pieces for quick drying.

 

[karl]

Detmurds,

I have almost 4 cords split now. I split had it split by the first of june. I am trying to add to it now, but I'm really busy and not making alot of headway. Besides, it's roasting hot here now. I'm hoping to do another or three cords this fall but that stuff won't be dry until next year.

 

[wg_bent]

Thanks for the info about secondary burn, that is amazing. The pictures were especially helpful.

Thanks

If your new to a modern stove, you'll find the amount of fire (flame) in the firebox to be a little disconcerting at first. You can expect the ENTIRE fire box to be full of flame at times. Don't fret... it's normal and your stove is just doing it's job.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the info about secondary burn, that is amazing. The pictures were especially helpful.

Thanks

If your new to a modern stove, you'll find the amount of fire (flame) in the firebox to be a little disconcerting at first. You can expect the ENTIRE fire box to be full of flame at times. Don't fret... it's normal and your stove is just doing it's job.

Actually that depends on the type of stove it is. If it is a "burn tube" type stove like a P.E. where the secondary combustion takes place in the main firebox, you are quite correct. Some people even say that the fireworks display is a significant advantage of this style of stove.

However if you have a Cat stove, or one of the secondary combustion chamber non-cats like a VC Everburn, where the smoke volatiles are drawn off and burned in a secondary chamber rather than in the main firebox, you will see much less in the way of visible fire. Some reports say that a VC cat will have logs that just glow a dull red with an occasional flicker of flame, giving even less flame than you would get with an open fire. The secondary combustion is still occuring, just not where it is easily visible.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

AGZ has a Quadrafire 4300,. He gets the light show as soon as it gets cool enough to try the new stove.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

I find it funny reading brochures. I guess I'm just a critical thinker, but I always seem to spot some sort of BS in them. Maybe I'm wrong here.

The brochure says: Over half the hear generated by a Quadra-Fire wood stove is from burning the smoke that would otherwise build creosote in your chimney and pollute the air.

Half the heat? Hmmm? Let's see a regular fireplace is about 10% efficient because it sends smoke and heat up the chimney. And an old smoke dragon is about 50% efficient because it sends smoke up the chimney, and some heat. And the Quads are 74%-79.8% efficient because they burn the smoke instead of sending it up the chimney. So if a smoke dragon is 50% and the quads are as high as 79.8% that's a 29.9% increase. Where do they get the over half? Out of thin air?

Of course I can't let PE off the hook completely. I just bought their Summit insert and their brochures says 97,000 btus on cord wood. The quad 5100i, which seems comparable to the Summit says 75,000 btus. the Regency I3100 also says 75,000. I'm willing to bet they all put out about the same amount heat of since they have the same size firebox. Atleast mine sounds better, even if it's lie. I guess it's not good enough to tell someone, We make a good stove and you'll be happy with, but it's really not any better than our competitors.

heat output and efficiency ratings are two different animals. stoves with higher efficiency ratings do not necessarily give off more heat due to size, construction, etc. they just consume more of the fuel available before it leaves the unit out the flue. so, the fact that the secondaries do burn very hot when compared to the primaries in that unit , or a pre EPA unit, it also allows the primary fire to be a slower burning burn which increases burn time per stick of wood while the secondaries deliver the bigger part of the heat consuming the residue from the primary fire. the statement quad makes is probably not far off the mark if it is at all.

 

[detmurds]

Detmurds,

I have almost 4 cords split now. I split had it split by the first of june. I am trying to add to it now, but I'm really busy and not making alot of headway. Besides, it's roasting hot here now. I'm hoping to do another or three cords this fall but that stuff won't be dry until next year.

4 cords? Yes, it depends on the size of your house but 4 cords is an amount of wood I could not have gotten by with to be honest. Not once did I turn on my furnace. Splittling in in June (2007?) isn't really enough time in my opinion, but good luck.

I'm on your side, just thought I was giving some good info,...that is all.

 

[karl]

I hauled some wood out of the the woods today from behind my house. I got two face cords split and probably two more yet to do. I lucked out. I found a slighty hung up tree that had been there for years. It turns out, it is oak and it had a hollow center. When I split it, it was dry as can be. I bet the stuff is ready to burn now. I hope the rest of it is that way too. I'm kinda worried about not having enought dry wood this year.

 

[BrotherBart]

Detmurds,

I have almost 4 cords split now. I split had it split by the first of june. I am trying to add to it now, but I'm really busy and not making alot of headway. Besides, it's roasting hot here now. I'm hoping to do another or three cords this fall but that stuff won't be dry until next year.

4 cords? Yes, it depends on the size of your house but 4 cords is an amount of wood I could not have gotten by with to be honest. Not once did I turn on my furnace. Splittling in in June (2007?) isn't really enough time in my opinion, but good luck.

I'm on your side, just thought I was giving some good info,...that is all.

Been heating this joint with five cords of oak cut, split and stacked from April to July for many, many years. Not the optimum burn that stove commercials are made of but when you don't have any other source of heat it seems to do just fine.

This is some cut last June crankin last December. Gotta remember, the stuff you cut in April is a year old when you burn it next April.

 

[karl]

Bart,


I'm wearing shorts in April. Well, the first two weeks are a bit cold but the last two the furnace is off. What part of Virginia are you in? Must be the mountains.

 

[BrotherBart]

Bart,


I'm wearing shorts in April. Well, the first two weeks are a bit cold but the last two the furnace is off. What part of Virginia are you in? Must be the mountains.

Over by DC. Average low in the middle of April is 40 meaning 30's not unusual. And the basement office will be in the low thirtys in the morning until May. I am in shorts in April too. But they are made by Jockey and worn under jeans and long sleeve shirts.

Furnace? What's a furnace?

 

[carpniels]

Hi Karl,

Shorts in April?? That does not mean anything. I am in upstate NY and these locals here are so used to cold, they wear shorts in Dec/Jan and bring the back out in March. Any day at 40 degrees in winter here and I see guys with shorts.

I think they are nuts. But who am I? I walk in underwear in Feb because the stove heats the room to over 75 degrees!

Carpniels

 

[detmurds]

Detmurds,

I have almost 4 cords split now. I split had it split by the first of june. I am trying to add to it now, but I'm really busy and not making alot of headway. Besides, it's roasting hot here now. I'm hoping to do another or three cords this fall but that stuff won't be dry until next year.

4 cords? Yes, it depends on the size of your house but 4 cords is an amount of wood I could not have gotten by with to be honest. Not once did I turn on my furnace. Splittling in in June (2007?) isn't really enough time in my opinion, but good luck.

I'm on your side, just thought I was giving some good info,...that is all.

Been heating this joint with five cords of oak cut, split and stacked from April to July for many, many years. Not the optimum burn that stove commercials are made of but when you don't have any other source of heat it seems to do just fine.

This is some cut last June crankin last December. Gotta remember, the stuff you cut in April is a year old when you burn it next April.

I'm not saying it cannot be done, just saying that it is better to have it dry for about a year in the "ideal world", but I understand this is the "real world"!

 

[karl]

I know it's not ideal, but since this is my first year burning, any heat I get is better than none. I just keep cutting and splitting every evening I can and when I get another a face cord done. I say to myself that's a weeks worth of heat. Besides, since I spent all this money on a stove this year, I am sure we are going to have a record warm winter. The big advantage I have over you guys is that I'm out of town two weeks a month, so I'll burn half of what you do. The down side is, two weeks a month the furnace is keeping the house 55.